How well does P3 measure backspin/height?

[-Andrew-]

I see there are two rows of height sensors on the P3proswing unit; however, as one is "after" the ball, how accurately can this be measured if hitting down through the ball where club impact is before the 2nd set of sensors?

thanks
Andrew

[ZMax]

The P3 does a pretty good job of measuring club height or angle of attack, but last I checked, the data was not used to estimate backspin in the Premium courses. Check with P3pro and see if this is still the case.

[-Andrew-]

Thanks, I will.

[chasiv]

Angle of Attack is used as part of the calculation for backspin.

[-Andrew-]

Angle of Attack is used as part of the calculation for backspin.

Yes, I understand that - my question is not how it does it, but rather how well it is implemented.

[ZMax]

Angle of Attack is used as part of the calculation for backspin.

For the Premium courses?

[SFR]

Angle of Attack is used as part of the calculation for backspin.

Sorry but I have to jump on this one.

So what you are saying is that the more you hit down on the ball the more the back spin you will get. This would be great as this is how the interface should read this.

However.... in the past it did nothing to change the ball flight with hitting down or up on the ball nor give any more backspin.

2nd even if this is happening what good is it when spin no longer takes place on the greens? Your last update has removed this. What ever was done with the greens has let the balls land and bounce a bit and stop but it's not due to back spin settings.

There is no ball spin when your ball lands on the the greens, however they do back up if you land in the fairways.


Can you check this out?

[-Andrew-]

Also- I can't see how having only one height sensor before impact can correctly interpret a ball strike in which the club head strikes the unit before crossing the second height sensor... ?

(Even if all other aspects are working properly)

[SFR]

Sorry but I have to jump on this one.

So what you are saying is that the more you hit down on the ball the more the back spin you will get. This would be great as this is how the interface should read this.

However.... in the past it did nothing to change the ball flight with hitting down or up on the ball nor give any more backspin.

2nd even if this is happening what good is it when spin no longer takes place on the greens? Your last update has removed this. What ever was done with the greens has let the balls land and bounce a bit and stop but it's not due to back spin settings.

There is no ball spin when your ball lands on the the greens, however they do back up if you land in the fairways.


Can you check this out?

Bumping this to confirm.

[ZMax]

SFR, you still have the P3pro and the Premium courses right? So, you're just confirming that the AOA is not used in the backspin calculations?

And why in the world would they remove the effects of the backspin settings for the greens?

[SFR]

SFR, you still have the P3pro and the Premium courses right? So, you're just confirming that the AOA is not used in the backspin calculations?

And why in the world would they remove the effects of the backspin settings for the greens?

I do still have Prem Courses and used the pad a lot over the winter once I had my setup in my shop done. The new version that came out fixed the jump on the putting and came out with a LA area that you could set your LA for each club now which was nice. It also allowed you to play the (on line) stuff but again other things got messed up.

Well I had tested this in the past as well and it did not matter if you hit with a descending hit or ascending. The ball flight, carry and roll or spin seemed to be no different. And yes in the last version the back spin has no effect on the greens no matter what you crank it up to however if you chip one in the fairway it will back up like it used to. So as it is now even if the angle of attack did do somthing you would never see it on the greens.
I think this may have been an attempt to make the greens more receptive and allow chips to stop but there were other ways to achieve this and in fact I had. I think it was ver. 4.4 that was working fine except for the LA issue being related to swing speed in the wrong way and the putts jumped on that version, but again I had it working ok. I wish I would have kept a copy of that version to re try it on. The other thing the ball does now on the greens is skid (with a close follow view) you see the ball skid and not roll and thus I think has caused other issues now but others don't seem to see this but putts no longer are that consistent. The same putt ball speed can be yards appart now and not inches like back in a 4.2 ver. that I have to test with and the ball breaks way more on the slower putts now, which I think makes putting harder on some of the courses. Some are better than others. In fairness some say they like the putting now as is, but I think it causes short putts to almost be impossible with the slow putt mode reflective issues that can come up with some putter shapes as well a short wedge shots.

I would really like to hear that this may be in a new release or somthing that they have just been working on so that is why I wanted to bump this topic with hopes to find out.

[ZMax]

Ball skidding...that is sad. It should be easy to use AOA to estimate back spin.

[-Andrew-]

It should be easy to use AOA to estimate back spin.

As far as I figure, it can only tell angle of attack if the club head passes over both height sensors normally; for a chip shot, where the club passes only over the rear height sensor before hitting the surface/ball, I can't see how an accurate AOA could be calculated.

Moving forward I expect to see two height sensors before the ball and one after, at least.

[ZMax]

Actually, the location of the ball is fixed so you only need the rear height sensors for irons and shots not on the tee box. You only need the forward height sensors for drivers off the tee. It's not perfect but it's less than $1000. Your next option for AOA is a $10K radar system.

It's a mood point any way since it's not even used in the premium courses. Been like this for years...

[-Andrew-]

Actually, the location of the ball is fixed so you only need the rear height sensors for irons and shots not on the tee box. You only need the forward height sensors for drivers off the tee. It's not perfect but it's less than $1000. Your next option for AOA is a $10K radar system.

It's a mood point any way since it's not even used in the premium courses. Been like this for years...

The ball might be fixed, but that doesn't enable the single sensor to discern the club head path! It would have to make assumptions about the ball strike, I think. If the club head height were measured twice before impact, if the ball position is known, it could at least determine a momentary planar position and then extrapolate that into something more useful.

I think

[ZMax]

The ball might be fixed, but that doesn't enable the single sensor to discern the club head path! It would have to make assumptions about the ball strike, I think. If the club head height were measured twice before impact, if the ball position is known, it could at least determine a momentary planar position and then extrapolate that into something more useful.

I think

I should have said fixed tee location. And yes, assumptions are made for sure. Measuring twice before impact would be a lot better but they will never improve on their current cash cow.

For more accurate simulation systems, you have to move up to Protee or GC2.

[SFR]

Sorry but I have to jump on this one.

So what you are saying is that the more you hit down on the ball the more the back spin you will get. This would be great as this is how the interface should read this.

However.... in the past it did nothing to change the ball flight with hitting down or up on the ball nor give any more backspin.

2nd even if this is happening what good is it when spin no longer takes place on the greens? Your last update has removed this. What ever was done with the greens has let the balls land and bounce a bit and stop but it's not due to back spin settings.

There is no ball spin when your ball lands on the the greens, however they do back up if you land in the fairways.


Can you check this out?

In hopes of a reply to confirm this from P3pro.

[ZMax]

SFR,

Your box is full.

[goatbarn]

Hitting down or up on the ball does not necessarily change the spin. Spin loft changes the spin. You get more spin if you have a shallow angle of attack but maintain the true loft of the club at impact. I would provide a trackman newsletter if I wasn't posting on my phone.

[-Andrew-]

"Hitting down or up on the ball does not necessarily change the spin."

It's just semantics... I'm sure SFR understands that. It's a matter of how the unit determines and applies spin.

[SFR]

Hitting down or up on the ball does not necessarily change the spin. Spin loft changes the spin. You get more spin if you have a shallow angle of attack but maintain the true loft of the club at impact. I would provide a trackman newsletter if I wasn't posting on my phone.

My main point is that if P3pro says that they use the angle of attack to calculate ball spin (thus backing a ball up on the greens) if you hit a PW correct, what good is it when the interface no longer gives you back spin on the greens. Now it's only on fairways or anything but the greens.

My hope for a reply was to hear that they are fixing that issue and that it will work again soon.

[-Andrew-]

My main point is that if P3pro says that they use the angle of attack to calculate ball spin (thus backing a ball up on the greens) if you hit a PW correct, what good is it when the interface no longer gives you back spin on the greens. Now it's only on fairways or anything but the greens.

My hope for a reply was to hear that they are fixing that issue and that it will work again soon.

And... I would still like to know how it's possible (if it's possible) to measure angle of attack if there is only one height sensor before the ball strike...

[SFR]

Sorry but I have to jump on this one.

So what you are saying is that the more you hit down on the ball the more the back spin you will get. This would be great as this is how the interface should read this.

However.... in the past it did nothing to change the ball flight with hitting down or up on the ball nor give any more backspin.

2nd even if this is happening what good is it when spin no longer takes place on the greens? Your last update has removed this. What ever was done with the greens has let the balls land and bounce a bit and stop but it's not due to back spin settings.

There is no ball spin when your ball lands on the the greens, however they do back up if you land in the fairways.


Can you check this out?

Just to update a bit on this question... there has been an update and there have been improvements.

The backspin is still missing for balls landing on the green. It would have been nice to have that back, however the shots into a green do land soft and stop.
I won't have time to test things out in depth for a while but some early things are:
-- No need for dongles anymore so past issues of one dongle course overriding the other course dongle is gone. All courses will show up that are installed.
-- Fringe issue seems to be fixed and you can hit full shots off of it and not have a 50% penalty added.
-- Lots of visual changes in the placement of the info screens and you now can have the club data similar to the P3Pro screen if you wish.

Still did not check the wind to see if it works now, however I know how to correct it anyway in the config file.

Looks like they now offer all 92 (I think) Courses for $200. That is hard to beat however those of us that paid $1000 years ago and have not been able to use them without issues in the software may not have gotten as good of a deal. Even the 5 pack course was $200 last year.

With regards to Andrews question about accurate angle of attack with sensors in front of the ball and a set after. If you tee a ball you might have more accurate results as ones club would not hit the pad turf and thus get a fairly close. If you bounce the club off the pads surface and are not able to follow through down as you would on grass, you may not get the accurate read on the exit side sensor after the ball. I can see your point that if the two sets were in front of the ball impact spot, then you would get a more accurate club read without the issue of hitting the turf top and altering the club height after impact.