Attending the Flagstick

[Colby]

Gary,

Rule 17-1 starts with:

The start Before making a stroke from anywhere on the course, the player may have the flagstick attended, removed or held up to indicate the position of the hole.

I've always been under the impression that if you were not on the green, you only had the choice of leaving the flagstick in, or to have it removed. Yet this rule says that the flagstick could be attended. Does this mean the same thing as attending the flagstick during a putt? Can the flagstick be removed after the shot from off of the green has been taken and the ball still in motion? I can't seem to find a rule to cover this.

[Gary Hill]

Yet this rule says that the flagstick could be attended. Does this mean the same thing as attending the flagstick during a putt? Can the flagstick be removed after the shot from off of the green has been taken and the ball still in motion? I can't seem to find a rule to cover this.

YES and YES.
THIS is the Rule you are looking for.
This IS the Rule for attending the flagstick.

The Rule says: from anywhere on the course.
The Rules does not say your ball has to be on the putting green.

The flagstick is just more often attended when the ball lies on the putting green.

[Colby]

Perfect.

Thanks Gary. That's probably why I couldn't find anything

["Richard"]

Hey gary, had a question for you. I was off the green chipping and my friend pulled the flag as the ball was going at the hole. I didn't see if the ball rolled over the hole of if it missed it and it doesn't really matter to me or not. But what does the rule say here?

Also, my other friend putt while the flag was still in the hole.. he came up really short but my friend said you aren't allowed to put at all while the flag is still in the hole. Do I still have to pull the flag if he is well short?

Finally, lets say my friend is on the green putting from 60 feet but I'm closer but off the green chipping (10 feet)...

Who goes first? and if for some reason the FC putting goes first and has the flag pulled does that mean that I get to put the flag back in for my chip? Or does it stay out since it was already pulled for the put.

THanks

[NoBack]

Who goes first? and if for some reason the FC putting goes first and has the flag pulled does that mean that I get to put the flag back in for my chip? Or does it stay out since it was already pulled for the put.

The rule of thumb (proper ettiquette) is farthest away is up first. Now for speed of play most of us let the FC who is not on, get on the green as to pull the flag. BUT if you are closer to hole and off the green and your FC is further , yes you pull the flag for him to putt and then put it back in for your shot from off the green. Hope this helps.

["Richard"]

awesome, for some reason I was under the impression that if someone is farther but on the green and I was shorter but off the green.. he got to go first and I wouldn't get to put the flag back in for my shot

[el tigre]

Also, my other friend putt while the flag was still in the hole.. he came up really short but my friend said you aren't allowed to put at all while the flag is still in the hole. Do I still have to pull the flag if he is well short?

It is a two-stroke penalty if your ball hits the flagstick while putting from the putting green. If you don't hit it, there is no penalty. Since you are trying to putt the ball in the hole, it is a good idea to ALWAYS pull the flagstick when putting from the putting green.

[Gary Hill]

Hey gary, had a question for you. I was off the green chipping and my friend pulled the flag as the ball was going at the hole. I didn't see if the ball rolled over the hole of if it missed it and it doesn't really matter to me or not. But what does the rule say here?

See Rule 17. The Flagstick. Your friend has incurred a two-stroke penalty.

Also, my other friend putt while the flag was still in the hole.. he came up really short but my friend said you aren't allowed to put at all while the flag is still in the hole. Do I still have to pull the flag if he is well short?

There is no Rule that prohibits putting while the flagstick is in the hole.

Finally, lets say my friend is on the green putting from 60 feet but I'm closer but off the green chipping (10 feet)...Who goes first?

See Rule 10. Order of Play

and if for some reason the FC putting goes first and has the flag pulled does that mean that I get to put the flag back in for my chip? Or does it stay out since it was already pulled for the put.

The player whose turn it is to play may have the flagstick replaced, attended, removed, or held up to indicate the position of the hole.

[Gary Hill]

The rule of thumb (proper ettiquette) is farthest away is up first. Now for speed of play most of us let the FC who is not on, get on the green as to pull the flag. BUT if you are closer to hole and off the green and your FC is further , yes you pull the flag for him to putt and then put it back in for your shot from off the green. Hope this helps.

It is more than a rule of thumb. It is a Rule of Golf.

Rule 10-2. Stroke Play
b. During Play of Hole
After the competitors have started play of the hole, the ball farthest from the hole is played first. If two or more balls are equidistant from the hole or their positions relative to the hole are not determinable, the ball to be played first should be decided by lot.

[NoBack]

I never knew that. I've always played that way but never thought it was a rule.

["Richard"]

Awesome, thanks boys

[LobWedge]

There is no Rule that prohibits putting while the flagstick is in the hole.

We'd better clarify this one for thotho's sake Gary.

See Rule 17-3.

The player’s ball must not strike:

a. The flagstick when it is being attended, removed or held up;
b. The person attending or holding up the flagstick; or
c. The flagstick in the hole, unattended, when the stroke has been made on the putting green.

Exception: When the flagstick is attended, removed or held up without the player’s authority — see Rule 17-2.

So, while you can putt all you want on the green with the flagstick still in the hole, just don't hit it, or hole out with it still in the hole.

["Richard"]

ok, I was so conufsed because it says if you hit the stick its a penalty but you can putt with the flag still in and didn't want to sound like a dummy. Anyway, thanks again for clearning that up. The rules make sense when you read them but when you are in the situation I can't remember how to apply the rule I guess I just have to read more carefully

[davemiddle]

Who would receive the penalty for a ball striking the flagstick that is on the ground

Also if you see that an opponents ball is going to strike the flag stick on the ground are you allowed to move the flagstick

thanks

[LobWedge]

Who would receive the penalty for a ball striking the flagstick that is on the ground

The player who's putt strikes the flagstick receives a 2 stroke penalty (or loss of hole in match play.) See Decision 17-3/3.

Also if you see that an opponents ball is going to strike the flag stick on the ground are you allowed to move the flagstick

Yes and no. Yes if the flag was being attended during the stroke. See Decision 17-1/6.

No if the flag was removed prior to the stroke being played. See Decision 17-1/7

[Gary Hill]

Quote:Originally Posted by davemiddle
Also if you see that an opponents ball is going to strike the flag stick on the ground are you allowed to move the flagstick

Yes and no. Yes if the flag was being attended during the stroke. See Decision 17-1/6.

No if the flag was removed prior to the stroke being played. See Decision 17-1/7

Wrong. Again, another example of not understanding the Rules and trying to make a Decision fit the question. You are doomed to failure using this method to try to understand the Rules.

How many times do I have to repeat this?

[Colby]

Who would receive the penalty for a ball striking the flagstick that is on the ground

This is covered by 17-3 The player's ball must not strike:

a) The flagstick when it is being attended, removed, or held up

Since the flagstick has been removed and placed on the ground, the player who has hit the flagstick loses the hole in match play or receives a two stroke penaltiy in stroke play and the ball must be played where it lies.

Also if you see that an opponents ball is going to strike the flag stick on the ground are you allowed to move the flagstick

thanks

I'm going to go out on a limb on this one Gary, let me know if I am right...

1-2. Exerting influence on Ball

A player or caddie must not take any action to influence the position or the movement of ball except in accordance with the Rules.

Penalty - Match play, loss of hole, Stroke play - 2 strokes.

I can't find anything in the flagstick section that deals with this, and Section 19 - Ball in motion deflected or stopped, deals with outside agencies, players, partners, opponents, fellow competitos and their equipment. In the definition of the flagstick, it doesn't say that it becomes equipment. Also this section deals with hitting things, I can't find anything on moving something so the ball doesn't hit it.

So back to the simple one, Rule 1-2. Is that right?

[LobWedge]

Wrong. Again, another example of not understanding the Rules and trying to make a Decision fit the question. You are doomed to failure using this method to try to understand the Rules.

How many times do I have to repeat this?

How do those decisions not apply to that exact scenario? I should also clarify that 17-1/6 would apply if davemiddle was the attendant during that stroke.

[Gary Hill]

How do those decisions not apply to that exact scenario? I should also clarify that 17-1/6 would apply if davemiddle was the attendant during that stroke.

Yes, I agree that your decision would apply ONLY in the single case where davemiddle was the person attending the flagstick.

That is what the decisions are all about. Single case situations.
Without your above clarification, the decision does not apply.

Listing a bunch of decisions and leaving it up to the reader to figure out which ones apply to his question is more harmful than helpful.

[Gary Hill]

Question 1. This is covered by 17-3
Question 2. Rule 1-2.
Is that right?

Perfect and Perfect.

[Colby]

woohoo!

[LobWedge]

Yes, I agree that your decision would apply ONLY in the single case where davemiddle was the person attending the flagstick.

That is what the decisions are all about. Single case situations.
Without your above clarification, the decision does not apply.

Listing a bunch of decisions and leaving it up to the reader to figure out which ones apply to his question is more harmful than helpful.

Okay, no more decisions. (I saw the sticky note. )

What is the status of a flagstick when it is removed and placed off of the green in the fringe or rough? What happens if a ball is putted off the green and strikes the flagstick then?

[Colby]

Okay, no more decisions. (I saw the sticky note. )

What is the status of a flagstick when it is removed and placed off of the green in the fringe or rough? What happens if a ball is putted off the green and strikes the flagstick then?

I don't think that moving the flagstick off the green makes it something other than a flagstick. If I hit the removed flagstick, I get penalized as per 17-3.

[oldmaninblack]

1. If I ask to have the flag held up because I can't see it from behind the green, then I hit the person holding it with my lob shot, I get a 2 stroke penalty, even though I'm off the green.

17-3. Ball Striking Flagstick or Attendant

The player’s ball must not strike: a. The flagstick when it is being attended, removed or held up; b. The person attending or holding up the flagstick; or c. The flagstick in the hole, unattended, when the stroke has been made on the putting green.

2. The person who jumps over to pull the pin when he sees my ball approaching the hole is assessed a 2 stoke penalty. This happened when I was putting from just off the green and my FC was not attending the flag, but marking his ball when I putted and he literally jumped over and pulled the flag. The ball rolled over the centre of the hole and about 15 feet past. He said he thought I was on the green and apologized and suggested I take the shot over. Of course there is no rule allowing "do overs" when an FC screws up.

24-1. When a ball is in motion, an obstruction that might influence the movement of the ball, other than an attended flagstick or equipment of the players, must not be removed.

(Exerting influence on ball — see Rule 1-2.)

[EDSGOLF]

What is the status of a flagstick when it is removed and placed off of the green in the fringe or rough? What happens if a ball is putted off the green and strikes the flagstick then?

This is considered a VERY bad putt

[Colby]

This is considered a VERY bad putt

You could always putt it off the green into the water...

[Gary Hill]

What is the status of a flagstick when it is removed and placed off of the green in the fringe or rough? What happens if a ball is putted off the green and strikes the flagstick then?

Here is a quick tip on understanding the Rules.

Rule 17-3 says the player’s ball must not strike the flagstick when it is being attended, removed or held up.

The Rule does not list any notes or exceptions. If there were exceptions it would list them.
(e.g. Rule 28. The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course except when the ball is in a water hazard.)

If your ball strikes the flagstick after a stroke when the flagstick is removed from the hole, you have breached Rule 17-3. The end.

It does NOT say: only if your ball is on the putting green.
It does NOT say: only if the flagstick is on the putting green.
It does NOT say: only if the flagstick is nearby.
It does NOT say: only if you have a wager with your playing companions.

Try to use this technique when reading other Rules and you will quickly become an expert in the Rules.

[LobWedge]

Here is a quick tip on understanding the Rules.

Rule 17-3 says the player’s ball must not strike the flagstick when it is being attended, removed or held up.

The Rule does not list any notes or exceptions. If there were exceptions it would list them.
(e.g. Rule 28. The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course except when the ball is in a water hazard.)

If your ball strikes the flagstick after a stroke when the flagstick is removed from the hole, you have breached Rule 17-3. The end.

It does NOT say: only if your ball is on the putting green.
It does NOT say: only if the flagstick is on the putting green.
It does NOT say: only if the flagstick is nearby.
It does NOT say: only if you have a wager with your playing companions.

Try to use this technique when reading other Rules and you will quickly become an expert in the Rules.

That's fine Gary. I understand the difference between the rules as written, with or without exceptions.

This then becomes a question of interpretation. Rule 17-3 reads "...must not strike the flagstick when it is being attended, removed or held up." The operative word in the sentence is "being" and how it relates to the words "attended", "removed" and "held up". These actions, in my opinion, are all described in the present tense as happening during the course of the stroke being played, ie. "being attended", "being removed" or "being held up".

In the situation I described before, the flagstick has already "been removed" (past tense), and in my interpretation, does not apply to 17-3. I know this seems like splitting hairs, but the rule is poorly written in that it can be open to interpretation, regardless of how the committee intended it to be read.

That is why I asked the question.

[LobWedge]

Actually, it is a question of grammar, and that is exactly how it is meant to be read.

[Gary Hill]

I stand corrected on the grammar.

The offending text has been removed.