Ball in the bush

[The Saint]

I put my tee shot in the bush and then I hit a provisional on the fairway. I walk into the bush to look for the original ball and find it but it's unplayable. Can I get a drop say from point of entry and take a penalty stroke?

[AAA]

No. You may (under penalty of 1 stroke)
1) drop a ball within 2 clublengths of where the original ball lies not nearer the hole
2) go back as far as you like along a line from the hole, through the point where the ball lies
3) play again from where you made the last stroke.

[nokids]

haha, no


or yes, but then you get an 'X' on that hole.

[John]

Don't points 1 and 2 contradict themselves?

[AAA]

Don't points 1 and 2 contradict themselves?

Why do you think so? They are alternatives

[dmr]

For option 3, would you be allowed to use the provisional as that ball (so lying 3 in the fairway) or do you have to go back and hit another now that you know your ball is not lost.

[jvincent]

For option 3, would you be allowed to use the provisional as that ball (so lying 3 in the fairway) or do you have to go back and hit another now that you know your ball is not lost.

No, you can't use the provisional. It was hit in case the original was lost. Since it was not lost, the provisional must be abandoned.

This is a rule that I would like to see changed. The arguement against it is that you now give the player an "advantage" by choosing a ball in play, albeit a ball that is lying 3, instead of making hit another one in play.

[AAA]

jv

The only reason for a provisional is to save time. Once the time has been saved and the ball found the provisional has no further purpose in life. It is not intended to give you a guaranteed good position for an unplayable.

[jvincent]

Understood, but the same arguement could be used for the unplayable option, i.e. it saves time.

I understand the rationale for not allowing the provisional to be played in the situation described, I just don't agree with it.

[justsomeguy]

Understood, but the same arguement could be used for the unplayable option, i.e. it saves time.

I understand the rationale for not allowing the provisional to be played in the situation described, I just don't agree with it.

You have three options (as outlined by AAA). Do you think it is fair to already know the outcome of one of these three options BEFORE you make your choice?

[jvincent]

You have three options (as outlined by AAA). Do you think it is fair to already know the outcome of one of these three options BEFORE you make your choice?

Yes I do. If you choose the drop options you are only lying two. If you use the provisional you are lying three. Seems fair to me.

[AAA]

Understood, but the same arguement could be used for the unplayable option, i.e. it saves time.

I understand the rationale for not allowing the provisional to be played in the situation described, I just don't agree with it.

The unplayable has a completely different reason for being in existence. It is to allow you to continue in the game. It was introduced simply because of strokeplay. It is not to save time.

[jvincent]

I was referring to the provisional saving time.

[divotguy]

As I understand it, option "3" is available only if the ball is lost. Once the ball is found the provisional ball is out of play and teeing up another ball is no longer an option.

[Txxxxxxx]

No wonder they are looking into simplifying the rules of the game...

[jvincent]

As I understand it, option "3" is available only if the ball is lost. Once the ball is found the provisional ball is out of play and teeing up another ball is no longer an option.

Actually option 3 is always an option for either a lost ball or an unplayable.

[justsomeguy]

Yes I do. If you choose the drop options you are only lying two. If you use the provisional you are lying three. Seems fair to me.

You're in the bush. It is very likely that the drop options are going to leave you with a very risky, low-percentage shot to the green or you will only be chipping out to the fairway anyway. Or you could end up dropping behind a tree, or a rock, or in fescue -who knows?

If you already know that you can choose a perfect lie in the middle of the fairway with 100% certainty - at the mere cost of one extra stroke - that seems like a big advantage to me.

[AAA]

I was referring to the provisional saving time.

But

Understood, but the same arguement could be used for the unplayable option, i.e. it saves time.

[nokids]

You're in the bush. It is very likely that the drop options are going to leave you with a very risky, low-percentage shot to the green or you will only be chipping out to the fairway anyway. Or you could end up dropping behind a tree, or a rock, or in fescue -who knows?

If you already know that you can choose a perfect lie in the middle of the fairway with 100% certainty - at the mere cost of one extra stroke - that seems like a big advantage to me.

Yes you're right, but most of the times declaring a ball unplayable and using option 1) or 2) will result in the player being in a better position than lying 3 on the fairway. I don't have stats to back up this claim, but I play a lot of courses and there's always a way out of trouble unless your ball is in some really nasty jungle with no way to play it or drop it in line with the flag. I almost always want to find my ball because I think I can advance it past the point of where my provisional ball is lying.

I played an OVGA tourny this year and this guy hit his ball in the bush, then hit a provisional without declaring it a provisional. I found the guy's first ball in the bush and it was indeed unplayable. He wanted to hack it out. I told him he had to play the ball in the fairway since he didn't announce a provisional. He got ticked off. I totally understand why he was ticked off. Lying 3 on the fairway sucks.

So I'd agree with Jv about changing the rule.

[Chieflongtee]

If you ask me I would take the provisional any day. First it is no guarantee that it can be chipped out for sure after taking a drop. You may end up hitting 2 or more strokes just to get it out If you go for option 2 you might be robbed of distance(unless you're on a short par 3) If you opt for option 3 you may end up in the woods again

Hence Mickelson did not want anyone to find his ball:

Mickelson did not find his ball immediately, and he did not want to. He wanted to play his provisional ball, which was sitting in the middle of the fairway.
But to Mickelson's chagrin, a tournament marshal soon found his ball, also in an unplayable position. So instead of taking a penalty stroke and hitting his fourth shot from the fairway, Mickelson had to return to the tee box, just as Lickliter had, and hit his third shot from there.


http://www.nytimes.com/2001/02/12/sp...ple-bogey.html

[sharkshooter]

No. You may (under penalty of 1 stroke)
1) drop a ball within 2 clublengths of where the original ball lies not nearer the hole
2) go back as far as you like along a line from the hole, through the point where the ball lies
3) play again from where you made the last stroke.

If you saw a ball in the bush, thought it might be your ball but didn't identify it as yours (even if it was because you didn't want to), can you then play the provisional?

I know - goes against the spirit of the rules, but, even so.

[nokids]

If you saw a ball in the bush, thought it might be your ball but didn't identify it as yours (even if it was because you didn't want to), can you then play the provisional?

No, the player must inspect the ball that has been found. Decision 27-2c/2.

[Kilroy]

Don't look for it in places you wouldn't want to find it. I only look in playable areas. I don't care about the ball. I get 'used mint' balls by the gross so they are cheep enough to let them go.

[LobWedge]

Allowing a provisional ball to be used as a 4th option for an unplayable ball is a cop-out, and diminishes the challenge of the game.

The main premise of golf is to play the ball as it lies. A player who's ball may be found in an "unplayable" position has only himself to blame for putting it there. Rule 28 allows 3 different options for a ball that has been found and declared unplayable, and 1 for a ball which has not been found, but declared unplayable (stroke & distance).

A provisional ball is played for a ball may be lost, not for a ball that may be found. The language is precise for a reason. Contrary to popular belief, a provisional ball is not a "free swing". It's a contingency for a ball that may be lost outside of a water hazard, or out of bounds.

Regardless of whether a provisional ball saves time, or not, if the original ball is found within the "field of play" it must be dealt with. A player cannot declare a ball to be lost. Only his actions in relation to the original ball can render it lost. Such as, searching for and not finding it within 5 minutes, playing the provisional from a point where the original is likely to be or a point closer to the hole, playing from the previous spot, etc.

[AAA]

When applying the Rules, you follow them line by line. You don't read between them.

[nokids]

How about a rule change so that if a player hits his first shot in trouble, he can then hit a provisional in case #1 is lost, and he also hits a 3rd ball from the tee in case his first or 2nd ball is unplayable and he wants to proceed under option 3 of the unplayable rule. No need to go back to the tee. Instead of announcing "provisional", players would announce "in case my ball is unplayable"

[stevek]

Don't look for it in places you wouldn't want to find it. I only look in playable areas. I don't care about the ball. I get 'used mint' balls by the gross so they are cheep enough to let them go.

Don't look for it and play the provisional's second shot fast so your fellow competitor doesn't have time to find your first errant shot. (Assuming you are away) This happened to me at our club championship a few years ago. I didn't even attempt to look for my first as it was deep left with a further left draw but must have hit a tree to an unplayable lie which my f/c found just as I was about to hit my provisional. I ended up with an 11 on the hole to put me out of the competition - thank God it poured rain shortly after which suspended the round -and allowed me to withdraw with my soaked bag, body, and mind. (mmmmmm beer)

[AAA]

Don't look for it and play the provisional's second shot fast so your fellow competitor doesn't have time to find your first errant shot. (Assuming you are away)

This may not work as you think. You have to have played your provisional from a point nearer the hole than where your original may be before your original becomes lost.
It may need two quick sprints.

[justsomeguy]

How about a rule change so that if a player hits his first shot in trouble, he can then hit a provisional in case #1 is lost, and he also hits a 3rd ball from the tee in case his first or 2nd ball is unplayable and he wants to proceed under option 3 of the unplayable rule. No need to go back to the tee. Instead of announcing "provisional", players would announce "in case my ball is unplayable"

How does that change anything? You still know what's behind Door #3 before you make your choice.

The reason why a provisional is even possible is that there are NO options available with a ball that is lost or OB. You have no choice but to replay from the previous spot (i.e., stroke + distance). So why not save time and hit it while you're standing on the tee box.

[LobWedge]

How does that change anything? You still know what's behind Door #3 before you make your choice.

The reason why a provisional is even possible is that there are NO options available with a ball that is lost or OB. You have no choice but to replay from the previous spot (i.e., stroke + distance). So why not save time and hit it while you're standing on the tee box.

I have a feeling he was yanking the chain