DMD Question

[LobWedge]

Putting this one out there for debate. I don't know the answer, or even if one exists.

A player arrives at the first tee to begin his round. The first hole is particularly difficult. Not very long, but the tee shot has to be very precise. The teeing ground is elevated, and the landing area is quite narrow.

He pulls a DMD out of his bag and lasers the distance and slope angle, then walks over and hands the DMD to a friend who's a spectator. He pulls an iron from his bag, tees up his ball, and plays his first stroke.

14-3 says, "during a stipulated round". However, the player's stipulated round hadn't begun yet when he used the DMD. Would the Committee be justified in disqualifying the player under 33-7 for a serious breach of etiquette (spirit of the game)?

[Kilroy]

In my opinion, yes. He should be DQ'd as it's obvious that his intent was to use a prohibited device to assist him in his shot selection. However, had he done that earlier in the day, rather than once he had arrived at the tee to play it would be hard to fault him as it's normal practice on many tours to use these devices when scouting a course prior to an event. Tough one.

[gbower]

The stipulated round hasn't started. What difference does it make if he uses it two minutes or two hours before starting his round.

[AAA]

As gb says, he hasn't started his round. See 8-1/18

14-3 Except as provided in the Rules, during a stipulated round the player must not use any artificial device .........

[LobWedge]

That's why I asked this one. I honestly think both outcomes could be acceptable in this case.

On the one hand, the letter of the law states that he's not in violation of 14-3, because he hasn't used the device during his stipulated round. On the other hand, it could be argued that the player basically "thumbed his nose" at 14-3 by using a DMD to taking a measurement of the current conditions immediately prior to making his first stroke. That point could be argued as a serious etiquette violation.

AAA, I see your point about 8-1/18 but, I think 33-7/8 also requires consideration.

[gbower]

Rich how can there be any breach as he hasn't started his round. He could walk the entire course and use his slope enabled DMD to measure whatever he wanted so what difference does it make if he does it just before he starts. I see no etiquette breach at all.

[LobWedge]

Rich how can there be any breach as he hasn't started his round. He could walk the entire course and use his slope enabled DMD to measure whatever he wanted so what difference does it make if he does it just before he starts. I see no etiquette breach at all.

Gerry, I didn't say there was a breach or not. I don't know the outcome, but I'm sure it could be looked at from either perspective.

[gbower]

I don't see how you can look at it from either perspective as it seems pretty black and white.

[AAA]

33-7/8 A serious breach of etiquette is behavior by a player that shows a significant disregard for an aspect of the Etiquette Section,

Where is this problem mentioned or even hinted at in the Etiquette Section?

No breach of any rule.

[mpare]

This is an interesting question. The manner in which it has been answered suggests that on the first tee, any player, before hitting his first shot, may ask another player who just teed off in his group "What club did you use?" He hasn't breached a rule, because he has not begun his stipulated round. I would assume as well that the player who responded "I hit a 6 iron, but didn't catch it all" is not to be penalized either, because he didn't provide any advice to a fellow competitor since the player to whom he spoke had not begun his round. Is that right?

[gbower]

Unfortunately Mike if the player answers after he has played a stroke he will be penalized as his stipulated round has started.

[mpare]

But the person to whom he has provided the answer is not, as you yourself have already pointed out, a player on the course as he has not teed off on the first hole. I thought that one was prohibited from providing advice to another player only. Rule 8 prohibits giving advice to "anyone in the competition playing on the course other than his partner." The guy who has not yet teed off is not a person playing on the course, since his stipulated round has not begun. Were it otherwise, then if someone in the crowd asked you what club you hit and you answered, then you would be penalized? Something is amiss here.

Unfortunately Mike if the player answers after he has played a stroke he will be penalized as his stipulated round has started.

[gbower]

You might be right but I don't think so as the neither player can be playing in the competition at the time the advice is given. We'll see what other results come up as I'm sure AAA or Lyle will chime in.

[mpare]

Please reread my initial question, Gerry. The guy who asked the other player which club he just hit had not yet teed off. Clearly, when he asked the question he was not playing a stipulated round. The guy who answered, though, had just hit so he is engaged in a stipulated round. Normally, if the latter player provides advice to another player, then he has breached Rule 8. However, by responding to the question of someone who has not begun his stipulated round, then he cannot have breached Rule 8, since at that stage the person receiving the information is really no different than a fan. Does that make it clearer for you?

You might be right but I don't think so as the neither player can be playing in the competition at the time the advice is given. We'll see what other results come up as I'm sure AAA or Lyle will chime in.

[LobWedge]

33-7/8 A serious breach of etiquette is behavior by a player that shows a significant disregard for an aspect of the Etiquette Section,

Where is this problem mentioned or even hinted at in the Etiquette Section?

No breach of any rule.

Spirit of the Game...

[mpare]

Rich, in my scenario, do you think that the spirit of the game has been compromised? For what it's worth, I think it has in both the original post and in my scenario. But I'm not a rules official.

Spirit of the Game...

[AAA]

Golf is played, for the most part, without the supervision of a referee or umpire. The game relies on the integrity of the individual to show consideration for other players and to abide by the Rules. All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be. This is the spirit of the game of golf.

Where are either of the players breaching the spirit of the game? Neither has breached a rule. Remember, if the rules don't say you can't, then you can. That is abiding by the rules. When applying the Rules, you follow them line by line. You don't read between them.

[LobWedge]

As I said before, it's out there for discussion. I'm not taking sides on this one.

[mpare]

So am I correct about the ruling in my scenario?

Golf is played, for the most part, without the supervision of a referee or umpire. The game relies on the integrity of the individual to show consideration for other players and to abide by the Rules. All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be. This is the spirit of the game of golf.

Where are either of the players breaching the spirit of the game? Neither has breached a rule. Remember, if the rules don't say you can't, then you can. That is abiding by the rules. When applying the Rules, you follow them line by line. You don't read between them.

[BC MIST]

As I said before, it's out there for discussion. I'm not taking sides on this one.

To Mike's point. 8-1 states that during a stipulated round, a player is not to give advice to a competitor playing on the course. Is the player who has not yet started, ON the course? If not, then why should the player who is, be penalized? But, the definition of "course," is the whole area within any boundaries established by the Committee. Therefore, the player who has not yet started his stipulated round IS, in fact, on the course, assuming that he is on or near the first tee, and so the advice given by the other player has to be advice, for which there is a penalty.

[mpare]

But, Lyle, the rule prohibits giving advice not to a player who is simply on course, but one who is "playing on the course." Since the player, who asked the question, had not begun his stipulated round (he had not teed off), then the competitor who answered his question did not give advice to a person who was "playing on the course." As such, there should be no penalty to either player. What am I missing?

To Mike's point. 8-1 states that during a stipulated round, a player is not to give advice to a competitor playing on the course. Is the player who has not yet started, ON the course? If not, then why should the player who is, be penalized? But, the definition of "course," is the whole area within any boundaries established by the Committee. Therefore, the player who has not yet started his stipulated round IS, in fact, on the course, assuming that he is on or near the first tee, and so the advice given by the other player has to be advice, for which there is a penalty.

[BC MIST]

But, Lyle, the rule prohibits giving advice not to a player who is simply on course, but one who is "playing on the course." Since the player, who asked the question, had not begun his stipulated round (he had not teed off), then the competitor who answered his question did not give advice to a person who was "playing on the course." As such, there should be no penalty to either player. What am I missing?

Probably nothing. Hopefully AAA will straightened us out but he is probably sleeping right now.

[Kilroy]

I have on many occasions referred to studying the rules of golf as "Law light". This debate is a perfect example of why. Great stuff.

[mpare]

I had to restrain myself from characterizing this as a question of statutory interpretation.

I have on many occasions referred to studying the rules of golf as "Law light". This debate is a perfect example of why. Great stuff.

[Kilroy]

LOL We miss you at the course Mike!

[Kilroy]

To save others the trouble. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_interpretation

[mpare]

And I miss playing with the guys in Ottawa.

LOL We miss you at the course Mike!

[AAA]

A player is not 'playing on the course' until he has made his first stroke.

[mpare]

That means then that absent resort to the equity rule, every player in a group who has not teed off on the first hole can ask the players who have hit, which club they used, and the persons, who were asked, can answer, and none of those players will be penalized. That seems to me to be against the spirit of the game.

Forgive me for pushing, but I'd like someone to deal with this scenario, and answer my question directly. So far, the rules aficionados have danced around the edges.

A player is not 'playing on the course' until he has made his first stroke.

[AAA]

I have answered all the questions directly. IMO, no breach.

If you are not happy with this response please contact the R&A (or RCGA) on their website.