Three MUSTS in a Good Golf Swing

[BC MIST]

Rather than veer off topic from the previous thread on what to look for in a pro, starting a new one.

From jvincent
1. The clubhead need to be in the correct position WRT to the ball at impact.
2. The path of the clubhead in the moving in the correct direction wrt to the ball at impact. Note that these can be different depending on the shot you are trying to accomplish and do not necessarily imply that you hit the ball first or squarely. I guess if you seperate angle of attack from path that would become three things.

None of these ideas are mine so if there are any disagreements with the principles, attack them, not me.

1. A flat left/lead wrist.
If you get "GOLF" magazine, March edition, there are two beautiful pictures which illustrate this principle. Page 69 Charles Howell III and page 118 Hank Kuehne. The one of Kuehne is more outstanding because his hands are about hip high in the follow through and his left wrist is still flat and his right is still flexed. Kuehne is the "longest" hitter on Tour and yet he maintains this flat lead wrist position which is contrary to something that a couple of other forum members erroneously believe, and that is that for extra power the forearms should be rotated. The only rotation here is what naturally occurs from waist high per and post impact. I strongly believe that the longer you can keep the right wrist flexed backwards, the harder you can swing with control, and the farther and straighter you can hit it. Conscious forearm rotation causes frequent disasters.

2. A straight plane line
The PLANE of a golf swing is the angle of the club shaft at address. Obviously the club head is on the target line so being ON PLANE simply means whichever end of the club is nearest to the ground MUST also point at the base of the plane, or target line extended, in both directions BTW, from horizon to horizon. This is where Leadbetter, MacLean and the boys, have it wrong as they believe that its OK for the shaft to be parallel to the address, shaft axis plane. Another shot of Charles Howell III on page 68, the inset photo, shows the simple checkpoint that confirms that he is ON PLANE. The shaft coincides with the right forearm.

3. A lagging club head.
All this means is the the hands are always ahead of the club head through impact. Again, page 69 of "GOLF" shows CHIII in an incredible position. The back of his left hand is about 3" ahead of the ball, while the club head is about 6" from making contact with the ball. A golfer does not have to create additional lag at the start of the downswing, as many pros do, Sergio being a great example. They just have to hold the angle a little longer and the hands will be ahead of the ball at impact.



Just to add a little fuel to the golf swing myths file:
(1) The sole purpose of the BODY in the golf swing is to provide BALANCE, not power.

(2) The ARMS provide the SPEED/POWER.

(3) The hands CONTROL the club face, therefore, ball DIRECTION.
If anybody cares.

If I knew 40 years ago what I think know now, I probably wouldn't be any better.

[jvincent]

This should be a good discussion.

Reading your three points, I think I my points were more "effect" than cause.

No disagreement from me on point 2. I've always had problems when I try to swing on a more upright plane. I gave up a couple of years ago and hti the ball much more consistently on my flatter plane.

I think most people will also agree about point 3.

I need to think about point 1.

[beatnik58]

Point 3 eludes me but I'm going to keep trying. Any tips on how to get the hang of this?

[jvincent]

Point 3 eludes me but I'm going to keep trying. Any tips on how to get the hang of this?

This is the one that separates the men from the boys as it were.

The longer you can hold the wrist angle, the faster the club is going after release. This is because you are fully loading the shaft before release and when it unloads that late in the swing, it is really moving.

This is why when you look at the pros, it doesn't usually look like they are swinging that hard but the ball goes like stink.

As to how to get the hang of it......

[byerxa]

I am in the process of finally getting the "3 musts" into my swing after years of being an OTT swinger. For me, to get the lag, I must really focus on NOT releasing the club at all - it will do so on its own on the follow through. I actually started getting it when I was trying to teach myself Pelz's "dead hands" distance wedge swing for under 100 yd shots. Kind of stumbled on the feeling by accident but managed to get enough wattage to the old lightbulb to figure it out.

For me to hit the ball well the following must happen:
1. Start downswing/transition with lower body, i.e., weight shift to lead foot
2. Keep my balance
3. Literally feel like I am pulling the club through the ball while holding wrist angle as long as I can, on plane as BC MIST mentions
4. Keep my balance
and
5. Keep my balance

I think one of the bigger myths (at least for a recovering OTT swinger like me) is the wrist "roll" or release preached by many. I think it promotes hitting "at" the ball when really the sensation is more of pulling down "through" the ball. When I swing "correctly" there is absolutely no effort to "release". However, I was actually a draw hitter with an OTT swing, i.e., the draw was manufactured by an aggressive wrist roll/release, so my battle is to quell it and my sensations are probably quite exagerated.

BTW, jvincent, point 1 is mandatory to keep the club head behind the hands. Golf clubs are made to be literally "pulled" down through the ball. What is more stable, something being pushed or pulled?

[beatnik58]

This is the one that separates the men from the boys as it were.

The longer you can hold the wrist angle, the faster the club is going after release. This is because you are fully loading the shaft before release and when it unloads that late in the swing, it is really moving.

This is why when you look at the pros, it doesn't usually look like they are swinging that hard but the ball goes like stink.

As to how to get the hang of it......

Precisely! Any drills, exercises, methods that anyone know about? I have made huge improvements in setup, swingplane etc.. Now I need to get the hang of a lagging club head.

[BC MIST]

No disagreement from me on point 2. I've always had problems when I try to swing on a more upright plane. I gave up a couple of years ago and hti the ball much more consistently on my flatter plane.

Golfers who have a top of the backswing position where the left arm is above being parallel to the shoulder line/plane, (look at second picture here) http://www.golfbetterproductions.com/the-swing.asp , have to move their lower bodies farther forward and more "out of the way," than those who have flatter swings. On the recent Golf Academy Live programme, Johnny Miller made reference to this when talking about his own, upright swing.

Over the years there have been many great golfers who have all flattened their swings from their original upright ones, examples of which are Jack Nicklaus, Greg Norman, Nick Faldo, and more recently, Tiger Woods. There were a few shots of Tiger yesterday at Bay Hill where it appeared that his arms at the top were just barely above the shoulder line, which hopefully will lead to more consistent driving. Perhaps when he can syncronize or marry his lower body motion with his upper body, he will get the results he wants.

[BC MIST]

On Friday I stole a drill from John Dunnigan and asked three Over The Top swingers to try something. I videotaped their before and after swings and the results were amazing.

The shots below represent the old start of the downswing and the second is the new. BTW: the new shot that you see was their first swing trying this drill.

[jbrace]

I think one of the bigger myths (at least for a recovering OTT swinger like me) is the wrist "roll" or release preached by many. I think it promotes hitting "at" the ball when really the sensation is more of pulling down "through" the ball. When I swing "correctly" there is absolutely no effort to "release". However, I was actually a draw hitter with an OTT swing, i.e., the draw was manufactured by an aggressive wrist roll/release, so my battle is to quell it and my sensations are probably quite exagerated.

It's interesting that release of the club with a "wrist roll" is being talked about because that is exactly what I'm working on with my coach right now. I'm having a very hard time with it though. :dissappro I do not have a problem with getting good release through impact. I have pretty good lag, and can get the club whipping through impact. But I have alot of trouble finishing the release post-impact. I have a tendancy to release the clubhead at the ball (i.e. unhinge my wrists through impact) and then simply keep the shaft on the same line as my arms through most of the follow through. My coach is preaching letting the club "rollover" after impact. It feels really unnatural, and it feels like it is really flattening my follow through, like the club is wrapping around me instead of extending up and over my shoulder.
A question for the swing guru's: How much, as a percentage, is the lead hand responsible for releasing the club? I'm a lefty and, like many of us, grew up playing hockey (I shoot left-handed in hockey too). I think because of this, I tend to want to release the club with my left (back) hand, similar to a slapshot. On tape, I can really see my left hand getting active through impact because I feel like that's where the power should come from. Again, my coach is trying to get me out of that; instead releasing, and then "rolling" the club with my right hand. This goes hand in hand (No pun intended) with finishing my release. So, is he right that my left hand should hardly be doing anything through impact?

[PowerFade]

On Friday I stole a drill from John Dunnigan...

BC, can you explain the drill, please! Which one is it? If it is the pump drill I've tried that following Leslie King and, nope, I don't get it--I always get "stuck" when I take it to the full swing. I think I'm more of a feel player to begin with, if I feel it I can better understand the mechanics of it. The other way around is (strangely enough) difficult for me. Last year I worked on staying on plane and my swing has improved a great deal. Keeping my back to the target a bit longer and especially making the back of my left hand face the sky on the backswing have helped a great deal. But now and then I don't get back down into the slot and hit short iron pulls and driver pull-hooks. I'd like to know what I'm doing so I can practice it, and be able to do something on the course to fix the problem when it pops up.

Two things from the link you posted above:

"Start Down - Pushing the club down toward the plane. - Because the backswing sends the club automatically above plane, we actively do something to return the club to the plane. Shifting the weight won't do it; rotating the hips can't possibly do it; but pushing the club downward using your arms and hands can do it quite easily once you learn how. Yes, the body does move in the swing, but unless you're a 2 handicap or lower, you are best to simply let the body follow the pushing motion rather than make active use of you hips."

and,

"The Plane Truth -

1. Address: Starting out with both the club shaft and my hands on-plane (Plane A black).
2. Half Way Back: Club shaft, hands and right forearm are on-plane.
3. At the Top: Club shaft, hands and right forearm have shifted to a more vertical, over-the-top of the original, plane (Plane B, white line). Only the right elbow remains on-plane. Herein lies the difficulty with the golf swing: getting back down to the original plane. Whatever you do to start the downswing must return the club to the original plane.
4. Start Down: Moving the hands and club shaft back toward the plane--not toward the ball, is the easiest way to get the club back on plane.
5. Half Way Down: Club shaft, hands and right forearm are once again on-plane. It's easy from here."

How to do this (and know what I'm doing?) is the problem. Thanks for you help.

[mberube]

2. A straight plane line
The PLANE of a golf swing is the angle of the club shaft at address. Obviously the club head is on the target line so being ON PLANE simply means whichever end of the club is nearest to the ground MUST also point at the base of the plane, or target line extended, in both directions BTW, from horizon to horizon. This is where Leadbetter, MacLean and the boys, have it wrong as they believe that its OK for the shaft to be parallel to the address, shaft axis plane. Another shot of Charles Howell III on page 68, the inset photo, shows the simple checkpoint that confirms that he is ON PLANE. The shaft coincides with the right forearm.

This is a great example of a perfect swing plane in the slot on the downswing. I think Leadbetter did a pretty good job with this kid.



Here is the link to the full story.
http://www.golfonline.com/golfonline...030781,00.html

[BC MIST]

This is a great example of a perfect swing plane in the slot on the downswing. I think Leadbetter did a pretty good job with this kid.



Here is the link to the full story.
http://www.golfonline.com/golfonline...030781,00.html

Maybe CHIII learned the correct move inspite of DL, instead of because of him.

Knowing that CHIII was a student of DL, I found it very ironic that he hits this beautiful position on his downswing, but at the same time in the Golf Digest magazine, DL suggests that the club shaft should be parallel to the shaft axis plane, instead of on it as CHIII is. (Page 144 April) In fact, CHIII is slightly "under" the SAP, which would encourage a pure draw ball flight.

Also, in looking at other pictures of Nick Price and Nick Faldo, they also pass through this same ideal position, so is it possible that what DL says he wants and what he actually has them do, are a little different? Even if true, you can see why the two Nicks were known for their straight ball flight, which helped them win a major or two.

I just took a closer look at the picture I mentioned above and realize that the umbrella that DL uses as a line representing the SAP, is stuck in the ground at the end of grip instead of at the club head. If the umbrella was in the ground by the club head, this line on the page would be in a different position where what he wants CHIII to do, is consistent with or will coincide with the umbrella, where the SAP actually is. This "new" position, which differs from what he once taught, now agrees with many of the more "scientific" type instructors. To Mr. DL, I apologize. Maybe now he will reduce my hourly lesson fee from $2000/h to $1500.

[BC MIST]

It's interesting that release of the club with a "wrist roll" is being talked about because that is exactly what I'm working on with my coach right now. I'm having a very hard time with it though. :dissappro I do not have a problem with getting good release through impact. I have pretty good lag, and can get the club whipping through impact. But I have alot of trouble finishing the release post-impact. I have a tendancy to release the clubhead at the ball (i.e. unhinge my wrists through impact) and then simply keep the shaft on the same line as my arms through most of the follow through. My coach is preaching letting the club "rollover" after impact. It feels really unnatural, and it feels like it is really flattening my follow through, like the club is wrapping around me instead of extending up and over my shoulder.
A question for the swing guru's: How much, as a percentage, is the lead hand responsible for releasing the club? I'm a lefty and, like many of us, grew up playing hockey (I shoot left-handed in hockey too). I think because of this, I tend to want to release the club with my left (back) hand, similar to a slapshot. On tape, I can really see my left hand getting active through impact because I feel like that's where the power should come from. Again, my coach is trying to get me out of that; instead releasing, and then "rolling" the club with my right hand. This goes hand in hand (No pun intended) with finishing my release. So, is he right that my left hand should hardly be doing anything through impact?

I find your post fascinating particularly because you use the term "wrist roll" versus forearm rotation. If possible, would you elaborate on what rcoach actually wants you to do when you "wrist roll?"

If you forearm rotate, the back of your lower hand will become flat or even bend forwards, at impact. When this occurs, a hook usually results, although it also depends on the path of the club head. It is possible to "wrist roll," and still have the back of the lower hand stay flexed backwards. It is my understanding that Graham Gunn teaches this as he is apparently an advocate of the method taught my Mark Evershed. There is obviously rotation through impact, and it is frequently explained that the club face is toe up when the club shaft is horiziontal in the downswing to toe up when the club shaft is horizontal in the through swing. Any additional rotation usually causes you to play a provisional.

Another interesting checkpoint is this: Hold your finish position for a second and then without changing the wrist angles, drop your arms/hands down to about your waist. If the shaft of the club is on an angle from bottom left(hands) to top right(club head)(right handers only) your hands have not excessively rotated.

There are varying opinions about "release" in the golf swing. From what I have read and from my experience, if you consciously release, results are inconsistent. If you consciously try not to release, results are superb. If you swing down on the proper plane, the release happens subconsciously and frankly, it happens too fast for us to consciously control. While it may appear on video that your hands are very active, the truth may be that if you have sufficient lag, that you may subconsciously be holding off the release until the last split second, and this is great if you do. I find that my longest and straightest shots occur when I have the feeling of no release.

I would not worry about what the top hand is doing, but I would try to keep the bottom wrist flexed through impact, which while an almost impossible task, is better than letting it flatten.

[jbrace]

Thanks BC Mist. Excellent insight as usual. What I mean by "wrist roll" is turning the club, after impact, by turning my hands as if I'm twisting a door knob. So that through the follow through, I start to see the top of my bottom hand, and by the time my forearms are horizontal, the butt end of the shaft points down and towards the target line, instead of up and towards my torso. The way my coach explained it to me, this position means that the club remains on plane throughout the entire swing (not just the backswing through to impact). Whereas I am really "high" and extended. A drill I'm doing to get the proper feeling is to grip the club normally with my top hand, but only with the thumb and index finger of my bottom hand. Then I take slow half swings to get the feeling of releasing with my top hand. This gets the shaft horizontal early (in relation to my swing right now anyways). If you look at CHIII in the attachment, his arms are a little past horizontal, but you can see that his club has "fully released" and the butt of his grip is pointed down and at the target line (or slightly inside). When I am in this position, the club is still quite low and it is only after I come up to my finish that my hands come in close to my head and the club comes to rest behind my neck. I'm having a hard time getting into the position that the pros get into in the followthrough. That being said, when the club is horizontal in the follow through, the toe is pointed up. It's just that it arrives at horizontal late. Phew, that's hard to explain.

[byerxa]

Since everyone "feels" their golf swing differently, let me qualify what I have been blabbing about regarding my transition from an OTT swing to a more on plane swing. With an OTT swing, I was actually a draw hitter. I did it because I (used to, at least) have relatively strong wrists (ex-motocrosser) and used excessive wrist action to catch the club head up to the out-in plane. I simply was aiming right to get proper direction. On good days I could hit the ball OK, but on off days (the much more commons ones) I'd either have the "fall back" pull-slices, or duck hooks. I call it walking the tightrope of the handsy swing. So ingrained was the "release" (roll, whatever) my short game was never any good. As I aged I was getting slower at catching up hence exagerated the release more, to the point where even putting was screwed because of it. I've had to go to a left hand low putting grip to quell it in my putting.

Subsequently, I am now working on delaying the release as much as possible with proper lag. Especially on pitches, etc., it feels like my wrists are almost "folding back" while in reality they are just staying properly lagged. I am basically undoing years of severe compensation I did for the improper swing plane. Of course, these are the demons I fight on the course. The story is different for every golfer. At the end of the day the 3 truths are intrinsic to consistent ball striking.

[Synchro]

1. A flat left/lead wrist.

2. A straight plane line

3. A lagging club head.

hi BC MIST and others,

sorry if this might sound a little dumb as i just started playing before the winter came...

i understand the concept you are trying to get across in this post and also in other similar discussions, but unlike the upswing, the downswing kind of happens on its own.

how is it possible to dial in so many detailed manipulation of hands and the club while everything is happening so fast? i am a relatively slow-rythm swinger but i still find it extremely difficult to acheive many of the things talked about here and shown in the pictures. i 'think' i am not alone to find out that the more i try to copy the image or the concept, the more screwed up and unatural the downswing becomes...

[BC MIST]

Thanks BC Mist. Excellent insight as usual. What I mean by "wrist roll" is turning the club, after impact, by turning my hands as if I'm twisting a door knob. So that through the follow through, I start to see the top of my bottom hand, and by the time my forearms are horizontal, the butt end of the shaft points down and towards the target line, instead of up and towards my torso. The way my coach explained it to me, this position means that the club remains on plane throughout the entire swing (not just the backswing through to impact). Whereas I am really "high" and extended. A drill I'm doing to get the proper feeling is to grip the club normally with my top hand, but only with the thumb and index finger of my bottom hand. Then I take slow half swings to get the feeling of releasing with my top hand. This gets the shaft horizontal early (in relation to my swing right now anyways). If you look at CHIII in the attachment, his arms are a little past horizontal, but you can see that his club has "fully released" and the butt of his grip is pointed down and at the target line (or slightly inside). When I am in this position, the club is still quite low and it is only after I come up to my finish that my hands come in close to my head and the club comes to rest behind my neck. I'm having a hard time getting into the position that the pros get into in the followthrough. That being said, when the club is horizontal in the follow through, the toe is pointed up. It's just that it arrives at horizontal late. Phew, that's hard to explain.

Nope. Your explanation is very good. If your swing is on the plane that we talked about above, both before and after impact, then your ball striking has to be pretty consistent. The scary thing to me is that any attempt to consciously release the club would mean inconsistent results to the average golfer. If, however, you are practicing a release to cure a previous fault, and then just swing when you play without consciously doing it, then you will likely play just fine. I have been practicing a "non-release" motion coming through and progress is apparent. I use both the Tac Tic and Evershed's Power Click device, and with the former I can occasionally finish the swing without it unclicking. As I have always been a "hooker" when I miss, this motion works well for me. However, if the golfer has always been a slicer, then a different kind of release move has to be learned.

As I look at golfers with a "high" finish, or with the hands more over the right shoulder, I know that there are compensations somewhere. When the hands go over the left shoulder, whether high or not, I believe that the swing remains ON PLANE. When I see the hands come around the body on the through swing to finish quite low, like Justin Leonard does, I see a very straight hitter. In reality though, the truth is in the flight of the ball and that is the only true factor that counts.

[BC MIST]

BC, can you explain the drill, please!
Two things from the link you posted above:
"Start Down -
"The Plane Truth -

Most golfers from the top move their hands OUT and DOWN to the ball, whereas a motion of BACK first followed by OUT and DOWN will produce the desired inside path.The drill from Dunnigan's video that seemed to help the golfers I mentioned above is quite simple. I placed a piece of 2" masking tape on a sharp angle coming into the ball. Where the ball would be, or is, I placed a large blue dot. About 10" from the "ball" I placed another blue dot. I simply asked the player to address the "ball" but to look at the second blue dot when they swung the club. Immediately, they swing the club back, down and out to the ball.

After doing this without a ball, try a couple with a ball, but don't look at the ball. Just look at the first dot. I would suggest making 4 practice swings looking at the second dot, and then four looking at the first dot(ball). When comfortable, starting using a real ball, although expect contact to be poor at first. The sole purpose of the exercise to to stop the OTT motion.

The angle of the masking tape is a bit exaggerated in the pictures, however, sometimes it is better to go to extremes and then work back to something closer to the real path. When I do this I no longer use the masking tape, I just take a golf ball that I have sawed in two, (not a ProV1) and place it on the inside path. Using my periferal vision, I just try to swing over it coming through.

If practicing the "back" motion seperately, I would suggest taking a backswing in front of a long mirror, and stop, and then very very slowly, push your arms away from your right shoulder, watching the hands come vertically downward, until the right elbow touches the right hip. Remember, all of these are drills, and should not be though about when you play.

[BC MIST]

Since everyone "feels" their golf swing differently, let me qualify what I have been blabbing about regarding my transition from an OTT swing to a more on plane swing. With an OTT swing, I was actually a draw hitter. I did it because I (used to, at least) have relatively strong wrists (ex-motocrosser) and used excessive wrist action to catch the club head up to the out-in plane. I simply was aiming right to get proper direction. On good days I could hit the ball OK, but on off days (the much more commons ones) I'd either have the "fall back" pull-slices, or duck hooks. I call it walking the tightrope of the handsy swing. So ingrained was the "release" (roll, whatever) my short game was never any good. As I aged I was getting slower at catching up hence exagerated the release more, to the point where even putting was screwed because of it. I've had to go to a left hand low putting grip to quell it in my putting.

Subsequently, I am now working on delaying the release as much as possible with proper lag. Especially on pitches, etc., it feels like my wrists are almost "folding back" while in reality they are just staying properly lagged. I am basically undoing years of severe compensation I did for the improper swing plane. Of course, these are the demons I fight on the course. The story is different for every golfer. At the end of the day the 3 truths are intrinsic to consistent ball striking.

It certainly sounds like you are on the right track now. The hardest thing to accomplish in golf is undoing the faults we got ourselves into at a younger age, however, it can be done in time and with "perfect' practice.

And what is wrong with a left hand low putting stroke?

[BC MIST]

hi BC MIST and others,

sorry if this might sound a little dumb as i just started playing before the winter came...
i understand the concept you are trying to get across in this post and also in other similar discussions, but unlike the upswing, the downswing kind of happens on its own.
how is it possible to dial in so many detailed manipulation of hands and the club while everything is happening so fast? i am a relatively slow-rythm swinger but i still find it extremely difficult to acheive many of the things talked about here and shown in the pictures. i 'think' i am not alone to find out that the more i try to copy the image or the concept, the more screwed up and unatural the downswing becomes...

Your question is not dumb. With a lot of time spent practicing, the ideal is to have the downswing happen "on its own," as you suggested, however, the truth is that the downswing is learned. Initially, most golfers learn to move their arms out, over the top, and then spend months/years/forever, trying to correct this faulty move.

One point that I have been trying to make is to learn not to manipulate the hands through impact, while others have worked on learning to release the club. To each his own. Learning to move the club correctly both back and down, is best done in slow motion and static positions and then increase the speed a little and then go to the ball. When you are first learning a golf swing, the greatest wrecker of what you are trying to accomplish is the ball. We all have the impulse to hit it hard, and often poor mechanics result because of this.

Even if you are a beginner, trying to get an image or feel of what you need to accomplish will help you accomplish it. The picture posted by mberube of CHIII in the on plane position is a wonderful image and something you can check in a mirror or through the use of video. As mentioned above we all feel the swing differently, so if you can get someone to place you in the ideal position so you can learn the feel of it, you will progress faster. That is why taking lessons at first is so important.

The thrill of golf is in just hitting the ball. But spending a lot of time performing your swing in slow motion until it becomes subconscious, will again, accelerate your progress. I agree with you that we can get too bottled up in mechanics, particularly if we think of mechanics when we play on the course. Mechanics are essential, and you should continue to work on them, but confine mechanical thinking to the practice area.

[jbrace]

The scary thing to me is that any attempt to consciously release the club would mean inconsistent results to the average golfer.

Exactly. That's what is happening with me right now. I am making a more conscious release, specifically post-impact. I am striking the ball solidly, but with a mixture of fades, draws, and straight shots. A variance of about 20 yards (10 each left and right of the target) with a 7 iron. This is because I don't have the timing down yet and/or I'm still releasing mostly with my bottom hand. Which brings me to my original question: How much, percentage wise, is the bottom hand supposed to release the club in relation to the top hand? Do I really need to worry that I'm releasing the club mostly with my bottom hand? As long as my hands remain in front of the ball (and they are) and I'm not "flipping" it, I don't see where it matters...

When I see the hands come around the body on the through swing to finish quite low, like Justin Leonard does, I see a very straight hitter.

It's funny you mention Justin Leonard because that's exactly who I told my swing coach I feel like when I do what he's telling me to do. The club feels really flat in the follow through and my hands seem to come in close to my body low and early so it "feels" like I have no extension (i.e. power)

[byerxa]

BC MIST:

And what is wrong with a left hand low putting stroke?

I sure am not saying that I've had to "deviate" to a left hand low putting grip to overcome some deficiency. In fact, I think it is a better grip because it a) helps promote a pulling stroke instead of a pushing stroke and b) it promotes a full follow through toward target without making the torso want to tend to move. I was just stubborn in not going to the grip until I really analyzed my putting woes. Now my misses are almost always because of read, i.e., the putt goes where I aim.

BTW: My swing is really coming around and at times I am amazed at how well I can hit it with such ease. However, on the course, I go into the dumper for a hole or so as I revert to bad habits almost subconciously. Do you have any tips on working on the mental aspect of training the brain to stop this? I agree with you that there is not muscle memory, but only what you tell your muscles to do. I just seem to get into a bad state once in a while where I revert to old habits when I know better.

[mberube]

BTW: My swing is really coming around and at times I am amazed at how well I can hit it with such ease. However, on the course, I go into the dumper for a hole or so as I revert to bad habits almost subconciously. Do you have any tips on working on the mental aspect of training the brain to stop this? I agree with you that there is not muscle memory, but only what you tell your muscles to do. I just seem to get into a bad state once in a while where I revert to old habits when I know better.

A solid routine is the best way to keep out those bad habits. Once you get that routine set, practice it on the range before every shot. You must also practice, practice and practice again. If it takes over a year for a guy like Tiger to change something in his swing imagine how much it takes us. He has the chance to practise countless hours every week and we practice an hour here and there and hope that the changes will come soon. It doesn’t work that way.

We also have tendencies to change what we are practicing making it very difficult to learn the proper swing.

[Christian]

I have been working on this move fairly diligently this off season with varied success because it is hard to get a feel for it when hitting into a net a few feet away or simply swinging at home. Video sure helps.

I have been in Florida for a week and a half and the practice really has made a huge difference. BTW, this is a move similar to what is taught by Warren Grant at the Thunderbird.

For me (and it may be different for others), I have three keys to success:

The first - I do a half back swing similar to Mike Weir with the back of my left hand basically pointed at the sky and my right elbow tucked to my right side. When I actually perform the backswing, I remember this feeling and I am in the proper position (plane) to initiate the downswing.

The second - The downswing is initiated by straigthening the right elbow so that the club goes down and back first (this feels like the club is well behind me). It is important to keep the right elbow as close to the right hip as possible.

The third - and this is the most difficult for me - maintaining the bend of the right hand through impact. I have a tendency of flipping it which causes pulls, pushes and hooks.

When this is done properly, it feels like it is slow motion because the body is doing very little work (basically providing anchoring and support to the swing). Club head speed is generated from the acceleration achieved by staightening the right elbow and keeping it close to the right hip. The other feeling you get is one of almost "trapping" the ball at impact. The balls explodes off the clubface and you cannot believe the distance and accuracy as you watch it take flight.

A useful drill that I use is the same as BC MIST's except instead of balls and tape, I use two strategically placed water bottles (one two inches away from the ball and the other about a foot behind and approx 30 degrees closer to my body). If you don"t hit the bottles then you have the proper angle to the downswing.

I hope this is of some help to someone. Cheers. Christian

[BC MIST]

BTW: My swing is really coming around and at times I am amazed at how well I can hit it with such ease. However, on the course, I go into the dumper for a hole or so as I revert to bad habits almost subconciously. Do you have any tips on working on the mental aspect of training the brain to stop this? I agree with you that there is not muscle memory, but only what you tell your muscles to do. I just seem to get into a bad state once in a while where I revert to old habits when I know better.

By asking the above question you are opening up a topic about which I have learned a lot in the last year and has helped me immensely on the course both at my home course and in tournaments. Perhaps more importantly, I have unlearned a lot of what I have read before and that includes all the Bob Rotella stuff.

In my signature below I refer to the "Clear Key" approach, and as relatively simple as it is, the manner in which it has altered my thinking when I play, is huge. But again, this is actually off topic so when I get time, I will put a few thoughts down and see what others may think. You may be sorry as it is obvious that I write too much.

My first post on this topic is here http://forum.ottawagolf.com/showthre...ighlight=clear
and if I made no other, I will elaborate sometime soon.

[dlaville]

None of these ideas are mine so if there are any disagreements with the principles, attack them, not me.

They're Homer Kelley's from The Golfing Machine.

[PowerFade]

The angle of the masking tape is a bit exaggerated in the pictures, however, sometimes it is better to go to extremes and then work back to something closer to the real path. When I do this I no longer use the masking tape, I just take a golf ball that I have sawed in two, (not a ProV1) and place it on the inside path. Using my periferal vision, I just try to swing over it coming through.

BC, thanks for your response. For some reason I haven't seen it until today! Your drill looks good and I'd like to try it but the pics are garbled. Can you please upload them again so they work? Thank you very much!

[mberube]

Most golfers from the top move their hands OUT and DOWN to the ball, whereas a motion of BACK first followed by OUT and DOWN will produce the desired inside path.The drill from Dunnigan's video that seemed to help the golfers I mentioned above is quite simple. I placed a piece of 2" masking tape on a sharp angle coming into the ball. Where the ball would be, or is, I placed a large blue dot. About 10" from the "ball" I placed another blue dot. I simply asked the player to address the "ball" but to look at the second blue dot when they swung the club. Immediately, they swing the club back, down and out to the ball.

After doing this without a ball, try a couple with a ball, but don't look at the ball. Just look at the first dot. I would suggest making 4 practice swings looking at the second dot, and then four looking at the first dot(ball). When comfortable, starting using a real ball, although expect contact to be poor at first. The sole purpose of the exercise to to stop the OTT motion.

BC, in this drill, is your tape line at 45 degrees of your target line or less?

[eye2's]

"It is my understanding that Graham Gunn teaches this as he is apparently an advocate of the method taught my Mark Evershed. There is obviously rotation through impact, and it is frequently explained that the club face is toe up when the club shaft is horiziontal in the downswing to toe up when the club shaft is horizontal in the through swing. Any additional rotation usually causes you to play a provisional."

I find this a very interesting and intelligent discussion. I am basically a "bogey" golfer who has taken a handful of lessons from Graham Gunn. Basically he wanted me to start my wrist roll at the start of the downswing with the theory that you cannot start this wrist roll too soon. Anyway, I never seemed to catch on to the theory and never really improved. I figured he knew what he was talking about and that I was too uncoordinated to ever learn so I gave up on the lessons and just play for fun, never hoping to get any better.

Am I correct in interpreting this discussion to mean that a conscious wrist roll is not the way to go or am I mis-understanding something?

[BC MIST]

Am I correct in interpreting this discussion to mean that a conscious wrist roll is not the way to go or am I mis-understanding something?

Opinions will vary, but with arms moving forward at about 30 mph with a club head accelerating to 100 mph, how can one consciously time a roll of the wrists and get the club face square at separation and on the proper plane? I can't do it consistently; perhaps some can.

IMO, trying hard not to roll the wrists, ie., keeping the lower hand flexed backwards, or the top hand flat, will result in more consistency. In watching players over the years, most flatten the lower wrist too soon coming through, losing both power and accuracy.