Intended Line of Putt

[oldmaninblack]

An FC tried to claim a 2 stroke penalty because I was interfering with his putt by standing on his line.

I responded, correctly I'm sure, that there is no such rule, although there is a point of etiquette and if he mentioned that he was bothered I would have moved.

I don't think I was even in breach of etiquette since I was at least 20 feet away from him, behind him, not in his line of site. I was watching the line, since my putt was going to be on the same line and only a foot or so shorter.

I have always considered that "On the putting green, players should not stand on another player's line of putt" meant in the players line of sight.

Since I'm not bothered by anyone as long as they're standing still, I'm not sure how sensitive I need to be in this case.

[BC MIST]

Good News: No Penalty

Bad News: You are GUILTY of poor etiquette. If you watch the boys on TV, they generally stand in front of or behind the player putting, and they NEVER stand in the position that you described.

Like you, I am unconcerned where the person is standing as long as I know that he is not going to move, however, you should not be standing where you want to. Just stand away from his putting line extended backwards and them move to where you can see how the ball breaks, after he putts. Then, everybody wins.

[dbleber]

Bad News: You are GUILTY of poor etiquette. If you watch the boys on TV, they generally stand in front of or behind the player putting, and they NEVER stand in the position that you described.

I think he said he was standing behind him and at 20 feet. That seems to me as enough room away from your FC to allow him/her to make a putt and you to get a read wthout bothering anybody. Seems like you just played with a touchy player who probably takes themselves to seriously.
Denny

[BC MIST]

I think he said he was standing behind him and at 20 feet. That seems to me as enough room away from your FC to allow him/her to make a putt and you to get a read wthout bothering anybody. Seems like you just played with a touchy player who probably takes themselves to seriously.
Denny

There is an acceptable place to stand when someone else is putting and it is NOT 20' or whatever distance away from the player on his line. Rather, it is in front of or behind the player completely out of sight, and that includes the peripheral vision. This is just a given. I recognize that different players or groups of players establish what is acceptable etiquette for the way that they play so bending of this etquette "rule" does take place.

This has nothing to do with the player taking the game too seriously but just doing what is right. When you play in tournaments, particularly at a good amateur level, your etiquette better be perfect or you will very quickly be told. No-one is offended at this as virtually all tournament players do everything they can to stay out the way of others when it is there turn to play. This makes the tournament experience all that more enjoyable, however, unless you have had this kind of experience, it's difficult to understand. Frankly, once you get used to playing this way it makes it tough to play with others moving, talking and standing where they should not. It may sound snobbish to some, but it is just the right thing to do.

[dbleber]

There is an acceptable place to stand when someone else is putting and it is NOT 20' or whatever distance away from the player on his line. Rather, it is in front of or behind the player completely out of sight, and that includes the peripheral vision. This is just a given. I recognize that different players or groups of players establish what is acceptable etiquette for the way that they play so bending of this etquette "rule" does take place.

This has nothing to do with the player taking the game too seriously but just doing what is right. When you play in tournaments, particularly at a good amateur level, your etiquette better be perfect or you will very quickly be told. No-one is offended at this as virtually all tournament players do everything they can to stay out the way of others when it is there turn to play. This makes the tournament experience all that more enjoyable, however, unless you have had this kind of experience, it's difficult to understand. Frankly, once you get used to playing this way it makes it tough to play with others moving, talking and standing where they should not. It may sound snobbish to some, but it is just the right thing to do.

I agree that people should not move, talk and stand it your line of sight. I too find this to be very anoying and have asked people to move. But when he said that he was behind the player I assumed that he meant behind him at a distance of 20' and to the opposite side of the player where he would be out of FC's vision. Maybe I am wrong. If I'm not then I don't see the problem.
Denny

[Gary Hill]

One of the first Rules of Etiquette:

Players should not stand close to or directly behind the ball, or directly behind the hole, when a player is about to play.

[BC MIST]

I agree that people should not move, talk and stand it your line of sight. I too find this to be very anoying and have asked people to move. But when he said that he was behind the player I assumed that he meant behind him at a distance of 20' and to the opposite side of the player where he would be out of FC's vision. Maybe I am wrong. If I'm not then I don't see the problem.
Denny

I see your point. If he was literally behind him, then there is no problem. However, the first line of his post implies that he was on his line extended where he could watch the break of his putt. "An FC tried to claim a 2 stroke penalty because I was interfering with his putt by standing on his line."

This part seems a little contradictory I don't think I was even in breach of etiquette since I was at least 20 feet away from him, behind him, not in his line of site. By behind I think he means "down the line," not literally behind him, and he assumed that the golfer would look towards the hole and not in the opposite direction where he was standing.

What would be interesting is if the golfer putting asked the other player(his FC) to move, and he refused, could the FC be penalized under Rule 33-7 where it says "... a player is guilty of a serious breach of golf etiquette, it may impose a penalty of disqualification."

[Hank Hill]

If you were watching the final hole of the Masters last year. Phil Mickelson had a similar putt to his FC. He stood off to the side out of sight of the player and then moved in to see how the putt would break after his FC had struck the ball.

I find it is best to stay way out of the way and not move, cough, talk, etc. Then your FC can have no lame excuses if he/she misses.

[GarthM]

Some people have more acute peripheral vision than others. Even at 20 feet you would be in my line of sight for sure.

[golfngord]

If you are interfering with another player you are breaching etiquite,what you do should not unduly affect an opponent.Beat him with your golf game, not any other games.

[BC MIST]

If you are interfering with another player you are breaching etiquite,what you do should not unduly affect an opponent.Beat him with your golf game, not any other games.

Very true.

At the Prescott GC the 6th and 14th greens are near each other and their "Halfway" house is nearby. While playing in their Mens' Invitational one year here was a log jam on the 14th, a par 3 so I decided to go get a drink. After walking about 75 yards, a player who was putting on the 6th, about 175 yards away, saw me walking and stopped his routine. I saw him do this and stopped walking. He beckoned me to keep coming; I said that I would wait until he was done. I walked forward and stood behind a huge tree, perhaps 50 yards from where he was, where he could not see me. Dissatisfied with this, he called me to come forward again and was not happy until I was standing by the snack bar.

There is a difference between being close enough to be visibly interferring with a player's stroke, and being neurotic.

[broken27]

If you are interfering with another player you are breaching etiquite,what you do should not unduly affect an opponent.Beat him with your golf game, not any other games.

Standing somewhere you think is acceptable is hardly playing "other games".... My understanding of the situation presented by oldmaninblack is that he felt he was out of sight.

Etiquette works both ways too, and being a poor sport (and arbitrarily assessing two stroke penalties that don't seem to exist) instead of asking him to move is showing a lack of interpersonal (screw golf) etiquette. Don't complain about something you had complete control over! A simple "mind standing over there?" would have solved the problem and likely made the round more fun for everyone involved.

Dan

[Gary Hill]

(and arbitrarily assessing two stroke penalties that don't seem to exist)

PLAYERS CANNOT ASSESS, DEMAND,JUDGE, CHARGE, IMPOSE, LEVY, DEEM, SET, DESIGNATE, or GIVE PENALTIES !!!!

[broken27]

PLAYERS CANNOT ASSESS, DEMAND,JUDGE, CHARGE, IMPOSE, LEVY, DEEM, SET, DESIGNATE, or GIVE PENALTIES !!!!

I was paraphrasing the initial post.... Didn't mean to give you a stroke!!!

Dan

[Gary Hill]

Nah. It was mentioned a couple times in the thread. I thought it was about time to set the record straight once and for all.

[jvincent]

Somewhat off topic, from the original post, but perhaps worth clearing up.

Quoting from Gary:"PLAYERS CANNOT ASSESS, DEMAND,JUDGE, CHARGE, IMPOSE, LEVY, DEEM, SET, DESIGNATE, or GIVE PENALTIES !!!! "

Two scenarios:

1. I ground my club in a hazard and I record the appropriate penalty on my scorecard. Have I not just assessed myself a penalty?

2. I see my FC ground his club in a hazard and notify him that he should record the penalty on his scorecard. Assuming he does not, and I don't sign his card, does a rules / scoring official then get involved and determine whether the penalty strokes should be applied?

[treewood]

I am curious about this one.
Last year in a tournament, a FC and I were in the same fairway bunker, I proceeded to hit my ball, when he addressed his ball he grounded his club. After we finished the hole I mentioned his grounding and he insisted it did not and proceeded to accuse me of "cheating and throwing him off his game". He did not say another word to me for the remainder of the round. I reported it upon card signing and the ruling was in his favor???? I was quite displeased seeing he got away with cheating. What is the rule? Does there have to be more than one witness?

[Gary Hill]

I am curious about this one.
Last year in a tournament, a FC and I were in the same fairway bunker, I proceeded to hit my ball, when he addressed his ball he grounded his club. After we finished the hole I mentioned his grounding and he insisted it did not and proceeded to accuse me of "cheating and throwing him off his game". He did not say another word to me for the remainder of the round. I reported it upon card signing and the ruling was in his favor???? I was quite displeased seeing he got away with cheating. What is the rule? Does there have to be more than one witness?

It is kind of a "he said, she said" thing when there are only two players involved and they both have differing versions of events. All available evidence is gathered in making a ruling, however, in a case such as this, it would be hard to penalize the player on the evidence of a single person. If it were otherwise, it would open a pandora's box of problems such as: a player who loses a competition by one stroke saying: "Oh, by the way, I saw my fellow-competitor's ball move after address ten holes ago."

If you had stopped the player before the stroke and there was a visible mark in the sand where he grounded his club, you would have a stronger case. Also, if the player refused to stop his stroke or prevented you from leaving the club mark in the bunker, you would also have a strong case.

How is it that you were playing in a tournament with only you and this single fellow-competitor in the group?

[treewood]

There were four of us, but the other two were lucky enough to find fairway on the opposite side of the hole. I had tried to draw the ball but ended up with a "powerfade" to the right side, FC as well.

[Gary Hill]

The stituation may have been more easily resolved if you had said something before he made his stroke.

[treewood]

Hind-sight. Doesn't matter anymore. Mainly for future reference. Thanks.

[oldmaninblack]

This has turned out to be a more interesting thread than I thought when I started it

I play regularly with a close friend who ALWAYS grounds his club in the hazard. I have CASUALLY mentioned the rule to him and the reasons for it, but grounding the club makes him more comfortable in a difficult situation. He plays in the high 80's but is not serious about the rules. Doesn't bother me a bit. We aren't quite playing the same game, but we're out enjoying fresh air and good company.

On the other hand, if I accidently grounded my club in a hazard and didn't take the penalty, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night.