Ball under the heavy branch

[Rauski]

A little bit hard situation? Anyone know whats ruling? Happened in real life. Right handed player hits the ball under heavy, thick and low situated branch. Only way he can hit the ball is left handed. Now his shot is not so lucky and it goes out of bounds. Okay, back to the last place and drop the ball, he knows the place exactly where he hitted the ball. Now there is some problems, he can't drop the ball according to the rules so that his hand is straight because of that thick branch. His hand must go thorough the branch, but that is impossible. He can bend his knees to go 40 cm lower with straight hand or he can go 30 cm back from the last point. If he do the last one he gets benefit so that he can hit the ball right handed and to the fairway which was not possible in first hit. If he do the first one his dropping "stance" is not according to the rules. Anyone can help? Hopefully you understood this, english is not my native language.

[gbower]

The player must drop the ball as near as possible to where he last played his stroke even though the tree branch is in the way. The ball may strike the branch and where ever it rolls to within 2 club lengths from the point it strikes the branch it will be in play as long as it's not closer to the hole. You must drop from shoulder height and arm extended. As another option I'm pretty sure the player could declare the ball unplayable and with an additional penalty stroke take a drop under that rule. (AAA help me on this one) Your English was good enough to understand the situation.

[AAA]

The requirement to drop the ball from shoulder height and arms length is mandatory. The only leeway is 'as near as possible'. Dropping onto the branch would produce a random result which would have a high probability that it would be further away than the alternative. So the answer must be (IMO) to drop away from the branch where it gives a vertical line as near as possible to the original spot.

I see no reason why declaring the ball unplayable is not an option.

[gbower]

Thanks AAA, I have seen this situation on paper before and remember reading about dropping away a bit where a drop was possible but my old memory doesn't remember where I saw it. That makes sense if a drop at all isn't possible. I would probably take the unplayable myself with the additional penalty.

[adanac]

Thanks AAA, I have seen this situation on paper before and remember reading about dropping away a bit where a drop was possible but my old memory doesn't remember where I saw it. That makes sense if a drop at all isn't possible. I would probably take the unplayable myself with the additional penalty.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the situation here, but this player is trying to proceed under Rule 27-1 since his last stroke went out of bounds. He must put a ball into play under that Rule before he can deem the ball unplayable under Rule 28.

[gbower]

adanac if it is impossible for the player to drop as it would roll off the branches or he can't get at that location I would allow the unplayable with the additional penalty (total of 2 penalty strokes, one for stroke & distance and one for unplayable). This would be an equity situation (Rule 1-4) The reference point for the unplayable relief would have to be estimated, although the spot of the original stroke would be known, and proceed from there. He doesn't get out of the stroke & distance penalty.

[AAA]

I agree

[adanac]

Your decision would be contrary to the Rules of golf, and equity can not be used because it is a point the Rules already cover. The player must first drop his ball under 27-1, properly and as near as possible to the original spot. Not dropping is not an option (Apollo 13). If I were the player, I would not accept your ruling and insist on making a proper drop, then consider my options. It is only me that can deem the ball in play unplayable, and there must be a ball in play to deem it unplayable.
There is no "regression" (a la 26-2) available under Rule 28 which is what you're trying to do.

[nokids]

the ante has been upped

[BC MIST]

Your decision would be contrary to the Rules of golf, and equity can not be used because it is a point the Rules already cover. The player must first drop his ball under 27-1, properly and as near as possible to the original spot. Not dropping is not an option (Apollo 13). If I were the player, I would not accept your ruling and insist on making a proper drop, then consider my options. It is only me that can deem the ball in play unplayable, and there must be a ball in play to deem it unplayable.
There is no "regression" (a la 26-2) available under Rule 28 which is what you're trying to do.

Referring to Decision 18-2a/29, in the 3rd part where the player cannot replace the ball where it originally lay, the ruling is that the player MUST proceed under the unplayable ball rule. Would that not be the appropriate ruling for scenario posted above?

[adanac]

Referring to Decision 18-2a/29, in the 3rd part where the player cannot replace the ball where it originally lay, the ruling is that the player MUST proceed under the unplayable ball rule. Would that not be the appropriate ruling for scenario posted above?

Not in my opinion. In the specific instance (3) of that Decision, it is physically impossible to replace the ball. The player in the original post can properly drop the ball as near as possible to the original spot. It's just not "as near" as some posters would like.

[gbower]

Give us your solution then adanac.

[AAA]

there must be a ball in play to deem it unplayable.

28a does not require a ball to be in play. 28/1

[adanac]

Give us your solution then adanac.

I thought I had done that - make a proper drop as near as possible to the orginal spot. Proceed from there.

[adanac]

28a does not require a ball to be in play. 28/1

The player in 28/1 has a ball in play - his original ball is in play. I'm not certain how a player can deem his ball unplayable until he has a ball in play (although there may be some technical reason such as in 18-2a/15 where the lifted ball doesn't technically satisfy the defintion of ball in play)?

[gbower]

So what if as the OP said it's impossible to make a drop where the original ball was?

[gbower]

I would do whatever possible if there is any way to drop where the original ball was but I'm not going to just let the player lower his drop and an unplayable in this situation would be a last resort and not given as one of the options until a drop isn't possible.

[adanac]

So what if as the OP said it's impossible to make a drop where the original ball was?

The Rule says "as near as possible". And that's wise, because circumstances of the situation may well dictate what is "as near as possible". In this situation, imo, making the drop properly (shoulder height etc) is a higher priority than distance from the original spot, but I still want it to be "as near as possible" under the circumstances.

[AAA]

The player in 28/1 has a ball in play - his original ball is in play.

Not necessarily. We are not told where exactly the ball was. It may have been OOB.

[adanac]

Not necessarily. We are not told where exactly the ball was. It may have been OOB.

If his ball were to be out of bounds, then technically 28a would be an inapplicable Rule; it would be Rule 27-1. The three s&d Rules (26-1a, 27-1, 28a) were all linked in 2012 to resolve any "inapplicable Rule" situations between them.

But this discussion doesn't address the situation in the original post - the player in that situation was able to properly drop a ball within 12-13 inches of the original spot, which imo, meets the requirement of "as near as possible", given that he could not properly drop it any closer.
For the record, if the player was tyring to drop "as near as possible" in the middle of the fairway, 12-13 inches wouldn't meet my standard. But in the case of the original post, that was the best he could do.

[AAA]

You've convinced me. He can't take an unplayable but must drop it correctly as near as possible.

[Rauski]

I think this is the main problem: 27-1 At any time, a player may, under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played. Player knows the place exactly but can't drop under the rules. Player must play as near as possible, but he must drop the ball exactly to the place where it was before going out.

[adanac]

I think this is the main problem: 27-1 At any time, a player may, under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played. Player knows the place exactly but can't drop under the rules. Player must play as near as possible, but he must drop the ball exactly to the place where it was before going out.

Rule 27-1 says that he must play a ball "as near as possible" to the spot from which the last ball was played; Rule 20-2 describes how he must drop (stand erect, arm extended at shoulder height) and that it needs to be "as near as possible" to the original spot, so he doesn't need to drop the ball "exactly to the place". You described a situation where, in order to drop correctly, "as near as possible" is 30 cm.

[gbower]

I can live with that ruling.

[JGT4]

Thanks AAA, I have seen this situation on paper before and remember reading about dropping away a bit where a drop was possible but my old memory doesn't remember where I saw it. That makes sense if a drop at all isn't possible. I would probably take the unplayable myself with the additional penalty.

Gerry, this is probably what you remember. From the 2010 MGA quiz:

15. A player’s ball lies in a bunker in an area completely overhung by knee-high
branches of a tree. He fairly takes his stance, plays a stroke and the
ball goes out of bounds. When he drops under R27-1, the ball first strikes
a branch and then falls into the bunker. The player:
a. Must play from where the ball comes to rest.
b. Must re-drop and, if the ball again strikes the branch, he should
place the ball in the bunker at the point below which it struck the
branch.
c. Must place the ball in the bunker within one club length no closer to
the hole from the point in the bunker immediately below where the
ball first struck the branch.
d. Should move to the closest point in the bunker, no closer to the
hole, and drop the ball where it will not strike a branch.

The answer given:

#15 d R20-5c,D20-2c/1.3 Ball did not first strike a part of the course where the
rule requires.

[LobWedge]

Gerry, this is probably what you remember. From the 2010 MGA quiz:

15. A player’s ball lies in a bunker in an area completely overhung by knee-high
branches of a tree. He fairly takes his stance, plays a stroke and the
ball goes out of bounds. When he drops under R27-1, the ball first strikes
a branch and then falls into the bunker. The player:
a. Must play from where the ball comes to rest.
b. Must re-drop and, if the ball again strikes the branch, he should
place the ball in the bunker at the point below which it struck the
branch.
c. Must place the ball in the bunker within one club length no closer to
the hole from the point in the bunker immediately below where the
ball first struck the branch.
d. Should move to the closest point in the bunker, no closer to the
hole, and drop the ball where it will not strike a branch.

The answer given:

#15 d R20-5c,D20-2c/1.3 Ball did not first strike a part of the course where the
rule requires.

Another good example of how the margin of a bunker extends vertically downwards, but not upwards.

[gbower]

Thanks John, I think I have it sorted out and that was probably the one I remembered but couldn't find it.