Ruling?

[habsfan]

Had a situation this weekend, nobody knew the correct ruling. Player hits his ball into a red hazard right of the green, finds a ball on a very steep slope, walking down trying to get to his ball to identify he slips a little causing the ball to move, what happens, he doesn't know that's his ball yet and doesn't know if he will play from location or take penalty, is he penalized for causing the ball to move?

[jeffc]

did he determine that was his ball eventually or did the ball then fall into the water?

[habsfan]

did he determine that was his ball eventually or did the ball then fall into the water?

Was his ball only rolled a foot or two.

[GarthM]

Whaddya mean nobody knew????

I said no penalty....http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-12/

plus: http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules...Rule-18/#18-2a

[habsfan]

Whaddya mean nobody knew????

I said no penalty....http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-12/

plus: http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules...Rule-18/#18-2a

We asked little Pat yesterday and he wasn't sure either so nobody remembers you piping up, you must of discussed with Jo when you got home, you are almost a Senior remember Garth

[AAA]

Penalty under 18-2a(i) bullet 3.

18-2. Ball at rest Moved
By Player, Partner, Caddie Or Equipment
a. General
Except as permitted by the Rules, when a player’s ball is in play, if

(i) the player, his partner or either of their caddies:
• causes the ball to move
the player incurs a penalty of one stroke.

He must replace the ball.


None of the conditions in rule 12 are satisfied.

[habsfan]

Penalty under 18-2a(i) bullet 3.

18-2. Ball at rest Moved
By Player, Partner, Caddie Or Equipment
a. General
Except as permitted by the Rules, when a player’s ball is in play, if

(i) the player, his partner or either of their caddies:
• causes the ball to move
the player incurs a penalty of one stroke.

He must replace the ball.


None of the conditions in rule 12 are satisfied.

See Garth, he didn't know it was his ball and the ball was in a hazard does that matter?

[GarthM]

Penalty under 18-2a(i) bullet 3.

18-2. Ball at rest Moved
By Player, Partner, Caddie Or Equipment
a. General
Except as permitted by the Rules, when a player’s ball is in play, if

(i) the player, his partner or either of their caddies:
• causes the ball to move
the player incurs a penalty of one stroke.

He must replace the ball.


None of the conditions in rule 12 are satisfied.

Yes however in the end he decided not to play the ball from the hazard, therefore did not need to replace the ball. No penalty.

[AAA]

See Garth, he didn't know it was his ball and the ball was in a hazard does that matter?

It makes no difference.

[adanac]

It makes no difference.

Agree. The pertinent question is - did he cause his ball in play to move in a manner not excepted in Rule 18-2a? If yes, it's a penalty.

[AAA]

Yes however in the end he decided not to play the ball from the hazard, therefore did not need to replace the ball. No penalty.

But he still incurred the penalty for moving it in the first place.

[habsfan]

I'm confused was it a penalty or not.

[jeffc]

I'm confused was it a penalty or not.

yep.

[Big Johnny69]

From what I gather, ball was within the limits of a hazard (on a slope but not in the actual water). If the player had no intention of trying to play the ball from the hazard and was merely trying to get to the ball to identify it, but still slips and moves the ball, is it a penalty?

I'm with Garth on this one, not sure how this could still incurr a penalty? When I play if my ball is in a hazard and I walk in there and pick up my ball, or use a club to try to knock it back to me (which could take a few whacks if the ball is in a tough spot), by the above reasoning I should incurr a penalty also.

Unlike a provisional, I don't think you have to declare you are not attempting to play your ball from a hazard, you can just pick it up and procede accordingly. So if you are going into a hazard to pick up your ball to drop it outside the hazard as per the rules, but slip and kick the ball within the hazard due to wet grass or an extreme slope, not sure how a penalty can be assessed.

If he had taken his stance in an attempt to play the ball and slipped and moved it, then I can see how a penalty can be assessed.

Some clarification would be nice here.

To me it seems he can procede accordingly under 26-1, he just wanted to make sure it was his ball before having to pull another one from his bag.

[adanac]

From what I gather, ball was within the limits of a hazard (on a slope but not in the actual water). If the player had no intention of trying to play the ball from the hazard and was merely trying to get to the ball to identify it, but still slips and moves the ball, is it a penalty?

I'm with Garth on this one, not sure how this could still incurr a penalty? When I play if my ball is in a hazard and I walk in there and pick up my ball, or use a club to try to knock it back to me (which could take a few whacks if the ball is in a tough spot), by the above reasoning I should incurr a penalty also.

Unlike a provisional, I don't think you have to declare you are not attempting to play your ball from a hazard, you can just pick it up and procede accordingly. So if you are going into a hazard to pick up your ball to drop it outside the hazard as per the rules, but slip and kick the ball within the hazard due to wet grass or an extreme slope, not sure how a penalty can be assessed.

If he had taken his stance in an attempt to play the ball and slipped and moved it, then I can see how a penalty can be assessed.

Some clarification would be nice here.

To me it seems he can procede accordingly under 26-1, he just wanted to make sure it was his ball before having to pull another one from his bag.

The cautious player will declare that he's going to proceed under Rule 26-1 before he enters the hazard to retrieve the ball. In that way, there is no penalty for causing the ball to move. If the player's actions suggest that he's still thinking about playing the ball, then there is a penalty for causing the ball to move.

[Big Johnny69]

I understand what you say, but it does not stipulate in the rules that you have to declare you are using rule 26-1, like it does if you plan to play a provisional.

There is where I can understand people's frustration with the rules. Common sense should prevail knowing that he was going down to see if it was his ball to pick it up to proceed under rule 26-1. So according to the rules it is expected to leave your (possibly brand new) ProV1 in the hazard (that is on a severe slope, with wet, dewy grass) for fear of incurring a penalty if you happen to slip and move your ball. In my opinion, that is really stupid.

If it is prudent to declare you are proceeding under any type of rule, then put in the words "a player must declare" in the rules to avoid this type of situation.

I'm pretty sure I'd create a bit of a scene of I lost out on a tournament because of this scenario if I was told I "should have declared I was proceeding under 26-1" when within the rules it doesn't state I have to do so.

And judging from Pat's scenario above, I don't think he was planning on playing the ball, just wanted to see if it was his before he proceeded under 26-1.

[jeffc]

I understand what you say, but it does not stipulate in the rules that you have to declare you are using rule 26-1, like it does if you plan to play a provisional.

There is where I can understand people's frustration with the rules. Common sense should prevail knowing that he was going down to see if it was his ball to pick it up to proceed under rule 26-1. So according to the rules it is expected to leave your (possibly brand new) ProV1 in the hazard (that is on a severe slope, with wet, dewy grass) for fear of incurring a penalty if you happen to slip and move your ball. In my opinion, that is really stupid.

If it is prudent to declare you are proceeding under any type of rule, then put in the words "a player must declare" in the rules to avoid this type of situation.

I'm pretty sure I'd create a bit of a scene of I lost out on a tournament because of this scenario if I was told I "should have declared I was proceeding under 26-1" when within the rules it doesn't state I have to do so.

And judging from Pat's scenario above, I don't think he was planning on playing the ball, just wanted to see if it was his before he proceeded under 26-1.

I agree on the clarification of the rules but if my fellow competitor was going down to have a look, I have no idea what his intentions are unless he states what he is doing.

[Big Johnny69]

That's fine, but it doesn't say anywhere in the rules he has to state his intentions (for all the die hard purists who always state the "rules are the rules"), except for a provisional. So for them now, to take a different stance on this would be quite hypocritical of them.

In all my years of playing, I have never, nor have I ever had an opponent declare he was proceeding under 26-1 when he's gone into a hazard to get/identify a ball. I'd like to know how many times you have honestly done that, or seen someone that has done that. And this is in casual and competitive play.

Many times I have entered a hazard and brought a club with to reach my ball along a water line to tap it back to me. According to the rules I guess I should've been penalizing myself all those times. It's good to know the rules would rather penalize you than take into account a player's safety.

[LobWedge]

I understand what you say, but it does not stipulate in the rules that you have to declare you are using rule 26-1, like it does if you plan to play a provisional.

There is where I can understand people's frustration with the rules. Common sense should prevail knowing that he was going down to see if it was his ball to pick it up to proceed under rule 26-1. So according to the rules it is expected to leave your (possibly brand new) ProV1 in the hazard (that is on a severe slope, with wet, dewy grass) for fear of incurring a penalty if you happen to slip and move your ball. In my opinion, that is really stupid.

If it is prudent to declare you are proceeding under any type of rule, then put in the words "a player must declare" in the rules to avoid this type of situation.

I'm pretty sure I'd create a bit of a scene of I lost out on a tournament because of this scenario if I was told I "should have declared I was proceeding under 26-1" when within the rules it doesn't state I have to do so.

And judging from Pat's scenario above, I don't think he was planning on playing the ball, just wanted to see if it was his before he proceeded under 26-1.

See the last part of 12-1c for clarification.

c. Searching for Ball in Water in Water Hazard

If a ball is believed to be lying in water in a water hazard, the player may, without penalty, probe for it with a club or otherwise. If the ball in water is accidentally moved while probing, there is no penalty; the ball must be replaced, unless the player elects to proceed under Rule 26-1. If the moved ball was not lying in water or the ball was accidentally moved by the player other than while probing, Rule 18-2a applies.

[Big Johnny69]

See the last part of 12-1c for clarification.

c. Searching for Ball in Water in Water Hazard

If a ball is believed to be lying in water in a water hazard, the player may, without penalty, probe for it with a club or otherwise. If the ball in water is accidentally moved while probing, there is no penalty; the ball must be replaced, unless the player elects to proceed under Rule 26-1. If the moved ball was not lying in water or the ball was accidentally moved by the player other than while probing, Rule 18-2a applies.

I saw that part Rich. His ball was on the slope, not in the water.

But I was referencing many times I have used a club to tap a ball back to me that is in a hazard but near the water line or under bushes, not actually in water. So according to the rules, I should penalize myself because due to safety/accessibility issues I am using a club to reach my ball because I can't pick it up with my hand.

Now before anyone goes off saying that's unreasonable, according to the all the rules gurus (and Rich, see your signature), what's in the rules are the rules.

[Txxxxxxx]

Let's face it. There are too many Rules and Sub categories. It's no wonder golf is losing players. Make the rules straight forward, and without a doubt.

How many people carry around a rule book with them? Not many, or any that I know. The same can be said for how many people I know that have the book memorized.

[LobWedge]

Also remember, even though a ball is in a hazard, it's still in play. The prudent thing to do if the ball is in a precarious position is to proceed under 26-1 first, and then go retrieve the other ball. As long as it's known or virtually certain that the ball is in the hazard, there's no requirement to identify it first.

[LobWedge]

Let's face it. There are too many Rules and Sub categories. It's no wonder golf is losing players. Make the rules straight forward, and without a doubt.

How many people carry around a rule book with them? Not many, or any that I know. The same can be said for how many people I know that have the book memorized.

No offence, but that may be the poorest excuse I've ever read.

BTW - 18-2 is as simple as it gets. You're either responsible for causing the ball to move, or you're not.

[Txxxxxxx]

No offence, but that may be the poorest excuse I've ever read.

Excuse for what?

[LobWedge]

Excuse for what?

For not having a basic knowledge of the rules. 18 and 26 are "cornerstone" rules. They are in use in every single round of golf played. If you don't have even a basic understanding of how these work, you shouldn't be playing golf anyway.

[Big Johnny69]

Also remember, even though a ball is in a hazard, it's still in play. The prudent thing to do if the ball is in a precarious position is to proceed under 26-1 first, and then go retrieve the other ball. As long as it's known or virtually certain that the ball is in the hazard, there's no requirement to identify it first.

I understand all of this. But if my ball is in a hazard and retrievable, and I have no intention of playing it from the hazard I find it stupid that if I slip and move my ball you get penalized. If, like a provisional, you need to declare what your intentions are then fine, I'd declare everytime. But the rules don't say that. So I'd have a very hard time swallowing a penalty if I go down a slope to get my ball and fall and kick it.

But I find it amusing (see sarcasm) where the purists always tout how the rules aren't open to interpretation, but all of a sudden they are preaching common sense and discretion where otherwise they state the rules are the rules.

[Txxxxxxx]

For not having a basic knowledge of the rules. 18 and 26 are "cornerstone" rules. They are in use in every single round of golf played. If you don't have even a basic understanding of how these work, you shouldn't be playing golf anyway.

My comments are in relation to this event specifically. It just shows how it is ambiguous as Geoff has mentioned. This is obviously not a rule that is "basic", and that is obvious by the question for clarification here in this thread.

I challenge you to question, even competitive golfers, if they know exactly what the ruling would be in this case. I can almost guarantee you, that they would need a rules official to clarify.

And for the record...That's quite narrow-minded of you to say, that if you don't have even a basic understanding, that you shouldn't play golf anyway....Perhaps this is the stance that needs to be altered, in order to not discourage people who like to play for the pure enjoyment.....

[LobWedge]

I understand all of this. But if my ball is in a hazard and retrievable, and I have no intention of playing it from the hazard I find it stupid that if I slip and move my ball you get penalized. If, like a provisional, you need to declare what your intentions are then fine, I'd declare everytime. But the rules don't say that. So I'd have a very hard time swallowing a penalty if I go down a slope to get my ball and fall and kick it.

But I find it amusing (see sarcasm) where the purists always tout how the rules aren't open to interpretation, but all of a sudden they are preaching common sense and discretion where otherwise they state the rules are the rules.

How about finding a less direct route to your ball before going to retrieve it? That is common sense in action with regard to the rules. The ball is still in play, and the player is on the hook for a ball in play that moves as a direct result of his actions. 26 allows the player to substitute a ball when taking relief.

[LobWedge]

My comments are in relation to this event specifically. It just shows how it is ambiguous as Geoff has mentioned. This is obviously not a rule that is "basic", and that is obvious by the question for clarification here in this thread.

I challenge you to question, even competitive golfers, if they know exactly what the ruling would be in this case. I can almost guarantee you, that they would need a rules official to clarify.

And for the record...That's quite narrow-minded of you to say, that if you don't have even a basic understanding, that you shouldn't play golf anyway....Perhaps this is the stance that needs to be altered, in order to not discourage people who like to play for the pure enjoyment.....

I stand by my statement 100%. I'm tired of people who constantly whine about how the rules are killing participation in golf. That's total BS. People come on here to ask for clarification, and then whine when they don't get the answer they like. What's the point? There's a lot of stuff in life we don't like, so either do something about it, or get on with it. It's that simple. Golf is a lot like life, you get out of it what you put in to it.

[Txxxxxxx]

Let me give you another perfect example of how the rules are not straight-forward, in the eyes of people who play all the time, and not the actual rules official.

Why is this rule the way it is....??


If I knock my ball off the tee on the tee box, I may replace it with no penalty, as I have not made an effort to actually hit the ball.

If I knock my ball with practice swings, a few feet to the side, when my ball is laying in the rough, I must replace the ball, and take a one stroke penalty for doing so.

What is the difference between the two? In both instances I did not make an attempt to actually hit the ball.

As a golfer who is getting into the game, or say someone who does not have the book memorized, why not make this rule uniform for all instances?

Just using this as an example, of how the rules could be simplified with a uniform ruling.

It's no secret that even golf pros, and analysts, have been pushing to simplify the rules for a while now.