A few questions about rules....

["Richard"]

ok going to be playing with a few friends over the next few weeks very often and I just wanted to clarify a few things before we start playing WRONG again this year.

1) When does a player ever drop a ball in the drop zone?

2) lets see the ball goes into the forrest and we can see the ball but its not playable. The player is not allowed to just drop the ball where it went in right? He has to call it unplayable and redo the shot from where he took it.. but how do you know exactly where he took his shot from?

3) If a player doesn't know exactly where his ball is, he can hit a provisional ball and as soon as that ball crosses where you think his ball should be that now becomes his ball. Does this apply to the first shot with the provisional? I mean, lets see you just can't see the ball anywhere, so you hit another shot and that shot is PERFECT and really long. Then as you walk to your provisional ball, you find your ball... you can't play it right?

4) When is something out of bounds? I mean, I hit balls into other peoples fairways all the time and go hit them when its safe to walk into their fairway.

[powerlefty]

ok going to be playing with a few friends over the next few weeks very often and I just wanted to clarify a few things before we start playing WRONG again this year.

1) When does a player ever drop a ball in the drop zone?

2) lets see the ball goes into the forrest and we can see the ball but its not playable. The player is not allowed to just drop the ball where it went in right? He has to call it unplayable and redo the shot from where he took it.. but how do you know exactly where he took his shot from?

3) If a player doesn't know exactly where his ball is, he can hit a provisional ball and as soon as that ball crosses where you think his ball should be that now becomes his ball. Does this apply to the first shot with the provisional? I mean, lets see you just can't see the ball anywhere, so you hit another shot and that shot is PERFECT and really long. Then as you walk to your provisional ball, you find your ball... you can't play it right?

4) When is something out of bounds? I mean, I hit balls into other peoples fairways all the time and go hit them when its safe to walk into their fairway.

Let's see if I can give some brief answers and I am sure Gary will be able to clarify/correct anything I might be off base on...

1) A drop area is usually just another option you have when taking a penalty or (I think for certain relief it might be mandaory) relief. It is marked on the course. For example, instead of dropping in accordance with the normal locations for Lateral or Water Hazards, the drop area usually gives you another option - 17th hole at TPC Sawgras has this. I think in some PGA events there are also drop areas designated for when a ball lands in the grandstands (I seem to recall this at either the PGA or US OPen a fe years ago - in that case I thought the players had no option but to drop in the designated drop area).

2) Actually there are 3 choices all with a 1 stroke penalty. Drop within 2 clublengths of the spot where the ball is (but no closer to the hole). Drop anywhere along a line from the hole through the ball but behind where the ball now sits. Hit from as near to the last point as you can determine - walk back there find your divot and drop behind it, or if you can't find the divot, do your best estimate of where you did hit the shot from, or if from the tee, simply retee.

3) Geez, this one is complicated. I don't think the original actually becomes abondoned until you play the provisional from past where the original ball was likely to be, i.e. in your case that would be after you walked up and gave it another whack. I know there are all kinds of scenarios with this one as to when you can or cannot play a provisional - possibly lost, lost in a hazard, OB - GARY HELP!!!!!

4) Out of bounds is marked by white stakes or some other markings as identified on the scorecard or local rules, e.g. sometimes fences, roads, etc. Another fairway is not OB unless it is marked by stakes or some other indication on the scorecard.

["Richard"]

awesome, I'm ready.. noto nly if it wasn't raining

[el tigre]

3) Geez, this one is complicated. I don't think the original actually becomes abondoned until you play the provisional from past where the original ball was likely to be, i.e. in your case that would be after you walked up and gave it another whack. I know there are all kinds of scenarios with this one as to when you can or cannot play a provisional - possibly lost, lost in a hazard, OB - GARY HELP!!!!!

Your explanation is kinda correct, but I think you mean "lost" rather than "abandoned" in this scenario. The original ball can only be "lost" - if it is found (by anyone) within 5 minutes of searching AND before you play a stroke with your provisional ball as you described above, then the provisional ball MUST be "abandoned" and the original ball played (no matter how good your provisional ball's position is and/or how bad your original ball's position is). You always have the option to declare the original ball unplayable once you find it, but you cannot simply declare your provisional ball as the "ball played from the last spot the original ball was played" and proceed with a one-stroke penalty.

["Richard"]

DO you have to find your ball to declare it unplayable?

[el tigre]

DO you have to find your ball to declare it unplayable?

Yes, unless it is lost in a hazard. Otherwise it is a lost ball.

["Richard"]

Is a lost ball 2 strokes? If I lose a ball off the tee I'm shotting 4 off the tee now?

[Kilroy]

You are "hitting 3".

The penalty is called "Stroke and distance"
It meands that the stroke you played counts, and a penalty stroke. rehiting without any gain in distance.

["Richard"]

so why waste 5 minutes looking for a ball you know you aren't going to find... why not just call in unplayable and rehit it. THat is also stroke and distance no??

[Kilroy]

You are under no obligation to look for a ball. If someone else looks and finds it, it's not lost, so it's in play.

["Richard"]

oh, s if my FC is calling the ball unplayable without looking for it I can look for it for 5 minutes and if I find it he would have to play it from where it is. This would benifit me as he might not be able to get it out... but then he can just call it unplayable and rehit... so it still doesn't really change anything. Am I making any sense?

[Gary Hill]

oh, s if my FC is calling the ball unplayable without looking for it I can look for it for 5 minutes and if I find it he would have to play it from where it is. This would benifit me as he might not be able to get it out... but then he can just call it unplayable and rehit... so it still doesn't really change anything. Am I making any sense?

If your fellow-competitor declares the ball unplayable, that ball is immediately out of play. It makes no difference whether you look for it or find it. It cannot be played by the fellow-competitor as it lies. Unplayable is NOT the same thing as lost.

A ball CANNOT be declared lost.

A ball CAN be declared unplayable at any place on the course except when the ball is in a water hazard. However, you loose the option of playing a provisional ball.

If you hit a ball deep into the woods that:
(A) you are never going to find; or
(B) you don't want to play even if you do find it,

forget about the provisional ball rule and just play another ball from that spot.

Another ball played without declaring it a provisional ball automagically becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance. In such a case, it is irrelevant whether or not you declare the original ball unplayable.

[Gary Hill]

From earlier in the thread......

DO you have to find your ball to declare it unplayable?

Yes, unless it is lost in a hazard. Otherwise it is a lost ball.

Absolutely NOT.

[Gary Hill]

Also from earlier in the thread......

so why waste 5 minutes looking for a ball you know you aren't going to find... why not just call in unplayable and rehit it. THat is also stroke and distance no??

Absolutely. You have the perfect solution.

If someone else looks and finds it, it's not lost, so it's in play.

If the ball is declared unplayable, it is immediately out of play. Someone finding the ball would not change the status of the ball.

["Richard"]

thanks man

[el tigre]

From earlier in the thread......

DO you have to find your ball to declare it unplayable?
Absolutely NOT.

Oops, sorry. Gee Gary, we really miss you when you're away! You are da man!

[BC MIST]

From earlier in the thread......

DO you have to find your ball to declare it unplayable?
Absolutely NOT.

This is something about which I was totally unaware, and have always assumed that the ball must be found to be declared unplayable.

The only significant implications of this is the elimination of the two options of (1) dropping the ball within 2 club lengths of the point at which the ball was declared unplayable and (2) dropping a ball on a line from the hole back through the unplayable point.

[oldmaninblack]

I have always assumed I had to drop the original ball, but the rule does state "c. drop a ball within 2 club lengths ..."

This says I can substitute another ball in the "normal" unplayable situations.

So, next time my ball is imbedded in muck, in the woods, I can drop a new, clean ball rather than messing up my hands and my towel and possibly my clothes trying to get the ball clean enough to play.

The rule book is your friend

[gbower]

From looking in both the rule book and decisions book if the ball is not found there is only one option and that is "stroke and distance" so you must rehit from the point that the previous shot was made. Both rule 28 b and c require that the ball be found and identified.

[Gary Hill]

From looking in both the rule book and decisions book if the ball is not found there is only one option and that is "stroke and distance" so you must rehit from the point that the previous shot was made. Both rule 28 b and c require that the ball be found and identified.

True. This was noted earlier by BC MIST.

"The only significant implications of this is the elimination of the two options of (1) dropping the ball within 2 club lengths of the point at which the ball was declared unplayable and (2) dropping a ball on a line from the hole back through the unplayable point."

[BC MIST]

I have always assumed I had to drop the original ball, but the rule does state "c. drop a ball within 2 club lengths ..."
This says I can substitute another ball in the "normal" unplayable situations.
So, next time my ball is imbedded in muck, in the woods, I can drop a new, clean ball rather than messing up my hands and my towel and possibly my clothes trying to get the ball clean enough to play.

But also keep in mind that if the club at which you are playing has a local rule that states that players may get relief from plugged balls, "THROUGH THE GREEN," there is no penalty, and you may drop a ball as near as possible to the plugged point, not nearer the hole.

[Michael Frame]

I have a question related to part of Gary's answer and another related to the title of this post.

Gary wrote "A ball CANNOT be declared lost."

Are you just being precise about the use of the word "declared" in the rules. Isn't it true that you CAN search for five minutes, but you don't have to. At some point before five minutes you can decide to take one of the actions allowable for a lost ball. You are essentially declaring your belief that the ball is lost.

My "realism" question is this. I play at a very busy course. There have been numerous times that I thought a ball would be in a particular place and when I got there it could not be found. I hadn't hit a provisional as I thought there was no need. The group(s) behind are eager for my group to get moving. We could let them play through, but the next group would then be waiting, ad infinitum. In stroke play and the above circumstances it seems reasonable to drop a ball where I thought my ball should be, declare it in play, give myself a two shot penalty, and continue play. Unfortunately, me reading of the rules provides no provision for actually doing this. I think the ball I drop becomes a "wrong ball", so I can't play it.

Any advice?

Thanks,

Mike

[Gary Hill]

Gary wrote "A ball CANNOT be declared lost."

Are you just being precise about the use of the word "declared" in the rules. Isn't it true that you CAN search for five minutes, but you don't have to. At some point before five minutes you can decide to take one of the actions allowable for a lost ball. You are essentially declaring your belief that the ball is lost.

Definitions: Lost Ball
A ball is deemed “lost’’ if:
a. It is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player’s side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it; or
b. The player has made a stroke at a substituted ball; or
c. The player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place.

The Rules say nothing about a ball being lost "because you say so".

If I find your ball before any of the three above actions are effected, your original ball is NOT LOST, no matter what you have verbally declared.
BTW - You cannot stop me from searching.

In stroke play and the above circumstances it seems reasonable to drop a ball where I thought my ball should be, declare it in play, give myself a two shot penalty, and continue play.Any advice?

When you are playing for fun on Sunday afternoon and the course is busy and you are not playing in a competition for $1,000,000 my advice is: Drop a ball, mark an X on your scorecard for that hole, and carry on. Who cares.

However, as a Rules official, when you drop a ball at the point where you "think" it is lost, you are discounting the fact that if you return to the teeing ground as stipulated in the Rules, your next tee shot might not be so great either. You may hit your second tee shot out of bounds or into a water hazard or dribble it ten feet in front of the markers?

It is cleary unreasonable to assume that dropping a ball and adding two strokes is anywhere close to the reality of actually playing the hole properly.

["Richard"]

Man, golf is so confusing. I went to the canadian last weeka and I saw this big board with txt in small font. I thought it was a lost of all members over the past 10 years or something. I got closer and it was all the rules of golf.

What we do is is play another ball off the tee and hope we find the first one. It takes two seconds to tee up another ball and saves you from walking all the way back when you can't find it. Some of my friends drop a ball where it went out of bounds but I don't do that. Sure they beat me sometimes but I don't consider that a win anymore since it isn't how you are supposed to play. Who is to say they would have hit it there had they teed up it up again (as gary said)