standing water

[rancherJ]

Can it be assumed that where there is a sustantial amt. of water, in an area that would be normally be "high and dry" (ie: early spring or after major downpour)that a free lift is allowable. Or does this decision have to be made for the entire course as with the example of a lift and clean ruling in tournament play.

[spidey]

I'm guessing that you mean that a normal water hazard is overflowing it's normal boundaries, and there aren't any markers to indicate where the hazard ends and the standing water begins.

My guess would be that the 'usual' demarcation of the hazard remains, and anything outside of that would be casual water. That would seem fair according to the way the course was initially laid out.

Can't wait to hear the ruling.

[Kilroy]

Well, since we have not heard form Gary yet, I'll take a stab at this...
Casual water relief applies whenever your ball or stance is in an area saturated to the point of creating puddles around your shoes. Closest point of relief (dry spot) not nearer the hole, no penalty.
Water outside the stakes from an overflowing hazard is casual water.

[spidey]

Rule 25 (Def'n excerpt)

An “abnormal ground condition” is any casual water, ground under repair or hole, cast or runway on the course made by a burrowing animal, a reptile or a bird.

Rule 25-1

b. Relief

Except when the ball is in a water hazard or a lateral water hazard, a player may obtain relief from interference by an abnormal ground condition as follows:

Rule 25-1b-i

Through the Green: If the ball lies through the green, the nearest point of relief shall be determined which is not in a hazard or on a putting green. The player shall lift the ball and drop it without penalty within one club-length of and not nearer the hole than the nearest point of relief , on a part of the course which avoids interference (as defined) by the condition and is not in a hazard or on a putting green

[Gary Hill]

Jeffrey-

You are absolutely correct. Any area of the course which is temporarily underwater, but would be dry land in July would automatically be casual water.

The decision for the entire course to be played as "lift,clean, and place" is usually determined by the fact that due to wet conditions most balls would plug on impact or be covered with mud, rather than extensive areas of casual water on the course.

spidey-

Areas of casual water do not have to be caused by the overflow from a water hazard.

However, any overflow of water from a water hazard which is outside the margin of the hazard is casual water.

But now we know you at least have ACCESS to a rule book.

[GarthM]

Given the responses so far, a question is raised...

Last week at the Meadows East #8 I landed in the far end of the left-hand fairway bunker, not in the large puddle but beyond it by about 15 feet. When I went to take my stance I did indeed encounter "casual water" around my shoes.

Believing that since I was in the bunker and was not entitled to relief I played the shot as is. Could I have taken relief?

Thanks in advance.

Garth.

[spidey]

His highness the RulesNut says...
But now we know you at least have ACCESS to a rule book.

But.... I like your interpretations much better than having to trudge through endless miles of legalese.

[Gary Hill]

GarthM -

The same guidelines apply to interference by casual water in a bunker.

Interference by an abnormal ground condition occurs when the ball touches the condition, or when such a condition interferes with the player's stance or the area of his intended swing.

In your case, the casual water was interfering with your stance, so you are allowed relief.

The relief procedure, however, is somewhat convoluted so I will break it down into parts.

Option 1: There is complete relief from the casual water in the hazard.
Option 2: There is only partial relief from casual water in the hazard.
Option 3: You dont like option 1 or 2.

Option 1:

Find the nearest point of relief IN the hazard not nearer the hole which avoids the interference.

Relief means COMPLETE relief (see Note 1), so IF you can find a spot in the bunker not nearer the hole where there is no interference by the casual water, you may drop the ball IN THE HAZARD within one club-length of this spot without penalty.

Option 2:

If complete relief is impossible, but there is partial relief (eg. shallower water), you may drop the ball, without penalty, in the bunker as near as possible to the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole, on a part of the course which affords maximum available relief from the condition.

Option 3: UNDER PENALTY OF ONE STROKE, outside the bunker keeping the point where the ball lay directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the bunker the ball may be dropped

This option is needed in case the bunker is completed covered in deep water.

BTW - There is no free relief from interference by an abnormal ground condition in a WATER HAZARD.

Note 1: Option 2 is a special inclusion to the general concept of relief means COMPLETE relief.

For example, if you take obstruction relief from a cart path, you may NOT stand on the cart path AFTER you have taken relief.

[Christian]

Hi Gary. I have a two follow-up questions as well.

1) At this time of the year, many water hazards have overflowed their usual margins (and some by quite a bit). My ball came to rest in the water (but was several feet outside of the usual marked off margin). Is this a case that would qualify for being allowed relief? When playing last week, the group consensus was that relief was not allowed. P.S. I could have easily played and explosion shot but didn't want to get wet at the time (yes I wussed out!).

2) There is a drainage ditch (no markers) that leads to a water hazard. Under normal conditions, the ditch is just grass (high and dry with no water). At this time of the year, there are several feet of water in this ditch. Does this mean that the ditch becomes an extension of the existing hazard? Last week, one of the other players nearly put it into the ditch and again the group consensus was that relief would not have been allowed.

Thanks. CEP

[Gary Hill]

Originally posted by Christian
1) At this time of the year, many water hazards have overflowed their usual margins (and some by quite a bit). My ball came to rest in the water (but was several feet outside of the usual marked off margin). Is this a case that would qualify for being allowed relief? When playing last week, the group consensus was that relief was not allowed. P.S. I could have easily played and explosion shot but didn't want to get wet at the time (yes I wussed out!).

2) There is a drainage ditch (no markers) that leads to a water hazard. Under normal conditions, the ditch is just grass (high and dry with no water). At this time of the year, there are several feet of water in this ditch. Does this mean that the ditch becomes an extension of the existing hazard? Last week, one of the other players nearly put it into the ditch and again the group consensus was that relief would not have been allowed.

1. Water on a golf course is by definition either casual water or a water hazard. If the water is within the margins of water hazard, the water hazard rule applies. If the water is outside the margins of a water hazard, the casual water rule applies.

Any overflow of water from a water hazard which is outside the margin of the hazard is casual water.

2. The definition of a water hazard is any sea, lake, pond, river, ditch, surface drainage ditch or other open water course (whether or not containing water) and anything of a similar nature.

It is the responsibility of the Committee to accurately define the margins of water hazards and lateral water hazards. However, if the Committee has not done so, the ditch is, by definition, a water hazard.

The ditch does NOT become a water hazard when it is wet. It is ALWAYS a water hazard and the player could have proceeded under the water hazard rule.

General Rule of Thumb: If the course doesn't cut the depressed area with a "gang mower", it is likely a water hazard.

[Gary Hill]

Originally posted by spidey

Gary... a follow-up question.

Assume the water nearly fills the bunker. I want to take relief inside the bunker, but the areas of free relief are so sloped that the ball keeps rolling into the casual water. May I place the ball if it won't stay on the spot determined for relief?

The answer has to do with the dropping procedure and this procedure is the same whether or not in a bunker.

After counsulting with my notes, more than half of the questions I get on the course are related to lift, dropping, and placing.

I have moved the question to this new thread Lifting, Dropping, and Placing which, I am sure, will become a lengthy one.