Drivers with adjustable lofts well maybe not

[Chieflongtee]

From Wishon etech:

TWGT Technical Report on Adjustable Hosel Drivers Coming Soon

Many companies in the golf equipment industry are offering drivers with an adjustable hosel device. For all these drivers, the companies’ claim is that the drivers can be adjusted to a wide range of loft, face angle and lie fitting needs for golfers.
But can they really meet the different loft, lie and face angle fitting needs of golfers? Or are conventional drivers that are selected and bought with the actual loft, lie and face angle specs established in the design of the head better for fitting golfers?
Based on our depth of knowledge of adjustable hosel devices, Wishon Golf is skeptical of the claims the companies are making about the specifications of the adjustable hosel drivers or woods. Our knowledge of adjustable hosel devices comes from the fact that TWGT’s founder, Tom Wishon, created the first set of woods offered with an adjustable hosel device in 1995, 16 years before any other company introduced their models.

The AHT woods (AHT = Adjustable Hosel Technology) that Wishon designed for Golfsmith are seen in the above photo of the page in the 1995 Golfsmith catalog. By making an aluminum sleeve with the bore of the sleeve angled off center, rotation of the shaft within the sleeve allowed the angle of the shaft into the hosel to be changed to alter the lie and/or the face angle of the AHT woods.

While Wishon’s early adjustable hosel device required an epoxy attachment into the hosel, the principle of the modern adjustable hosel device is precisely the same as done with the original AHT woods in 1995. By changing the angle of the shaft into the hosel you slightly change the lie and the face angle.

Every one of the adjustable hosel devices work on the same basic principle – by rotating the shaft inside the device within the hosel, the angle of the shaft into the head is changed. This principle goes all the way back to the days of wooden woods. All wooden woods were made from raw wood turnings which had a large neck diameter of ¾” to 1”. With such a large neck diameter, this allowed the woodmakers to vary the angle of the shaft bore that they drilled into the neck – and from that, to be able to change the LIE and the FACE ANGLE of the head.

Wooden head makers knew they could not change the LOFT by changing the angle of the shaft into the head. On wooden woods, the loft has always had to be changed by machining or filing the face to the desired loft.
All of the adjustable hosel devices work in the same way that the old wooden head makers would custom bore their heads to achieve a different lie or face angle – by changing the angle of the shaft into the head. Just as was the case with the original bored wooden heads, it is not possible to change the loft of a driver or wood by changing the angle of the shaft into the hosel. The lie angle can be changed. The face angle can be changed. Both the lie and face angle together can be changed. But it is not possible to change the loft of a driver or wood by changing the angle of the shaft into the head.
Virtually every golf company offering an adjustable hosel driver claims that their hosel device allows the loft to be changed. Some companies are so sure of their claim for loft changes that they only offer one driver model which they say can cover each loft from 8 to 12 degrees. Yet other companies are still offering multiple lofts in their adjustable hosel drivers. Doesn’t that fact alone make this matter sound a little misleading?
We’ve obtained a few of these modern adjustable hosel drivers and we are currently in the process of taking the most precise measurements for loft, lie and face angle that we can for each hosel adjustment position. When we finish, we will publish our findings, along with photographs to prove that our manner of loft, lie and face angle measurement is correct and precise so there can be no doubt of the accuracy or precision of the measurements.
Wishon Golf feels a strong sense of responsibility to professional custom Clubfitting. Adjustable hosel drivers do NOT represent professional Clubfitting. We hope when we finish this report, clubmakers will then be able to prove to their golfers that they are far better off being fit from scratch with clubheads, shafts, grips all ACCURATELY assembled to each one of the golfer’s best Clubfitting specifications.
Watch for our report on adjustable hosel drivers coming soon.

[downhillslider]

I am in fla as we speak and seen this on my e mail yesterday. Chief, it would be another case of pissing in the wind trying to explain, sell, convince, make golfer's believe, educate the masses, call it what you want.

I get exhausted sometimes explaining to people the way things really are. It is very frustrating.

Thanks for posting the e tech reports, it might be what is required for the OG ers to finally accept the truth about equipment issues.

[orangeTANG]

Very interested to see the results of their tests...

I read a related interesting article about the R1 driver, and how the tour pros are not using drivers with adjustable lofts. TM claims its because Tour Pro's don't need to adjust lofts after they find their proper fit, but this has me wondering if there's more to it.

They have to be doing something, even if only speaking half truths. Adjusting lofts, but affecting other things like lie's or something. I can't see how companies would market something that would end up with lawsuits.

Maybe Taylormade, but not Titleist (kidding!)

[nokids]

I love it when companies knowingly lie about their products and later get exposed. Sue them, class action baby!

[sebber]

As far as I am concerned, I do not use my adjustable driver to tune loft, however I like the face angle options. I used to be a big slicer of the ball, but lately I have changed my swing and I am gradually bringing my face angle back to neutral as I become more confident in my shot shape. If I were using a non adjustable driver, I would be on my 3rd driver since January.. becomes an expensive swing change!

[jlaidley]

Sorry, but I don't understand. I've only demo'd an "adjustable" driver once. When they adjusted the hosel to "reduce loft" I clearly hit it lower. If they didn't reduce the loft what happened to make me hit it lower? It wasn't the placebo effect.


Regarding "Our knowledge of adjustable hosel devices comes from the fact that TWGT’s founder, Tom Wishon, created the first set of woods offered with an adjustable hosel device in 1995, 16 years before any other company introduced their models."

This would seem to ignore the PING TiSi (the turtle on a stick) that had an adjustable hosel back in 1999

[Chieflongtee]

The hosel you are referring to had to be ordered and was not adjustable once epoxied. Similar principle as green dot black dot irons but they can be bent.
http://www.worldgolf.com/golf-equipm...es-control.htm

Keep in mind that when you are changing face angle the effectice loft at impact is also altered.
For example a 9* driver with a 2 degree closed face angle= 11 degree effective loft
The same driver with a 2 degree open face angle= 7 degree effective loft.

http://blog.hirekogolf.com/2009/02/t...-angle-part-3/

Effective Loft: The Clinical
Viewpoint


I want to first speak about how effective loft has been
taught in many club fitting books of the past. We explained how face angle
refers to the direction of the club face at address in a spec gauge, but it can
also be referred at impact. Effective loft is better defined as the wood’s loft
when the club face is placed in a square (0 degree) position whether the actual
head is square or not. Perhaps the best way to review effective loft is through
a series of examples of face angle and loft combinations.


In our first example, we have a driver that has a square face.
Its effective loft is the same as its measured loft. That is, if the club has a
loft that is measured at 12 degrees in a spec gauge then the effective loft will
also be 12 degrees.


But if that 12 degree lofted wood has a face angle of 2
degrees open, its effective loft will be approximately 10 degrees. If the face
of the open faced club is aimed directly at the target, it will in effect have
to be closed down, rolled or hooded to get it into a square position.


How much? We say approximately the same corresponding
amount to the number of degrees it was closed to move the face to the 0 degree
square position. In actuality, it is slightly less than 1 degree, but for
simplicity sake we will use a 1:1 ratio. You will need to look very carefully,
but note how the leading edge is now closer to the ground while the trailing
edge is higher as a result.....

That could be the catch. Let's just wait and see what Wishon finds out.

[jlaidley]

Regarding "Our knowledge of adjustable hosel devices comes from the fact that TWGT’s founder, Tom Wishon, created the first set of woods offered with an adjustable hosel device in 1995, 16 years before any other company introduced their models."

This would seem to ignore the PING TiSi (the turtle on a stick) that had an adjustable hosel back in 1999

The hosel you are referring to had to be ordered and was not adjustable once epoxied. Similar principle as green dot black dot irons but they can be bent.
http://www.worldgolf.com/golf-equipm...es-control.htm

The 1995 Wishon "adjustable hosel" has to be epoxied into place to. It is no more adjustable than the PING TiSi was. Neither is as adjustable as current adjustable clubs. So I still think their claim to be 16 years ahead of everyone else on adjustable hosels is BS.

[Chieflongtee]

To my knowledge 1995 is before 2002 and to my knowledge Maltby came out with weight adjustable heads way before any of the OEM did but that's besides the point.

Find an adapter that can alter the loft only without changing face or lie angle. That is the challenge. It would have to be strong enough to withstand impact forces up to 4000 PSI

[jlaidley]

To my knowledge 1995 is before 2002 and to my knowledge Maltby came out with weight adjustable heads way before any of the OEM did but that's besides the point.

So then you agree with my point that Wishon's claim of being 16 years ahead of everyone with adjustable hosels is inaccurate?

[Chieflongtee]

If the dates are correct yes I agree. Do you agree with the loft hinge?

[Chieflongtee]

The verdict is out. See:

http://wishongolf.com/wp-content/upl...el-drivers.pdf

[downhillslider]

No wonder I hit my 12* Wishon 919thi so low, everyone else are using drivers with 14* of loft and 5* open face angle.

I guess loft realy is your friend.

[Chieflongtee]

I've always wondered why I had to get offset drivers to reduce my power fade

[gregnol]

i knew there was a reason i disliked the adjustable drivers.

[downhillslider]

I would have thought that with the release of Tom Wishon's data on this subject that there would have been a lot more action on this thread. The lack of opinions is quite puzzling. I wonder why.

[BARGEGOLF]

A couple of things that I found remarkable with the numbers

1) the predominantly high lofts (up to 14.5 deg) for these adjustable drivers whether they were TM, Titleist or Ping

2) in the case of the R1, the adjustment to the "face plate" needed to adjust to loft to anything below 10 degrees. I can't imagine how the driver that would look and feel soled prior to takeaway

A more general comment is that the manufacturers are pushing the limits on trying to find ways to get players to buy new products - their move to making drivers, fairway woods and even hybrids "adjustable" is pretty well all that they have left given the restrictions on COR and in the case of drivers - size of head)

[Chieflongtee]

I would have thought that with the release of Tom Wishon's data on this subject that there would have been a lot more action on this thread. The lack of opinions is quite puzzling. I wonder why.

Ever wondered why a driver swing fix did not work for the rest of the clubs?

Comments like I can hit my 3 wood and irons fine but I can't hit the driver worth a darn.
IMHO it is one of the reasons. I was perusing my old Maltby bible and he states that when wooden woods were around it was not uncommon for a driver to be be misbored 6* open.

[sliceleft]

Static measurements are fine, but has any skeptic (or supporter) tried hitting balls with the adjustable drivers, using the different settings with a consistent swing and seeing what effect the settings have on ball flight? Changes in ball flight should be what the manufacturers are selling. Since none of the ads I have seen has trumpeted actual shot patterns, I would bet that the effect is minimal.

[TourIQ]

Great point jterpstr. Anyone know what % of PGA players use adjustable vs. non-adjustable drivers?

I do not like the adjustability, since it can throw a shaft away from its optimal position as per laser FLO.

I read a related interesting article about the R1 driver, and how the tour pros are not using drivers with adjustable lofts. TM claims its because Tour Pro's don't need to adjust lofts after they find their proper fit, but this has me wondering if there's more to it.

[Chieflongtee]

I do not like the adjustability, since it can throw a shaft away from its optimal position as per laser FLO.

How so Harry? According to Kaufman and Golfsmith it does not.

[orangeTANG]

Great point jterpstr. Anyone know what % of PGA players use adjustable vs. non-adjustable drivers?

I do not like the adjustability, since it can throw a shaft away from its optimal position as per laser FLO.

Even knowing how many tour players use these "off the shelf" adjustable drivers may not be the 100% truth. Likely even if they are set up with the adjustable hosels, I'd suspect they are build with a certain setting in mind, meaning the shaft is installed in a certain direction, and the lie/loft/face angle would all be calculated at that particular setting. I'd be surprised if a tour player actually played around with the settings of the driver from round to round without a rebuild from the tour van IMO.

[TourIQ]

Chieflongtee, I am not sure what John Kaufman or GS has stated you have in mind.

If you rotate the shaft in the hosel to a different setting, the shaft will wobble a different amount.
If you have the alignment set with FLO then move the shaft the shaft will wobble as it gets away from its neutral plane.
Rotate a shaft and its clock position to target changes.
In its optimal plane, a driver will hit will less dispersion and with greater distance, away from this plane and lost of performance.

How so Harry? According to Kaufman and Golfsmith it does not.

[TourIQ]

jterpstr, you are probably correct again. They probably don't fool around with the settings once built.

I'd suspect they are build with a certain setting in mind, meaning the shaft is installed in a certain direction, and the lie/loft/face angle would all be calculated at that particular setting. I'd be surprised if a tour player actually played around with the settings of the driver from round to round without a rebuild from the tour van IMO.

[leftylucas]

No wonder I slice, hook, push, block, top, duck hook and shank, its that damn adjustable driver!!!!

[Chieflongtee]

Chieflongtee, I am not sure what John Kaufman or GS has stated you have in mind.

If you rotate the shaft in the hosel to a different setting, the shaft will wobble a different amount.
If you have the alignment set with FLO then move the shaft the shaft will wobble as it gets away from its neutral plane.
Rotate a shaft and its clock position to target changes.
In its optimal plane, a driver will hit will less dispersion and with greater distance, away from this plane and lost of performance.

I see what you are saying if the shaft is rotated. But if the shaft remains in the same position whatever the setting it will not affect FLO. When adjusting the setting what is being moved around? The shaft or the head or both?

And if you're dealing with a shaft with no spine( as an example SK Fiber) then it really does not matter.

[TourIQ]

I could be wrong, but assuming the shaft is rotated relative to the face.
I've never found a single shaft with no spine and one which did not wobble.
I guess they could exist, I've just never found a single specimen.

I like to find a Super Shaft with a large frequency differential - golden when aligned.

I see what you are saying if the shaft is rotated. But if the shaft remains in the same position whatever the setting it will not affect FLO. When adjusting the setting what is being moved around? The shaft or the head or both?

And if you're dealing with a shaft with no spine( as an example SK Fiber) then it really does not matter.

[Chieflongtee]

The super golden shaft you are referring to is probably no longer available unless you can find a shaft that is over 15 years old.
In my findings there are plenty of shafts nowadays that do not wobble or to be more precise shafts that have the same frequency all around the shaft. Graphite shafts manufacturers have come a long way and it very rare that you'll find one nowadays with more than 10 cpms between the spine and nbp. More like 3 or 4 cpms sometimes less. But if you are talking about residual bend that is a different story but in the end residual bend does not matter much in the equation.

[TourIQ]

Sheet wrap graphite produced more Super Shafts than did their filament wound variety.
I have a few new Harrison UL Pro Super Shafts uncut, but as you suggested they are old.
Even when I pull a shaft from a new club, I have yet to find one which does not wobble.
Maybe I get the unlucky ones LOL.

The super golden shaft you are referring to is probably no longer available unless you can find a shaft that is over 15 years old.
In my findings there are plenty of shafts nowadays that do not wobble or to be more precise shafts that have the same frequency all around the shaft. Graphite shafts manufacturers have come a long way and it very rare that you'll find one nowadays with more than 10 cpms between the spine and nbp. More like 3 or 4 cpms sometimes less. But if you are talking about residual bend that is a different story but in the end residual bend does not matter much in the equation.