Trackman Indoor

[Frans@france]

The fitter was not the most technologically saavy person... are there any specific instructions I can give him ?

not tech savvy and trackman operator and fitter is imho an unlikely combination. The instructions depend on the software and version used. But when using TPS 2.4 or higher the order is
- button "shot library"
- Select all your sessions by clicking on them
- button "load data". This will load all the shots and send him to the LIVE page
- On the live page select a session
- Then select button "share" This button will ask which sessions must be grouped into the report. Select them and press "Ok"
- The report will be generated and at right-hand side there is "print" (which he did the first time to get you the print-out) but also "save" which will generate a pdf he can send via email....

Hope this helps.

[mthunt]

My contingency is to go to 13 ball to screen and 9 from the TM to the ball if I end up not being happy with the results. I have had good results with the head measurements in the just over 7' marks so far as well so eight should be plenty.

Dax, how's it going with the TM? Are you happy? I'm interested in TM but worried about accuracy indoor.

Thanks,
Mike

[Dax]

Mike,

I had to take a break for two weeks and leave the snow in Calgary. Managed to get five rounds in and just came back yesterday. I did go back on TM last night and did a combine. Everything worked out pretty good although there were 5 missed shots (two of these were with the driver and see my comments below for two others). I will go back to tweaking my set-up a little bit more to see if I can get my TM positioned so that the missed shot percentage goes down, as I am not ready to switch to my back up plan just yet. I also updated to the latest firmware and TPS and will see if that makes any difference. I will post a more solid update on the weekend after I have more time to play around with everything.

In terms of accuracy, it is of course hard for me to say given that I am not seeing full ball flight, but in the combine test yesterday I can note the following:

1. I rarely hit a slice any more, but felt one with the driver last night and it came up as a slice on TM.

2. I seemed to be coming from the outside in with my longer irons yesterday and this was being measured by TM.

3. When I hit the ball with the face open this was accurately registered.

4. All of my miss hits were registered.

5. I did not feel like I hit the ball solid at all during the combine test and note that the results from what TM was reading agreed with what I felt.

6. I believe one of the missed shots with the irons was because the unit was not in the armed mode at the time I hit the ball and thus was not reading shots at that time. The other time with my irons was because I did not hit a ball for a bit as I was playing around a little and the TM unit went into sleep mode.

Hope this helps, but if I was to make a comment from the results so far, I must stress that no one should consider the TM without having a lot of room (I have about 19 feet from the front of the TM unit - it sits out from the wall about 6 inches - to the screen). If I cannot get the results that I am looking for with these distances, then I will switch to the back up plan which gives me an additional five feet (I could add another five feet if I really needed it, but really hope that I do not need to go to that extreme).

[Jsgregg]

Are we talking about knocking down a wall? What drew you to the TM over the GC2?

[Dax]

No walls need to be moved, if I needed to do that then I would have purchased the CG2. All I have to do is reposition my enclosure and then move one car from the garage when I want to hit and this gives me about five feet of additional length and moving both cars would give me even more room.

I chose TM for the added flexibility and the fact that I did not need to move the unit between right and left handed players and was very worried about shanks and miss hits into the CG2 by my son and wife (who is a left handed player). Finally, I get a lot more information from the trackman that I could only get from CG2 by adding the HMT, which would have ended up putting me at the price of the TM.

[Jsgregg]

That all makes sense. How is the w1080ST working out for you?

[Dax]

I have actually still have it set up in my theatre room where it is working great. As I did not buy the sim software yet, waiting for E6 II, I decided not to burn through my screen nor the projector. Once E6 comes out with their latest release, then this will all be put to the test. I do note though that my net enclosure is working much better than expected.

[mthunt]

Thanks Dax. I tried the flightscope today. Hitting it in a 19 foot space seemed like not enough room. I fear the technology needs more, especially with the driver.

I'm looking forward to your further reviewing. I wonder if you'll want the 5 feet in the end. I'm betting that will be more accurate.

Mike

[Dax]

I agree and think that 19 feet is a little tight. Part of my problem seems to be that I am teeing up the ball in a different place than from where I hit my irons from as I have the Truestrike mat and am wondering if I would have had better results going with the country club elite as I could align the TM with one spot and thus decrease misread shots. I believe the issue is with a pure shot with the driver as the ball travels too fast with too low of a spin. Going into this I had thought that my driver has a spin of about 2,800 to 3,000 rpm, but with todays technology that seems to have come down a lot as I am now seeing 2,200 a lot more frequently. My swing speed is right around 100 mph (some above and some below).

The driver is the club that does give me the most misreads. I did another combine today and found that I had three shots that did not get a reading (all with the driver). I will try and tee up in the same spot where I am hitting the irons tomorrow to see if that might resolve the issue. The biggest issue that I had with iron shots in my warm up today was that my wedges did not always have the impact measurements, but this is not a big issue for me as it is nice to have, but don't mind the odd miss here and there on these shots for the club measurements.

I also had a quick look at the maximizer today and it seems to be a really great idea that works pretty well.

In your FS testing, did you mark the balls with a metal sticker in your session today? Was it just the driver that gave you the issue or did you have issues with your irons as well?

[Frans@france]

Part of my problem seems to be that I am teeing up the ball in a different place than from where I hit my irons from.....The driver is the club that does give me the most misreads....

Yes. Not hitting the driver from the same spot or better within the same space as the iron can cause these missed hits. That pickup space is around 13inch width...

With 10feet ball flight and 150mph ball speed the minimum measurable spin rate is around 2.000rpm... 12feet flight will drop that value to 1600rpm, 15 feet to 1300rpm

That said however please be aware that there are driver head designs (and irons designs) that are such that it's surface for radar waves to bounce back off is not large enough. It's like stealth bomber anti-radar design. What I do with those heads is that I place those metal discs used for the ball also on the back of the head. This will make the radar waves reflect a bit better allowing the radar to pick up just a bit more data.

[mthunt]

I agree and think that 19 feet is a little tight. Part of my problem seems to be that I am teeing up the ball in a different place than from where I hit my irons from as I have the Truestrike mat and am wondering if I would have had better results going with the country club elite as I could align the TM with one spot and thus decrease misread shots. I believe the issue is with a pure shot with the driver as the ball travels too fast with too low of a spin. Going into this I had thought that my driver has a spin of about 2,800 to 3,000 rpm, but with todays technology that seems to have come down a lot as I am now seeing 2,200 a lot more frequently. My swing speed is right around 100 mph (some above and some below).

The driver is the club that does give me the most misreads. I did another combine today and found that I had three shots that did not get a reading (all with the driver). I will try and tee up in the same spot where I am hitting the irons tomorrow to see if that might resolve the issue. The biggest issue that I had with iron shots in my warm up today was that my wedges did not always have the impact measurements, but this is not a big issue for me as it is nice to have, but don't mind the odd miss here and there on these shots for the club measurements.

I also had a quick look at the maximizer today and it seems to be a really great idea that works pretty well.

In your FS testing, did you mark the balls with a metal sticker in your session today? Was it just the driver that gave you the issue or did you have issues with your irons as well?

Dax, I only had problems with the driver. Swing speed was 107-110 and spin was showing off the charts. Some were 5000. No one mentioned stickers or anything. I wasn't impressed.

[mthunt]

Yes. Not hitting the driver from the same spot or better within the same space as the iron can cause these missed hits. That pickup space is around 13inch width...

With 10feet ball flight and 150mph ball speed the minimum measurable spin rate is around 2.000rpm... 12feet flight will drop that value to 1600rpm, 15 feet to 1300rpm

That said however please be aware that there are driver head designs (and irons designs) that are such that it's surface for radar waves to bounce back off is not large enough. It's like stealth bomber anti-radar design. What I do with those heads is that I place those metal discs used for the ball also on the back of the head. This will make the radar waves reflect a bit better allowing the radar to pick up just a bit more data.

I think you got that backwards. The further from the screen the more spin is measurable. By your math, wouldn't a ball flight of say 50 feet yield no measurable spin at all? Doesn't the TM need to see 2 revolutions? With a ball speed of 150 and 3000 rpms, it would need say 15 feet but 10 feet at 125 mph and 2000 spin.

[Frans@france]

I think you got that backwards. The further from the screen the more spin is measurable. By your math, wouldn't a ball flight of say 50 feet yield no measurable spin at all? Doesn't the TM need to see 2 revolutions? With a ball speed of 150 and 3000 rpms, it would need say 15 feet but 10 feet at 125 mph and 2000 spin.

No, I'm talking about the lowest spin rate possible to get measured hence the "minimum measurable spin rate " remark. The longer the ball flies the more time the ball has to make it's rotations. If it can only fly 10feet and travels at 150mph then during that 10feet TM will only pickup spin if those are equal or higher then 2.000rpm. If that same ball would fly 15feet then the lowest possible spin rate the TM would be able to measure is around 1300rpm.

To improving pickup of the ball two discs ("snake eye") are needed and correct orientation. With the driver pointing the disc(s) in the direction towards the face with short ball flight. On longer flights (>14feet) orientation towards the target is possible.

It is important that the markers are oriented parallel to the ground and symmetrical around the target line.

[OSpice]

Yes. Not hitting the driver from the same spot or better within the same space as the iron can cause these missed hits. That pickup space is around 13inch width...

With 10feet ball flight and 150mph ball speed the minimum measurable spin rate is around 2.000rpm... 12feet flight will drop that value to 1600rpm, 15 feet to 1300rpm

That said however please be aware that there are driver head designs (and irons designs) that are such that it's surface for radar waves to bounce back off is not large enough. It's like stealth bomber anti-radar design. What I do with those heads is that I place those metal discs used for the ball also on the back of the head. This will make the radar waves reflect a bit better allowing the radar to pick up just a bit more data.

Dax

I too am looking at the trackman and was wondering if I had enough room for the 2 revolutions required by the radar. I created a spreadsheet to calculate the # revolutions based on length and height of ball flight based on launch angle, RPM, and club head speed. Based on your readings of 100 mph, 2200 RPM, an assumption of a perfect hit (smash factor of 1.5), and a launch angle of 10 degrees. I am calculating 1.69 revolutions for 10 ft of ball flight, 1.86 for 11 ft, 2.03 for 12 ft, 2.2 for 13ft, 2.37 for 14ft, and 2.54 for 15ft. Was just wondering if it can track that first "flash" of the marker on the first 1/2 revolution of flight. You may try to rotate the ball 1/4 revolution to give the time for the club head to clear before it is visible to the radar. (marker pointing down instead toward the net) Having said that, I did have TM rep over my house to test out my setup about a year back when he was in town for other business. Had no issues with the driver with 11 feet of distance tee to net, and 7 ft from radar to tee, but was about 95 mph on club head. And I agree, their customer support is top notch.

OSpice

[mthunt]

No, I'm talking about the lowest spin rate possible to get measured hence the "minimum measurable spin rate " remark. The longer the ball flies the more time the ball has to make it's rotations. If it can only fly 10feet and travels at 150mph then during that 10feet TM will only pickup spin if those are equal or higher then 2.000rpm. If that same ball would fly 15feet then the lowest possible spin rate the TM would be able to measure is around 1300rpm.

To improving pickup of the ball two discs ("snake eye") are needed and correct orientation. With the driver pointing the disc(s) in the direction towards the face with short ball flight. On longer flights (>14feet) orientation towards the target is possible.

It is important that the markers are oriented parallel to the ground and symmetrical around the target line.

Oh. I got it backward. Sorry. The more spin the less distance to get two revolutions.. Apologies.

[Dax]

Yes. Not hitting the driver from the same spot or better within the same space as the iron can cause these missed hits. That pickup space is around 13inch width...

With 10feet ball flight and 150mph ball speed the minimum measurable spin rate is around 2.000rpm... 12feet flight will drop that value to 1600rpm, 15 feet to 1300rpm

That said however please be aware that there are driver head designs (and irons designs) that are such that it's surface for radar waves to bounce back off is not large enough. It's like stealth bomber anti-radar design. What I do with those heads is that I place those metal discs used for the ball also on the back of the head. This will make the radar waves reflect a bit better allowing the radar to pick up just a bit more data.

Thank you for the advice on placing the metal sticker on the clubs as well , I will give that a try and see how that works out.

[Dax]

Frans, I agree with your other comments on the spin and distance as well and note that I had thought that TM only needed to measure 1.5 revolutions of the ball to measure the spin. I believe this has to do with where the metal sticker is placed and that with the sticker facing the screen and you hit the ball the ball spins backward and only a half revolutoin is needed for TM to see the sticker and then another full revolution to see the sticker again.

[Dax]

Dax

I too am looking at the trackman and was wondering if I had enough room for the 2 revolutions required by the radar. I created a spreadsheet to calculate the # revolutions based on length and height of ball flight based on launch angle, RPM, and club head speed. Based on your readings of 100 mph, 2200 RPM, an assumption of a perfect hit (smash factor of 1.5), and a launch angle of 10 degrees. I am calculating 1.69 revolutions for 10 ft of ball flight, 1.86 for 11 ft, 2.03 for 12 ft, 2.2 for 13ft, 2.37 for 14ft, and 2.54 for 15ft. Was just wondering if it can track that first "flash" of the marker on the first 1/2 revolution of flight. You may try to rotate the ball 1/4 revolution to give the time for the club head to clear before it is visible to the radar. (marker pointing down instead toward the net) Having said that, I did have TM rep over my house to test out my setup about a year back when he was in town for other business. Had no issues with the driver with 11 feet of distance tee to net, and 7 ft from radar to tee, but was about 95 mph on club head. And I agree, their customer support is top notch.

OSpice

Thanks for the advice, I will give this a try as well (unfortunately too late tonight to get on and try these things) as it does make sense. Customer support did not suggest this, but will also see if it helps improve on my measurements. I also note that the times that I don't get the swing speed up I do seem to get full measurements and it is just those that I really feel I am catching well are getting missed (hard to tell when you don't get a measurement, but will know once I get some more testing of the distances completed), so I can see 95 mph club head speads not getting missed.

In buying the unit, I knew even with a lot of space that I would get shots that are missed as no device is perfect, but it would be nice to know that a perfect drive for me gets measured just as well as a 95 mph drive.

OSpice where are you at in your decision making? Please let me know if there is any testing I can do that might help.

[Frans@france]

Was just wondering if it can track that first "flash" of the marker on the first 1/2 revolution of flight.

For the radar that's not a flash. For the radar the marker is a slow moving target that will measured several times during it rotation while being visible on the back side of the ball. So from the top till the bottom of the ball the radar will measure the marker several times. All those data samples together are then used to get information like speed/spin/angle etc.

[golfsimxpert]

This is by far the best chat I have read on here. The knowledge of the systems you guys have is excellent.

Really appreciate the information you guys provide to the forum. It is great to see.

I personally have owned multiple T Man, GC2, Flightscope, About Golf and various other systems and can honestly say that the results I get from the GC2 indoors especially are the most consistent and accurate I have experienced. I can also say the risk of damaging the GC2 device with a 'shank' is very small if properly protected. In my Trackman days I had numerous occurances of contact with the unit mounted behind and had replaced hydraulic legs and cameras based on this so I think that point almost equals itself out.

With all the apparent requirements to achieve optimal results with the Tman indoors versus the simplicity, consistency and accuracy of the GC2 device I am curious as to where the extra value is in the Trackman for indoor use.

I understand outdoors the pure ability to track carry is an advantage however I also understand that the effects of wind and weather will factor in to spin and launch data skewing outdoor results and making it difficult to compare launch and delivery conditions from different sessions. I also understand that the impact of off centre hits is not factored in to the Trackman club data. The ability of the GC2/HMT system to measure directly impact and lie angles is a superior advantage in both club and ball launch data both indoors and out.

Frans you are most likely an instructor I would imagine so I am curious to know which is of greater value to you - accuracy of data at launch or accuracy of landing position and carry distance.

Ultimately the ideal system for instruction(budget not an issue) which I see a lot in the top academies is the combination of GC2 and HMT for launch and Track man for carry and down range data. Would you agree?

Also would you agree that indoors the GC2 has superior accuracy and consistency?

Always appreciate your input.

[Dax]

I was hoping that this thread would not become a radar versus camera debate, as I have seen this topic come up in other threads and know that we will never resolve this issue. I believe it boils down to what system fits a particular persons parameters the most. With the issue of a few shots not getting read by the system, which I hope to resolve this weekend, I have found that the TM is working very well and most importantly I am having fun with it. As has been said in other threads on many occassions, each system has its limits and its issues and none is perfect.

I believe that TM has also come out and said that they had difficulty measuring gear effect with a particular shot (can't remember which that was, but believe it was a shot off of the toe), but don't believe they said it resulted in measurements be way out on these miss hits. Perhaps Frans can share something more on this.

[Dax]

Dax, I only had problems with the driver. Swing speed was 107-110 and spin was showing off the charts. Some were 5000. No one mentioned stickers or anything. I wasn't impressed.

I cannot believe that you did not have any stickers in your testing and that this was not mentioned during your testing, as I think that would have helped a lot as the radar needs to see the metal stickers in order to get accurate readings for such a short distance. If you can get your hands on some and then go back and retest that would hopefully give you some better readings.

[bubba22]

I was hoping that this thread would not become a radar versus camera debate, as I have seen this topic come up in other threads and know that we will never resolve this issue. I believe it boils down to what system fits a particular persons parameters the most. With the issue of a few shots not getting read by the system, which I hope to resolve this weekend, I have found that the TM is working very well and most importantly I am having fun with it. As has been said in other threads on many occassions, each system has its limits and its issues and none is perfect.

I believe that TM has also come out and said that they had difficulty measuring gear effect with a particular shot (can't remember which that was, but believe it was a shot off of the toe), but don't believe they said it resulted in measurements be way out on these miss hits. Perhaps Frans can share something more on this.

I agree. Let's not make this a camera vs radar debate. There is no right answer!!! Keep us informed on your progress. I am interested in how your Trackman indoors can improve its position on wedges, putting etc.

[Dax]

Thanks Bubba!

In response to you comments, apart from using the Truegolf putting add on (not sure how much this costs), I am not sure that TM will ever read putts. I am not sure what issue on the wedges you are thinking of (is it just the club information not always getting picked up with the wedges that you are curious about)? I did try short chips with my unit when it was delivered and did do a short chip of 6 yards that was measured. I believe that I solved most of these issues by moving the TM off center a little and toeing the unit in a little and am not sure that it miss read any club information at impact and was hitting about 8 feet in front of the TM unit.

[bubba22]

Yes it was wedge play for the short chips. 6 yards is the limit? Putting, you need the Trugolf sensor track? Good info for those looking a this unit for playing a round of golf including chipping and putting.

[golfsimxpert]

Agreed, thanks again for all the good info.

[OSpice]

OSpice where are you at in your decision making? Please let me know if there is any testing I can do that might help.[/QUOTE]

Dax,

Honestly, I was ready to purchase a while back. Then I found this forum. Was just thinking of using the TM for practice, but the draw of the simulation sucked me in. Originally the radar that I was looking at only trackable distance of about 30 yards(before the III) came out. Now I am waiting for the software side of things to catch up. I am also very interested in E6II, and was hoping it would have been released last year. Perfect parallel also looks very tempting and may be gaining some momentum based on their website.

Can you run a few tests for me? The mat I have made has become a hybrid. Originally it was a true strike mat. I just wasn't happy hitting irons off of it. Striking it was fine, but I just hated having to readjust the hitting zone after each hit. The ball would never sit where I wanted it to unless I tapped the hitting surface flat after each hit. Anyway, I cut out the insert and made the "hole" a litter bigger and added a real feel mat and then added a few fiber built inserts as well. The end result is a hitting zone 17 inches wide and about 2 feet (tee to net) long. Can you try moving the ball around within these dimensions to see if the radar will pick up both club and ball.

Also, can you see what the real minimum chip that the radar can pick up. TM states chips as low as 6 feet, but It wasn't specified if it was for indoor mode, outdoor mode, or both.


Thanks in advance

OSPice

[Dax]

Yes it was wedge play for the short chips. 6 yards is the limit? Putting, you need the Trugolf sensor track? Good info for those looking a this unit for playing a round of golf including chipping and putting.

I think the lower limit is stated as 6 feet, but I have yet to test that and 6 yards is the lowest that I have recorded so far. It's the beginning of the season and my hands are still like bricks unfortunately.

[Frans@france]

In my Trackman days I had numerous occurances of contact with the unit mounted behind and had replaced hydraulic legs and cameras based on this so I think that point almost equals itself out..

Contact with the TM which sits between 7 - 11 feet behind the player???? I stand there (next to the TM) to see the swing from that angle and never ever had the club being even close to me.....

Like with some of your postings in the http://forum.ottawagolf.com/showthre...online!/page11 thread I have trouble believing you....

[Dax]

A quick update, I have spent the last couple of weeks testing the Trackman in many different measurements using a modified set up and I must say that in all of my tests I have not had one shot that was missed (club tracking still needs some work for me, but getting each shot read was very satisfying). One other thing that I found was that I did get good reads from 10.5 feet and the unit 7 feet behind me just a few days ago in my testing. Given this I believe that while I thought my TM was level to my hitting zone I actually believe that it was higher and it was tjhis error in my set up that gave me my initial issue of having shots not register. As a result I am going to move everything back to my initial setup again and do some more testing. One other thing that was great was that I was able to quickly adjust my temp and elevation settings to what I played on the weekend and my distances seemed to be extremely accurate. I will post more after I reconfigure, but overall I am very happy with what i am getting and just wished that I tried moving the unit up and down rather than just right to left before moving everything.