"Ball Data" vs. "Club Head Data" Which Would You Prefer to Know?

[syhlif32]

Not having a LM but wouldn't face impact tape/labels together with a GC2 tell you pretty much all you need to know?
Know AoA is not there but can't that be guesstimated from the loft of the club face?

As a side effect I can't think of any swing improvement that has a better effect on lowing the score than hitting the center of the club face.

[Dax]

There are a lot more details that club head data give you. The problem is that is too much for the average golfer to decipher and more importantly know how to correct. I think for most, including myself, you need an instructor to work with you on the data so you know what to fix and what to look for. I combine all of this with video for swings as that is also very important. It is amazing the bad habits one picks up through the season.

[syhlif32]

There are a lot more details that club head data give you

Not really! Club head speed, path and angle at impact.. AoA would be nice too but you can make some assumption knowing your loft.
If you know the impact position on club face you can figure out what the club data from the ball flight
Would think that people buying launch monitors got a good idea of ball flight laws?
But maybe not.
Anyway just wanted to point out a affordable way to gain club head info together with a ball only launch monitor like GC2

Instruction is a different subject. Didn't do much for TW the last 4 years. Hope you got a better instructor.

[bubba22]

If you know the impact position on club face you can figure out what the club data from the ball flight

What do you mean?

[Dax]

TM and I suspect FS, provides nine data readings for club data. That is a lot of information from my perspective. I'm also not sure how just knowing the impact position will help you figure out the other data parameters. I am definitely not an expert on the ball flight laws.

[syhlif32]

ball-flight-laws.jpg

If you hit the center of the club head you get the ball light as you see on the attachment.
And see on you GC2. ( assuming you got a GC2?)

If your impact is towards the heel of the club face it got a bias of fade/ slice.
Impact towards the toe give the ball a bias towards a fade
Low on the club face you get lower launch angle and less spin
opposite high on the club face.
All impacts off center gives less ball speed.
This goes for irons too just to a lesser effect.

I am no expert on ball flight laws ether but this is easy enough to remember and much more simple if you hit the center of the club face.

If you do not know the impact position than you really do not have any idea why the shot came out the way it did and you are just wasting your time.

[bubba22]

What you are describing is the gear effect which is quite complex. The gear effect will vary depending on the club design and will be different for woods vs irons. Knowing the impact position will not allow one to determine club data from ball flight even in center hit. As you get more off center contact it even gets more difficult to determine club data. As well one will not be able to determine club speed/angle of attack and more importantly the relative amount and differences of club face angle and club path at impact.

[Frans@france]

.. AoA would be nice too but you can make some assumption knowing your loft....

I can't see how you can assume anything about AoA based on static loft. Only when having speed, dynamic loft, launch angle and spin you have enough information to make some assumptions however the range of the possible values is so larger that your assumption can be 10 degrees off.

Let me give you an example using some of the "rules of thumb" calculations given by Trackman

If the spin was 6000 rpm with a clubspeed of 93 mph and the ball launchAngle at 18* the following could be estimated
a) Spinloft between 21.5* - 28.0*
b1) At 21.5* spinloft the dynamic loft could be 25.25* and AoA +3.75*
b2) At 28.0* spinloft the dynamic loft could be 22.0* and AoA -6.0*

So the assumption is Dynamic loft between 22* and 25.25* and AoA between -6* and +3.75 Don't think that these assumption would really help....

...If you hit the center of the club head you get the ball light as you see on the attachment....

The term "center of the clubhead" is not 100% the correct definition/definition. It's the alignment of the COG of both the ball and the club that matters.

The COG of the clubhead is not always in the center of the club face which explains why gear effect happens more often then expected even when the marker showed an center impact.

If your impact is towards the heel of the club face it got a bias of fade/ slice...

[S](edit:Heel impact would have a closed face angle at the impact spot because of the bulge, the bias would be hook. You need the toe to fade/slice.)[/S]

But then you came inside-out with a square face which will compensate the fade/slice because of the impact postion with a hook axis tilt making the ball going dead straight.

However in your next shot you get the exact impact position with the same path and face but now with another shaft lean or angle of attack (so another spinloft). That changed spinloft will change the total amount of spin-axis tilt and now the ball will hook or fade ...

[Dax]

I think my head is starting to hurt now Fran's...

[bubba22]

Thanks Frans. Your insight is much appreciated. Club data is quite complex. As you even point out center of club face is not simple. Cog of club is is a better description which will vary from club to club if I am not mistaken.

[bubba22]

Just for our understanding Fran's:

If you have a flat driver face, gear effect for heel shots would be fade producing and gear effect for toe shots will be draw producing. The bulge on drivers will negate the gear effect to cause heel shots to draw more (negate the fade bias) and toe shots to fade more (negate the draw bias). Am I thinking this the right way?

[Frans@france]

Cog of club is is a better description which will vary from club to club if I am not mistaken.

correct

[Frans@france]

Just for our understanding Fran's:

If you have a flat driver face, gear effect for heel shots would be fade producing and gear effect for toe shots will be draw producing. The bulge on drivers will negate the gear effect to cause heel shots to draw more (negate the fade bias) and toe shots to fade more (negate the draw bias). Am I thinking this the right way?

Yes, sorry my edit on the previous post was not correct as written there

[flat face]On a square/square shot but off-center the gear effect itself will make the heel shot generate a serious amount of slice spin and the toe shot a serious amount of hook spin. The ball will start almost down the target line and then curve extremely to the left or right.

The bulge is there to force the initial direction in the opposite position that the spin would take the ball. So the initial direction becomes left for a slice and right for the hook. Thus the gear effect itself stays but because of the new initial direction the square/square off-center shot now becomes a fade/draw where the ball ends close to the target line.

[Frans@france]

I think my head is starting to hurt now Fran's...

mine also looking at the mistake I made in the edit

[bubba22]

Yes, sorry my edit on the previous post was not correct as written there

[flat face]On a square/square shot but off-center the gear effect itself will make the heel shot generate a serious amount of slice spin and the toe shot a serious amount of hook spin. The ball will start almost down the target line and then curve extremely to the left or right.

The bulge is there to force the initial direction in the opposite position that the spin would take the ball. So the initial direction becomes left for a slice and right for the hook. Thus the gear effect itself stays but because of the new initial direction the square/square off-center shot now becomes a fade/draw where the ball ends close to the target line.

Ok that's what I thought. So the bulge will start the ball in the opposite direction of the gear effect. So toe hits - bulge will start ball to right and gear will be draw/hook. Heel shots - bulge will start ball left but gear effect will be fade/slice. Right?

[Frans@france]

Ok that's what I thought. So the bulge will start the ball in the opposite direction of the gear effect. So toe hits - bulge will start ball to right and gear will be draw/hook. Heel shots - bulge will start ball left but gear effect will be fade/slice. Right?

Yeap. and the fun really start if you have a cog aligned hit and then have a very high rate of clubhead (closing) rotation. The question then is if that closure causes the same like effect as the the gear effect. Because if that rate is high enough the face will rotate during the ball compression phase just like with an off-center hit.

..looking for the head exploding smilie

[bubba22]

Like relationships....... Its complicated!!!!

[mthunt]

How in the world did Ben Hogan or Byron Nelson ever play golf without a protee? LOL.

[Frans@france]

How in the world did Ben Hogan or Byron Nelson ever play golf without a protee? LOL.

using the same thing that Granth Thakkar uses : a well connected brain

[bubba22]

I agree. None of this crap is needed. Wayne Gretzky just had an outside rink to learn his trade but now the current hockey players have trainer, sports psychologist, power skating coach, strength and conditioning, managers etc. if its available, why not, as long as the price is right. The most effective way to improve the golf game is practice and help from a golf coach. I don't know about you guys but I am not going to the PGA tour. Hell not even the LPGA or Champions tour, ever. My son is a competitive golfer and his coach is a Trackman guy so he analyzes his swing all the time. I think anything that allows one to keep a swing and perhaps practice putts/chips over the winter is good.

[Dax]

I agree Bubba. It's great to keep practicing, but also to know when something is wrong and to then ask for help. In my TM sessions these last couple of weeks I notice that I had lost some power. Fortunately I am traveling and was able to visit my golf coach and within an hour we were able to fix a couple of issues that I had begun to do in an effort to try and find that extra distance that ended up creating a lot of inefficient things. I now know what to look for over the rest of the winter and I'm sure glad my wife decided to go for an iPhone 6 as Not only am I able to watch for certain things from from club data, i can also get the good frame rates when its connected to my TM to take some video of my swing every once and a while to ensure I keep things in check.