Pop Quiz

[LobWedge]

Dave and Joe are opponents. On the 5th hole they are preparing to play 2nd shots to the par-4 green. Dave is away by a couple of yards, and plays first.

The ball bounces twice and disappears in to the hole for an eagle 2. Dave turns to Joe, holding his club out sole first and shouts, "7-iron baby!"

Joe reaches down and picks up his ball.

What is the result of the hole?

[jsttaylor]

In match play I think joe loses the hole for picking up his ball. He's probably assuming Dave loses the hole for telling him what club he used but you can always volunteer info, just can't ask for it as far as I know. Most likely going to lose the hole after an eagle on a par 4 anyway.
In stroke play I'm not too sure. DQ'd I think.
Close?

[Kilroy]

If they are opponents it is match play. In stroke play they would be fellow competitors.

[BC MIST]

In match play I think joe loses the hole for picking up his ball. He's probably assuming Dave loses the hole for telling him what club he used but you can always volunteer info, just can't ask for it as far as I know.
Close?

Actually there are some circumstances when you cannot volunteer information and others where you can ask.

[BC MIST]

If they are opponents it is match play. In stroke play they would be fellow competitors.

I wonder what the rules knowledge lacking golf commentators on TV would say if they were asked what form of play is being used when golfers are "playing partners"?

[Kilroy]

Anything but Team Match Play

[steb]

I think I'd have to award the hole to Joe.

Although the statement was said casually (i.e. not intended to advise) and 8-1/8 says no breach, 8-1/8 also says breach if something similar is said to another player playing from the same spot and I feel that overrules.

[AAA]

I agree with steb.

8-1/8 could be thought to be ambiguous but there is an implied 'but' in the middle.

If the statement was made casually, there was no breach. BUT If the statement was made to another player who had a shot to play from about the same position, there was a breach.

If it were written in reverse, it can be seen that the second sentence overrides the first.

If the statement was made to another player who had a shot to play from about the same position, there was a breach. BUT If the statement was made casually, there was no breach.

[nokids]

Comment About Club Selection After Stroke

Q.After playing a stroke, a player says: "I should have used a 5iron." Was the player in breach of Rule 8-1?

A.If the statement was made casually, there was no breach. If the statement was made to another player who had a shot to play from about the same position, there was a breach.

Joe wins the hole.

[AAA]

I thought steb and I had just said that.

[nokids]

sorry I'm a little slowww ; )

[LobWedge]

The hole is halved.

Firstly, in relation to Dave's actions we have to go to the definition of "Advice".

Advice

“Advice’’ is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke.

Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice.


While Dave didn't offer any formal counsel to Joe regarding club selection, his statement would constitute a "suggestion that could influence" Joe's choice of club for making his next stroke. Even though Dave's statement could be argued as pure excitement over having holed his second shot, there's enough information contained in both the statement and his physical actions to get him in trouble.

So, according to the penalty statement in Rule 8-1, Dave loses the hole, right?

Not exactly. Because Dave had already completed the hole (by holing his second shot) when he violated Rule 8-1, and it was Match Play, the penalty statement in Rule 2-2 comes in to play. "When a player has holed out and his opponent has been left with a stroke for the half, if the player subsequently incurs a penalty, the hole is halved."

[BC MIST]

The hole is halved.

"When a player has holed out and his opponent has been left with a stroke for the half, if the player subsequently incurs a penalty, the hole is halved."

Looks like I am not the only one that you caught. Great question!

[nokids]

The hole is halved.

that's fair

[orangeTANG]

I'm going to file an appeal with the R&A and USGA. The rule should be that the player be penalized 15 yards on their next tee shot since it was after they holed out.

[LobWedge]

Looks like I am not the only one that you caught. Great question!

The holing of Dave's second shot adds a nice wrinkle ;-)

[LobWedge]

Okay, let's say that Dave holes his second shot, which results in much merriment but no Advice violation. Joe makes his stroke to the green and does not hole it. Dave wins the hole.

As they reach the green to retrieve their golf balls, Dave pulls a club from his bag, and while demonstrating the swing motion says, "you should swing more upright."

What happens now?

[LobWedge]

Okay, let's say that Dave holes his second shot, which results in much merriment but no Advice violation. Joe makes his stroke to the green and does not hole it. Dave wins the hole.

As they reach the green to retrieve their golf balls, Dave pulls a club from his bag, and while demonstrating the swing motion says, "you should swing more upright."

What happens now?

No one?

[sliceleft]

Joe wins the next hole?

[LobWedge]

Joe wins the next hole?

Okay. How?

[sliceleft]

Dave breached rule 8 after hole 5 but before hole 6. Rule 2-6 says the penalty is loss of hole, but does not say which hole in this circumstance. The 5th hole is already finished. Rule 1-4 says that if a point is not covered, it should be decided based on equity. The most reasonable place for the penalty to apply is the next hole. It also makes sense that if Dave offered the advice on the green of hole 18, this result would mean there was no penalty since there is no next hole. Somehow I have a feeling that there is a more complex answer.

[steb]

Great first question LobWedge, had me so entrenched in interpreting 8-1/8 I forgot about the halving rule (which makes total sense - advice should give a one shot swing, not a two shot). Not answering your second question until I've had time to think about it.

[LobWedge]

Dave breached rule 8 after hole 5 but before hole 6. Rule 2-6 says the penalty is loss of hole, but does not say which hole in this circumstance. The 5th hole is already finished. Rule 1-4 says that if a point is not covered, it should be decided based on equity. The most reasonable place for the penalty to apply is the next hole. It also makes sense that if Dave offered the advice on the green of hole 18, this result would mean there was no penalty since there is no next hole. Somehow I have a feeling that there is a more complex answer.

Not necessarily more complex, but slightly different.

Rule 2-6 is just a "placeholder" rule that serves to explain the major difference in penalties between Match and Stroke play.

You're on the right track by looking at Rule 8, and your logic in applying 1-4 is sound if you're using just the rulebook, and not the decisions book as well. Have a look at the decisions under Rule 8 and you'll find one that will help support your answer.

Your reference to the 18th green (if the match even goes that far) makes some sense as well. Have a look at the definition of "Stipulated Round" and the decisions under 8-1 for evidence to support your theory.

[sliceleft]

I see 8-1/14 now. I made a career out of reading the Income Tax Act, but the Rules of Golf are more complex.

[AAA]

.

IYO, what is the difference in principle between the last sentence in 8-1/14 and 8-1/6, 7 & 8 ?

[LobWedge]

IYO, what is the difference in principle between the last sentence in 8-1/14 and 8-1/6, 7 & 8 ?

The statements in 8-1/6/7/8 are specifically related to the player's choice of club, and not the method of play, used on a previous hole that has already been completed by both competitors during that stipulated round. There is no advantage to be gained.

The statement made by Player A in 8-1/14, whether well-meant or not, could have an affect on the way Player B will approach a stroke he has yet to play on that hole, and possibly future strokes he will make during the remainder of that stipulated round. The principle of the 2 stroke penalty that applies to A at the next hole if they have both already completed the previous hole, also applies to the loss of hole penalty Dave would be assessed on the next hole of the match in my example.

The language used in the definition of Advice is rooted in present tense, and not in the past.

[AAA]

The statement made by Player A in 8-1/14, whether well-meant or not, could have an affect on the way Player B will approach a stroke he has yet to play on that hole, and possibly future strokes he will make during the remainder of that stipulated round.

The language used in the definition of Advice is rooted in present tense, and not in the past.

Do you not think that knowing that a FC has successfully used a 7 iron for a particular distance on more than one occasion would not be useful the next time the player himself if faced with the same distance. I know what the decisions say but given the words of the definition, what is your opinion on the difference in principle between how to play a stroke and what club to use?

Had both A and B completed the 7th hole, A's penalty would be applied at the 8th hole. is in the past tense.

[LobWedge]

Do you not think that knowing that a FC has successfully used a 7 iron for a particular distance on more than one occasion would not be useful the next time the player himself if faced with the same distance.

Only if golfers were allowed "do-overs", or we had already figured out time travel. The odds are so extremely slim that you won't be faced with that same shot again during the stipulated round, and even if you were, you may use a completely different club or swing the next time around. The information is moot.

I know what the decisions say but given the words of the definition, what is your opinion on the difference in principle between how to play a stroke and what club to use?

I guess my opinion depends on the situation. A statement about club selection can both be moot, because it refers to a previous hole, or it can be used to influence a decision based on play that hasn't happened yet. A statement or demonstration about how to play a particular shot can realistically only have influence on decisions yet to be made.

Had both A and B completed the 7th hole, A's penalty would be applied at the 8th hole. is in the past tense.

I was referring to the language in the definition, not the decision.

[Martin B]

Suppose Joe had teed off first, and had put his ball out of bounds. As you noted Rule 2-2 says When a player has holed out and his opponent has been left with a stroke for the half, if the player subsequently incurs a penalty, the hole is halved."

In this case, Joe does not have a stroke to Halve the hole (as he was three of the tee). Does this cancel the application of 2-2 so does 8-1 apply to make Dave lose the hole?