One Plane or Two?

[PowerFade]

There's an interesting article in the latest Golf Digest about two types of swings and how you get messed up when you generally swing one way (single plane or double plane) and start using tips that fit with the other way. What do the experts here think?

Also, I'd be interested to hear the single-axis guys on this subject. I have not studied the single-axis swing but the little I think I know about it, it seems to be similar to the single plane swing with the wider stance and single plane, and like the double plane with the more upright posture. Really I don't have a clue here, so can someone enlighten me on this? (And yes, I know they are fundamentally different ways of swinging the golf club, but do you see any similarities with the single/double plane theory?)

On a personal note, when I'm swinging very well I feel like the single plane looks.

[byerxa]

I'm quite interested in the experts' feedback as well. I just read the article tonight and basically almost everything described about the single axis swing is where I feel I am working towards (although in reality I could be doing something completely different !)

[BC MIST]

I'm quite interested in the experts' feedback as well. I just read the article tonight and basically almost everything described about the single axis swing is where I feel I am working towards (although in reality I could be doing something completely different !)

I have not read the article in GD but have seen many posts on the single plane swing, elsewhere. There is a difference between single axis and single plane. In a single axis swing there is a straight line drawn along the shaft axis at address and the right forearm, when looking down-the-line. In the conventional swing there is an obtuse angle formed between the shaft and the right arm.

In almost every swing the hands move back and around, along the shaft address plane and then about waist high they move above this plane to somewhere near the shoulder plane, the line drawn from the ball to the shoulders. In the downswing, good golfers return the hands to a point close to the shaft axis plane or even along it. In the single axis swing the same thing happens. Moe Norman, actually took the club back below the shaft axis plane, moved it to the top above the shaft axis plane, and then got it back on this plane just below shoulder height in the downswing.

Now in the single plane swing the hands move back along the shaft axis plane and stay there, therefore, the golfer does not need to drop the hands back down to the shaft axis plane. Theoretically, it should be easier to do, and so consistency should be better. Guys like Zach Johnson and Chad Campbell are very close to single plane and both are very consistent ball strikers. IMO, if more golfers had "flatter" swing planes, or closer to single plane, they would be better ball strikers. Guys who have upright swings, where the plane is far above the shaft axis plane at the top, have to have excessive lower body motion to compensate for the "fault" of a too upright swing. Jack Nicklaus used to have a lot of leg drive and many thought erroneously that this was his source of power, however, can you imagine his upright swing with little leg drive? He would have hit dead pulls or 50 yard slices. Now, many golfers play well with an upright swing, but they must possess superior talent/timing.

Interestingly, over the years many great players, who once had upright swings have flattened their swing plane, notably Tiger Woods, Ernie Els, Nick Faldo, and Jack Nicklaus, to name a few.

Moe Norman and Ben Hogan were reputed to be the best ball strikers ever and both of them tried to make the downswing as flat as possible. They both felt as though they were putting their hands in their back right hip pocket as they started down. The farther behind your bum you can get the club head on the way down, the better you are going to hit it. The scholars on TV will say that in doing this the club will get "stuck," however, getting "stuck," is caused by the excessive motion of the lower body with the club head behind you, not getting the club behind you. Hogan had the club head behind him on the way down, and yet he hit a nice little fade. While in his book he talked about the turning of his hips, if you have seen his swing on video, particularly the 1965 Shell match against Sam Snead, he actually has relatively little lower body motion.

Interesting stuff. Would I ever like to see Tiger Woods with Chad Campbell’s swing. Unbeatable

[byerxa]

I have had some instructors try to get my backswing higher, i.e., when looking up the line my hands would be directly above or even inside my right shoulder at the top of the swing. However, to do that it is very forced for me and causes me to reverse pivot way to easily. My natural backswing is to see my hands slightly behind a line drawn up from my right shoulder (my backswing actually looks not bad and something like Tiger's, although the end results are sure not like Tiger's! ). From there if I simply start the swing with the lower body and let the arms be "pulled" by the body from behind. When I do it right, I hit the ball very nicely with a slight draw with no explicit hand/wrist/arm action.

I find I do not get blocked per se; I find as long as I lag the club from behind properly the swing is sort of self correcting in that I will actually see pushes draw back somewhat. The real problem occurs when I attempt to hit at the ball too early (with the old OTT move) - either duck hook or a nasty push slice.

From what I've read, Hogan had a natural draw (should with the in-out move) and actually fought the left shot, hence he "manufactured" a fade to eliminate the left side. I am starting to see this as well - my main flaw (beyond the old OTT habits) is to overpower the ball and produce a high power draw bordering on a hook. I have started working on developing a fade (which is manufactured for me) to deal with the "left is not an option" scenario.

[PowerFade]

Very interesting, BC. If you get a chance check out page 103 in the GD--the stance reminds me very much of Moe Norman. The differences I see are grip and posture (Moe was more upright, I think).

How flat was Lee Travino? He also was reputed to be one of the best ballstrikers. Can he be compared to Moe Norman and Ben Hogan in any way?

[BC MIST]

Very interesting, BC. If you get a chance check out page 103 in the GD--the stance reminds me very much of Moe Norman. The differences I see are grip and posture (Moe was more upright, I think).

How flat was Lee Travino? He also was reputed to be one of the best ballstrikers. Can he be compared to Moe Norman and Ben Hogan in any way?

When Trevino was in his ball striking prime, his backswing was well above the shaft axis plane, but he made a huge inside loop and ended up on perfect plane. His swing looked unorthodox partly because of the wide open stance and the loop, however, it was one of the best, because: 1. his hands were ahead of the ball at impact, 2. his left wrist was flat and his right wrist was bent and 3. his club head approached the ball from the inside, with a slightly open club face. He always aimed left so his fade brought him back to the middle.

From what I've read, Hogan had a natural draw (should with the in-out move) and actually fought the left shot, hence he "manufactured" a fade to eliminate the left side.
During his "Power Golf," days Hogan fought the hook, however, in his "5 Fundamentals," days, his modified swing resulted in a straight shot with a hint of a fade at the end. The major modification was the extremely weak position of his right hand which prevented the face from rolling over, causing the hook. Like Trevino, Hogan apparently just aimed fractionally left of target. The fade was not a cut shot, but a slight push/fade.

[PowerFade]

When Trevino was in his ball striking prime, his backswing was well above the shaft axis plane, but he made a huge inside loop and ended up on perfect plane. His swing looked unorthodox partly because of the wide open stance and the loop, however, it was one of the best, because: 1. his hands were ahead of the ball at impact, 2. his left wrist was flat and his right wrist was bent and 3. his club head approached the ball from the inside, with a slightly open club face. He always aimed left so his fade brought him back to the middle.

Unlike single-axis and the GD article single plane, Trevino had some major leg action, didn't he?

[HiG4s]

I saw an interview with Trevino,, he said his ball striking ability came from going to the driving range and hitting 1000 balls a day, every day, for many years.
I have to think no matter how un-standard your swing is, if you practice enough you can make it work.


As far as single plane and double plane, I guess what ever works for you. But on the single axis vs double axis I don't think I've ever seen a pro with a single axis swing..

Isn't the single axis the basis of The Natural Golf System? I know for a few years I tried to swing that way and it was an improvment over what I had been doing but once I took lessons and went back to a normal two-axis swing with some actual knowledge of how to do it right I became much better. Matter of fact when having a bad day I sometimes fall back on the habits of my old single axis swing and that is when I play my worst.

[BC MIST]

While Tiger is a double plane swinger, here he is in a single plane position shortly after he has begun his downswing. If we mortals could achieve this position at the top of the backswing in a single plane swing, or just after the start of the downswing in a doulbe plane swing, our ball striking would be superb. This position of Tiger's is also one reason why his ball striking has improved in recent months as he is no longer a little over the top, and his lower body does not always race ahead of his upper.

The only difference between Tiger's position and the single plane position at the top, is that Tiger's right elbow is tucked in a little, whereas, at the top, the upper arm would be parallel to his back.

[oldmaninblack]

I switched, first to Natural Golf, then to single axis golf last summer. I broke 80 for the first time since 1987. I credit the Graves Golf Academy ... Todd Graves helped start Natural Golf then moved off in a slightly different direction. He worked with Moe Norman for several years and has appeared on the Golf Channel.
www.swinglikemoe.com

If I don't hit 12 of 14 fairways in a round, I've had a bad day. I have NOT lost distance. My average drive is around 250 (I'm 51). My irons attack the pin like a laser. If I could putt ...

[PowerFade]

For what it's worth, here's something from your link, oldmaninblack:

Realizing that the current 'handicapping' system was not the most accurate way to gauge the overall level of a golfer's skills, the Graves Golf Academy developed the Seven Principles of Golf Improvement. The Seven Principles allow you to gauge your game in EACH specific area compared to a scratch golfer. By understanding and applying the Seven Principles, you can focus on areas of weakness in your game and work to strengthen the areas you are strongest in, helping you shortcut the process of achieving your goals.

The Seven Principles of Golf Improvement; anatomy of a scratch golfer 1. Develop a Sound, Repeatable, Powerful Swing of Ease based on Moe Norman’s Golf Swing. (Single Plane / Straight Line Motion). 2. Develop an efficient Short Game (50% up and down). 3. Become a good Putter (Under 30 putts per round). 4. Build or buy Clubs That Fit your game. 5. Learn to Play on the course using developed skills. (Course Management). 6. Learn How to Practice efficiently. 7.Learn How to Think.

[BC MIST]

I switched, first to Natural Golf, then to single axis golf last summer. I broke 80 for the first time since 1987. I credit the Graves Golf Academy ... Todd Graves helped start Natural Golf then moved off in a slightly different direction. He worked with Moe Norman for several years and has appeared on the Golf Channel.
www.swinglikemoe.com

If I don't hit 12 of 14 fairways in a round, I've had a bad day. I have NOT lost distance. My average drive is around 250 (I'm 51). My irons attack the pin like a laser. If I could putt ...

Holy Smokes! Another single axis golfer. We should form a fraternity. A union? A brotherhood? We should have an annual single axis tournament. How many strokes do I get?

I now know of 5 golfers who have made the switch to an SA swing and without exception, none have lost distance as some forum members believe. I wonder if the "single axis golfers can't hit the ball as far," group will rethink their position. Even if a thousand converts said the same, I doubt if minds will be changed.

Interestingly, now 4 of the 5 SA converts, all of whom are in their 50's hit the ball about 250. What would happen if all single axis golfers became single plane golfers as well? Unbeatable

I agree that the direction Todd & Tim Graves went is sounder than where Natural Golf went, but BOTH are single axis swings. I have the first two tapes of their new series and they are very well done.

[broken27]

Holy Smokes! Another single axis golfer. We should form a fraternity. A union? A brotherhood? We should have an annual single axis tournament. How many strokes do I get?

I now know of 5 golfers who have made the switch to an SA swing and without exception, none have lost distance as some forum members believe. I wonder if the "single axis golfers can't hit the ball as far," group will rethink their position. Even if a thousand converts said the same, I doubt if minds will be changed.

Interestingly, now 4 of the 5 SA converts, all of whom are in their 50's hit the ball about 250. What would happen if all single axis golfers became single plane golfers as well? Unbeatable

I agree that the direction Todd & Tim Graves went is sounder than where Natural Golf went, but BOTH are single axis swings. I have the first two tapes of their new series and they are very well done.

I think the main thing is that people will do what SEEMS to be right, rather than what is PROVEN to be right. Now, the jury may still be out on the two golf swing philosophies, but as BCMIST will attest to, I've asked for more info about what seems to be a plausible golf swing theory.

Why?

Well, I'm at the crossroads of engraining a permanent swing habit, and I think it's the perfect time to see if Single-Axis might work better FOR ME.

People who criticize it may have valid points, but those points generally apply to themselves or to their own experiences.

As of now, I've not seen step 1 of the Single-Axis method. I don't even know many of the example golfers like Moe Norman all that well... Certainly not well enough to contextualize the reference...

If you OG Forum guys would like, I'll chronicle some of the principles I uncover over my learning period, and maybe it will shed some light about what the differences are in terms of EXPERIENCE rather than PHYSICS.

Dan

[dlaville]

Now in the single plane swing the hands move back along the shaft axis plane and stay there, therefore, the golfer does not need to drop the hands back down to the shaft axis plane.

This isn't true. The term "single plane swing" is inaccurate and misleading. A more accurate term would be "single plane angle swing". With both SP and DP swings the players shift to higher planes. The difference is that with a SP swing the player shifts to a higher but parallel plane, hence a single plane angle. With a DP swing the player shifts to a higher and slightly steeper plane.

To see what a single plane swing is visit One Plane Golf Swing.

[BC MIST]

This isn't true. The term "single plane swing" is inaccurate and misleading. A more accurate term would be "single plane angle swing". With both SP and DP swings the players shift to higher planes. The difference is that with a SP swing the player shifts to a higher but parallel plane, hence a single plane angle. With a DP swing the player shifts to a higher and slightly steeper plane.

To see what a single plane swing is visit One Plane Golf Swing.

I stand corrected.

From the shots in your link, VJ's left arm coincides with his shoulders, but that plane is obviously above, but parallel to the shaft axis plane. Tom's left arm is more vertical than his shoulder plane.

The idea of the hands not having to drop back to the shaft axis plane is characteristic of a single axis player(Moe Norman, Todd Graves) and me, where the shaft axis plane is already more vertical than that of a conventional golfer at address. I have traced the path of Moe's, Todd's and my own hands and they return much more quickly to his shaft axis plane than VJ's, because the distance to get there is smaller. Actually mine get there faster than Moe's or Todd's so why can't I hit the ball as well?

[oldmaninblack]

This isn't true. The term "single plane swing" is inaccurate and misleading. A more accurate term would be "single plane angle swing". With both SP and DP swings the players shift to higher planes. The difference is that with a SP swing the player shifts to a higher but parallel plane, hence a single plane angle. With a DP swing the player shifts to a higher and slightly steeper plane.

To see what a single plane swing is visit One Plane Golf Swing.

good link ... I had noticed some similarities between Vijay's swing and Moe Norman's swing. I guess that's one of the reasons Vijay called Moe the best golfer he's ever seen. I was always a single-plane swinger ... going the extra step to single axis puts me in the fairway more often. It also gives me more time to work on my short game since I don't have to worry so much about the driver. Unfortunately, like Moe Norman, my putter is NOT my favourite club.

[kewarken]

This is fascinating. This guy claims there are two types of swing and the fundamentals for each are different.

http://golfdigest.com/instruction/in...ingplane1.html

cheers,

Kris