To be or not the be (a memeber)

[mberube]

Looks like I'll be getting a membership next year then. What is a good course in ottawa to get one at? I want something that is very very hard so when I play other courses it is a bit easier for me.

If money is not a problem, ClubLink have the best options.

["Richard"]

how does club links work? I've read the website before but doesnt really make much sense, other than the kanata course, the coruses all seem to be in toronto

[Colby]

how does club links work? I've read the website before but doesnt really make much sense, other than the kanata course, the coruses all seem to be in toronto

There are two other courses in the Ottawa area, Greyhawk, 36 holes, and Hautes Plaines in Gatineau (Hull). There is also a course in Tremblant and 2 in the Montreal area.

There are 4 levels of Clublink clubs. Silver, Gold, Platinum and Prestige. As a member at a certain level, you have full reciprocal play at courses one level higher than you and below. So myself being a member at Greyhawk, I can play all of the Silver, Gold and Platinum level courses at no additional charge. That gives me a selection of 3 clubs here in Ottawa, and 3 others within a 2 hour drive. If I go to Toronto/Muskoka, I can add about 20 more courses to the list. I also have access to Glen Abbey for a very reduced rate.

[guyfrompei]

Dont' forget that these are not just your average courses! The quality and condition of tees, green and fairways is always outstanding and the customer service is always friendly and more than accomodating. The best thing for me is always knowing that I won't be dissapointed by poor course conditions, and that's a big plus.

[el tigre]

If you were a member someplace, you could always just play 9 holes. I do this at Greyhawk. Sometimes it's 9, sometimes 12-13 depending on the time I have.

Yeah, but to make that work I would need something closer to home. I'm moving in August to Findlay Creek (just south of Leitrim), so I'll be 5 minutes from The Meadows, Falcon Ridge, Emerald Links and the new Patterson course.

[Colby]

Yeah, but to make that work I would need something closer to home. I'm moving in August to Findlay Creek (just south of Leitrim), so I'll be 5 minutes from The Meadows, Falcon Ridge, Emerald Links and the new Patterson course.

And another 5 minutes to Greyhawk

[el tigre]

And another 5 minutes to Greyhawk

Yeah, but I am philisophically opposed to initiation fees in general and the high initiation fees that ClubLink charges in particular.

Why should you have to pay the price of new car for the "privilege" of then buying a membership every year? To invest $10K or more for this "privilege" (more like $25K in the GTA) basically means you have to make a membership commitment for about 10 years in order for this investment to pay off.

A lot can happen in 5 years, let alone 10 years. I have enough long-term commitments in my life.

[mberube]

Yeah, but I am philisophically opposed to initiation fees in general and the high initiation fees that ClubLink charges in particular.

Why should you have to pay the price of new car for the "privilege" of then buying a membership every year? To invest $10K or more for this "privilege" (more like $25K in the GTA) basically means you have to make a membership commitment for about 10 years in order for this investment to pay off.

A lot can happen in 5 years, let alone 10 years. I have enough long-term commitments in my life.

You can pay your initiation fee monthly no interest for 6 or 10 years depending on your age group. If you decide not to join three years from now you don’t need to pay the rest of the initiation fee.

I pay $25.24 a month for 10 years. If I stop being a member three years later I paid only $908 out of $3028.

[Colby]

Yeah, but I am philisophically opposed to initiation fees in general and the high initiation fees that ClubLink charges in particular.

Why should you have to pay the price of new car for the "privilege" of then buying a membership every year? To invest $10K or more for this "privilege" (more like $25K in the GTA) basically means you have to make a membership commitment for about 10 years in order for this investment to pay off.

A lot can happen in 5 years, let alone 10 years. I have enough long-term commitments in my life.

The initiation fees do a lot of things. Course upgrades/maintenance that don't have to rely on public golfer revenue to fund. I've found that the course conditions at all of the Clublink courses that I've played at generally above those public or semi-private courses that I have played on in the past and continue to play today. And it's not just Clublink in the area charging initiation fees, it's just more accessable than the other clubs.

[el tigre]

If you decide not to join three years from now you don’t need to pay the rest of the initiation fee.

OK, well that makes the investment a little less risky. So if you paid up front and then get hit by a truck or transferred to Yellowknife then you're only on the hook for 30% of the fee?

["Richard"]

I don't get how this works. What exactly would it cost me? I'm bouncing back and forth between toronto and ottawa.

[jeffc]

You can pay your initiation fee monthly no interest for 6 or 10 years depending on your age group. If you decide not to join three years from now you don’t need to pay the rest of the initiation fee.

I pay $25.24 a month for 10 years. If I stop being a member three years later I paid only $908 out of $3028.

actually, that is a pretty good deal.

convincing the wife is a completely different story

[jmr73]

I don't get how this works. What exactly would it cost me? I'm bouncing back and forth between toronto and ottawa.

Being someone who bounces back and forth between Toronto and Ottawa would be ideal for a Clublink membership. Let's say you joined GH here in Ottawa, you could play most of the TO courses (over 90%) for free I wish I was in your shoes and spent more time in Toronto as there is a such a huge selection of great courses. I was in Markham in the fall and there were 5-6 top-notch courses within a 15-20 minute drive.

There is a lot of info on this forum. Just do a search for Clublink.

To sum it up quickly, you pay
- your entrance fee over 10years (currently 11,500... or 1,150/yr)
- your annual dues every year (around $2500/yr)
- bar tab every year (600/yr)

This allows you to play close to 30 courses free of charge. Access to the range, great conditions, great service...

[el tigre]

The initiation fees do a lot of things. Course upgrades/maintenance that don't have to rely on public golfer revenue to fund.

Colby, that's marketing hype. They simply need to charge a higher membership fee to fund a higher level of course maintenance.

I understand why initiation fees are charged (I just don't agree with them):

1) Get a long-term membership commitment - if you paid $10K up front, you're going to pay your annual membership every year. You gotta play there for the long-term to make your investment pay off.

2) Get the course built - most golf course owners need investors to build a golf course. Some of that investment money can come from future members in the form of initiation fees. Then you're kinda stuck with that model, since you can't turn around and start letting in new members without charging initiation fees.

3) Exclusivity - if you want to cater to an exclusive and affluent clientele, you put up barriers to entry like high initiation fees to keep out the riff-raff. The fees in Ottawa are much more reasonable than in the GTA, where if you gotta ask then you can't afford it!

[mberube]

OK, well that makes the investment a little less risky. So if you paid up front and then get hit by a truck or transferred to Yellowknife then you're only on the hook for 30% of the fee?

If you pay it all in one shot you are $crewed. If you move and there is no CL course around your new location, you lost everything you already paid. To benefit from this you must pay on a long-term plan.

[mberube]

I don't get how this works. What exactly would it cost me? I'm bouncing back and forth between toronto and ottawa.

Find a ClubLink course close to you. Checkout the initiation fee for that course on the CL web page. You can pay the initiation fee no interest over 6 or 10 years depending on your age group. Then you pay your annual dues and bar tab. Now you can play your home course and every other CL courses displayed on the web site.

[spackler]

Perhaps this question has been asked before, but I'm fairly new here and I apologize in advance. Are the ClubLink initiation fees transferrable pieces of equity in the club, or are they just a fee? I grew up in Toronto and had many friends whose families were members at private ski clubs in Collingwood (Osler, Alpine, Craigleath, etc). The initiation fees were steep $25-50K, but they were also transferrable. This way the clubs would still get the fat intial pieces and the mostly long term commitments, but would also be able to limit the size of the clubs to reasonable levels so there weren't too many people standing in line at the chairlifts. If somebody did sell their membership, I think the club would take a 10-15% fee to do the transfer, so it was still in their interest to do it. One family I knew actually made money on their stake as they sold it for a higher price than they bought it.

If this isn't the case with CL, I think I'd rather plunk down at Royal, Hunt, Rivermeade, etc., where at least it's a partial investment (although maybe it's not transferrable there either), and the courses aren't open to the public. If it's just a fee, I'm with El Tigre.

[el tigre]

Perhaps this question has been asked before, but I'm fairly new here and I apologize in advance. Are the ClubLink initiation fees transferrable pieces of equity in the club, or are they just a fee?

They are non-transferable:

Except as set out in sections 7.1 and 7.2, and subject to any ClubLink privileges provided pursuant to section 18 which permit transfer of a Membership to another ClubLink club, Memberships are non-transferable. No Member will in any way advertise their Membership for use, sale or transfer.

About 6 years ago the company I worked for was considering a membership at Rattlesnake Point. The initiation fee was $25,000 (this was prior to the course being opened) and they already had over 700 members. So that's a cool $17.5 million before they had even finished building the course. That's a lot of maintenance! I see that the initiation fee is now $70,000. Inflation, I guess.

Compared to other ClubLink courses, Hautes Plaines is a real bargain.

[mberube]

They are non-transferable:

Except as set out in sections 7.1 and 7.2, and subject to any ClubLink privileges provided pursuant to section 18 which permit transfer of a Membership to another ClubLink club, Memberships are non-transferable. No Member will in any way advertise their Membership for use, sale or transfer.

There is a loophole out of that clause.

[em69]

Looks like I'll be getting a membership next year then. What is a good course in ottawa to get one at? I want something that is very very hard so when I play other courses it is a bit easier for me.

What's your budget? Memberships start at around $900 and can exceed $30K.

[Colby]

They are non-transferable:

Except as set out in sections 7.1 and 7.2, and subject to any ClubLink privileges provided pursuant to section 18 which permit transfer of a Membership to another ClubLink club, Memberships are non-transferable. No Member will in any way advertise their Membership for use, sale or transfer.

About 6 years ago the company I worked for was considering a membership at Rattlesnake Point. The initiation fee was $25,000 (this was prior to the course being opened) and they already had over 700 members. So that's a cool $17.5 million before they had even finished building the course. That's a lot of maintenance! I see that the initiation fee is now $70,000. Inflation, I guess.

Compared to other ClubLink courses, Hautes Plaines is a real bargain.

Corporate memberships are transferable. Create a company to hold the membership, sell the company later, including the membership.

[BullDog]

What's corporate golf? Is it similar to the Ottawa golf membership? Do you have a website?

Corporate Golf sells memberships for $240 for the year. Every game you play costs you $12 (with the exception of Heritage that charges a few bucks for the obligatory half-cart, Cedar Hill - new this year - and maybe 1-2 other courses). How is this possible? CG buys 4, 8, 12, 16 or whatever number of memberships at about 32 courses in eastern Ontario and western Quebec (most in Ontario). So however many memberships are bought at a given course equals the maximum number of Corporate Golf members who can play on a given day.

Most of them are in town or within about 45-50 minutes' drive from downtown. A few are a bit farther away.

I've been a member for about 5 years or so. It's great for me and I get my #1 requested course I'd say about 90% of the time. If you object, however, is to be able to play at Champlain, Gatineau, Chateau Cartier or any course within 2 minutes of downtown, you might not get your first choice all the time. But never once has a day been "sold out" and like I said, I've almost always been able to play where I wanted to.

They don't have a website, to my knowledge. PM me if you want more info, want their phone number or if you want more info from someone who's been in the Corporate Golf system for a long enough time.

Mike

[redgun22]

If this isn't the case with CL, I think I'd rather plunk down at Royal, Hunt, Rivermeade, etc., where at least it's a partial investment (although maybe it's not transferrable there either), and the courses aren't open to the public. If it's just a fee, I'm with El Tigre.

Pretty much by definition, an "initiation fee" is not transferable. Transferable entrance fees at a private club are generally termed "buying an equity share".

Royal, Hunt, and Rivermead (and Club Link) are all "initiation fee" clubs... I think that Camelot might be the only true equity club in the area.

The advantages of an equity structure are obvious... you can get at least some of your money back if you choose to leave (assuming that someone wants to buy it - in tough economic times you might not get much back) and you can pass it down to your children, friends, etc.

So why are so many private clubs initiation fee based? Because if you plan to be at a club for many years they actually work out better for the members. It costs the same amount of money to run a golf club regardless of the ownership structure (except CL which needs a bit extra for the profit of the company - since most private clubs are run on a non-profit member-owned basis)... and at both kinds of clubs those annual costs are generally supported by annual fees.

But what happens when large maintenance costs arise, as they inevitably will every several years - they need to renovate the clubhouse (or even build a new one), re-build the greens, get new clubhouse furniture, renovate the bunkers, build a new practice range, etc.

At an equity club these costs either have to be factored into a reserve fund that is supported by higher annual fees... or as often happens, a cash call of members. If you need a $1M renovation of the clubhouse and you have 1000 members, each member is sent an extra bill for $1,000.

At an initiation fee based club there is a steady stream of income from new members. If you have 50 new members a year each paying a $25,000 initiation fee that's $1.25M in funds available to fund capital projects and ensure that the clubhouse, practice facilities, and course are all in tip-top shape. Plus this money is indexed for inflation... as the initiation fee tends to go up over the years in line with inflation and/or demand. 15 years after you've payed your initition fee, that sunk cost is (hopefully) long forgotten, but each new member that joins is significantly subsidizing the maintenance of your club.

There are definitely pros and cons for both systems... but also strong reasons why most private clubs - at least in this region - are initiation fee based.

[jeffc]

But what happens when large maintenance costs arise, as they inevitably will every several years - they need to renovate the clubhouse (or even build a new one), re-build the greens, get new clubhouse furniture, renovate the bunkers, build a new practice range, etc.

actually, for major renovations, most charge a fee above and beyond the standard membership fees (kind of like those airport taxes you pay from time to time when they are renovating / expanding). When my dad's course built their new clubhouse a few years back, that's exactly what they did.

Initiation fees pay for a lot of the previous improvements that has been done, in the sense that why should you pay the same as a new member, as those who have been members for 20+ years.

Initiation fees also ensure that you have some "skin in the game" so to speak, such that they know you are in for the long haul.

Of course this is all based on supply and demand. If the economy is strong, and the market is not too saturated, then they can charge them, and people will pay them. When times are a little tighter, these fees get more relaxed, decrease, get spread over time, etc.

[gronker]

You can pay your initiation fee monthly no interest for 6 or 10 years depending on your age group. If you decide not to join three years from now you don’t need to pay the rest of the initiation fee.

I pay $25.24 a month for 10 years. If I stop being a member three years later I paid only $908 out of $3028.

Hi,

I'm confused. How can you only pay $24.00 per month for 10 years for a clublink membership initiation? I thought, say for instance Kanata is 22,000. Is 22K a corporate rate, and are you referring to a personal rate? I've probably missed something in this thread and sound out to lunch, but Just wondering. Something I've missed on their site?

I'd pay 3000 initiation for the previledge to play those courses in a heartbeat!!!

[mberube]

Hi,

I'm confused. How can you only pay $24.00 per month for 10 years for a clublink membership initiation? I thought, say for instance Kanata is 22,000. Is 22K a corporate rate, and are you referring to a personal rate? I've probably missed something in this thread and sound out to lunch, but Just wondering. Something I've missed on their site?

I'd pay 3000 initiation for the previledge to play those courses in a heartbeat!!!

When I became a ClubLink member 2 years ago, the initiation fee for Hautes Plaines was approximately 3000$. $25.24 X 120 month equals $3028.80.

If you were to join Kanata today you would pay $22500 X $3375 taxes / 120 months = $215.62 per month for initiation. You could join Hautes plaines for 6500$ or Grayhawk for $11500.

[gronker]

Ah yes, it is all clear to me now. I'm right in Kanata, so that would be my course. Now how can I raise the 22K...Hmm....OK, I'm dreaming. Just can't justify that at this point in my life...
Thanks,
Troy

[duffer69]

I joined a private course several years ago and haven't regretted it one bit. While it's true that you play the same course every day, I'm not good enough to place my shot in the same place on every hole each time out. Just that fact alone makes each day an adventure in that I'm playing a hole differently almost each time out. And, about once or twice a month I end up playing in some tournament on another course so I get variety that way also.

I didn't know any other members when I joined the club, but I soon met many people and made great new friends with whom I can play any time. Another great advantage of being a member is you don't necessarily have to organize a foursome each time. Often,I go out to the club without a tee-time and quickly get slotted into a 2 or 3-some and that is the way I made new golfing friends.

Let's not forget the biggest advantage - much shorter rounds and you get treated like a "somebody" by the staff since you're not just another green fee!

While I joined a public course (Canadian) for the first time this year, I am thouroughly enjoying it so far. I'll continue to play elsewhere with my regular group for the usual Sunday rounds (some will be at my home course ), I enjoy the feeling of going somewhere where you are felt welcome. I've already gotten to know and play with a lot of other members, and it's nice to have the "Norm!!! (remember Cheers?)" when walking into the bar or pro shop.

I'm not sure if I'll be good enough this year to really compete in club tournaments, but I will most certainly enjoy trying to get there. I can definitely see this being a regular thing.

[scottymac]

Looks like I'll be getting a membership next year then. What is a good course in ottawa to get one at? I want something that is very very hard so when I play other courses it is a bit easier for me.

stonebridge is a great course to join, you will get better, and if you can master stonebridge you will master a lot of courses in the ottawa area!!!!

just my views

[Barnie]

Half the fun of golf is playing with your longtime buddies.. Personally it wouldn't be the same playing by myself or with people I just meet at the course.. A friend of mine joined the Royal Ottawa this year, amazing course and he loves it but he's missing hitting it up with us every weekend. He's even debating giving it up next year, although Royal Ottawa is a hard one to give up I'd join Corporate Golf next year if I were you Thotho.. Then you can still play with your friends...