Home training add/simulator

[pezzer76]

I've been doing some research and came across this board. It seems as though everyone here is pretty educated about the different launch monitors and different technologies used in them and simulators.

I recently built a home and have a large area in the currently unfinished basement where I have a net and mat to hit and take lessons. It is aproxximately 18 feet wide and well over 20 feet deep with 11 foot ceilings.

I am beginning to plan to finish the basement. My plan had always been to custom install an aboutgolf system there.

My concerns are that as I've improved I really want to use the area primarily as a training aid and simulator second. Is there 3 track system accurate in comparison to a trackman integrated with the e6 software? I'm not that worried about putting and chipping. My main focus is improving my swing with the ability to throw some entertainment in every now and then.

I'm not super budget concerned so I really want your opinion as to what would be optimal without price concers.

Thanks so much

Chris

[Msuzippy]

Seems like the GC2 would be a good option. Have you looked in to it?

I'm about to build a new home myself. I'm intrigued by your 11 foot basement ceilings. I've never heard of basement ceilings that high. Why did you go that route? Was it expensive? Any considerations I should think about? I was hoping to go with 10 foot ceilings but I'm worried the cost is going to be outrageous.

[pezzer76]

I dropped the foundation in part of the basement. I'm not sure of the exact cost breakdown to do that though. I just told the builder I needed a space that big with that high of ceilings to hit balls. I'm 6 2 and I didn't even want to have the ceiling as a thought when i swing.
He thought it was a little weird but it didn't seem to be too big of an issue. the rest has 9 foot ceilings.
I've seen a little about the gc2. Not a ton. Do you think it would be more accurate than a trackman or the aboutgolf camera system?

[ZMax]

Here's a recent thread on the Trackman. http://forum.ottawagolf.com/showthre...th-E6-feedback

The Trackman is king outdoors but I would not consider it for indoor use. If I had the money, I would get the Aboulf Golf 3track system. I've used it many times. Very accurate simulator. We have a guy here, mmlincon, who's been playing on it a lot lately. I can't say whether the GC2 is better than the 3Track without doing a side by side comparison. I have the GC2 but won't be able to use it outside till Spring.

[pezzer76]

Thanks Zmax. I've used trackman indoor before, but it was an indoor range with about 150 feet to the wall and 50 ceilings so it was obviously a different set up than what I had.
I've always been leaning towards the aboutgolf, they do a great custom install in homes. I just want to make sure it is accurate enough to use for game improvement.
Why exactly to you think the trackman won't work indoors? I know people are starting to use them at indoor clubfitters.

[ZMax]

Why exactly to you think the trackman won't work indoors? I know people are starting to use them at indoor clubfitters.

Oh, it will work indoors if you have enough depth(at least 27ft). I just don't believe that it will be as accurate as the GC2 or 3Track when used indoors. I don't have a TM in my basement but I do have a good idea on how the TM estimates spin axis and club face angle. If you read the thread posted above, you will see that when used indoors, the TM estimates spin axis with club path, ball data, other parameters. The TM also estimates club face angle, which later becomes part of the spin axis estimation. Basically, some magic is happening here.

It doesn't mean that TM won't be a decent simulator. I just don't think it would be as good as the other two. Also, if you remember, AboutGolf's earlier simulators were based a 3D doppler system from Flightscope, similar technology as that of TM. AboutGolf must of felt that high speed cameras were a better way to go for indoor simulation.

[playsted]

Pezzer,

I've been looking into the Trackman myself and still can't decide really if it's something I want or not. The downsides to Trackman are as follows:

* No chipping or putting
* No spin axis measurement (derived from club path and launch info I believe)
* Very little history of indoor use (compared to alternatives)
* Yearly subscription costs

For whatever reason a lot of people around here seem to hate on the Trackman indoor even though they haven't ever used one and don't really have information about it. Everyone I've talked to who has one or used one has been pretty impressed with near identical results to using the Trackman outside.

[pezzer76]

I agree that the lack of chipping and putting is a drawback. Its not a deal breaker for me though.. if it was more accurate as far as helping my swing improve. I take lessons weekly in my basement so having that data is a plus.
It looks like you have to buy an extra software package from aboutgolf to get that data. Also, I believe you still have to use their marked balls and I don't think they have prov1xs available (correct me if i'm wrong).
Basically, I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of the simulator experience if it would help me improve my swing. If aboutgolf is just as good, then I'm probably going that way. it will be more expensive though.

[pezzer76]

zmax

my set up is a little unusual because you step down into the hitting area. The lower area has a depth of about 20 feet. however I have another 20 feet or so behind that. It is just two feet higher then the hitting surface. Do you know how the trackman is positioned?

if it is ground level right behind the ball it might not really be a possibility for me without redoing the foundation.

[ZMax]

Who are you referring playsted? Even though I don't have a TM, I knew more about how it worked that some of the TM owners that have come on here claiming they were experts. I've own many different types of simulators and have a lot of experience with electronics. I know more than you think. A lot of people own the Zelocity and use it for club fitting. For a while they had no idea what a piece of it was.

If you really want a TM, then go get one. Then come back here and tell us how great it is.

[playsted]

zmax

my set up is a little unusual because you step down into the hitting area. The lower area has a depth of about 20 feet. however I have another 20 feet or so behind that. It is just two feet higher then the hitting surface. Do you know how the trackman is positioned?

if it is ground level right behind the ball it might not really be a possibility for me without redoing the foundation.

Trackman needs a "minimum" of 16 ft total (10 feet ball flight, unit placed 6 feet behind ball). This may produce less than desirable spin numbers with high ball speeds so 20+ feet is recommended for accurate spin rate. They state they need to observe 1.5 revolutions on the golf ball for an accurate number. If you only have 10 feet of ball flight with a 150 mph ball speed, spin rates lower than ~2000 rpm won't be observable.

[playsted]

Pezzer,

Also, for your setup, you could hit from the low area into the high area for additional ball flight. Radar based unit against the back wall in the low area, hit towards to higher area. Any normally struck shot is going to be above 2 ft in height after 10+ feet of flight. Just add some padding to the step down in case of topped shot or chipping.

Definitely look into the GC2 also. I think this would be a much more cost effective solution than aboutgolf (although I haven't seen any recent pricing).

[pezzer76]

Hitting into the higher area won't work as well for the overall setup of the basement. Would basically be hitting into the living area of the basement when it is finished.

does the trackman sit on the ground behind the ball, or is it elevated?

With the aboutgolf, what do people think about their balance software and swing video that you can add to the software package?

[bubba22]

Pezzer what is your handicap? What exactly does your game need improving in? For most amateurs its shortgame for sure. Do you take lessons? What are you looking for in game improvement - Swing improvement? Ball Tweaking? Club Tweaking? Are youinterested in playing courses or just swinging and seeing your ball flight? There are many questions you need to be real about before making a decision. I think the GC2 will be a great option for practice at home. Trackman indoors in my oprinion is not as accurate but that is a debate. Like Zmax I like the About golf 3 track system. Swing video is great but the balance software is not needed. Unless your a pro don't expect that your game will be solved with a home setup until your short game is like Tigers or Phils.

[CPA]

Pezzer I would suggest the GC2 as well. Use your own balls, take it to your range etc. For club data put up another projector facing sidewall to project screen from swingbyte2 which will include video and 3d of full swing.(note accuracy of SB and SB2 is still the big question).

Make sure you have good hitting mat. Truestrike gel, real feel etc.

[pezzer76]

my index is a 9. Been playing for 5 seasons now. Swing speed with a six iron is in the mid 90's and carry 195 r so. Have been mainly focusing on swing and take a lesson once a week in my basement already. Just don't have as much info as I'd like when I'm down there. I can feel the slice or pull, etc, but I would like to have more information. I understand that to get to scratch i'm going to have to focus on the short game. Can't do the chipping etc too much indoors.
Its going to be built into a finished basement (currently unfinished). Would like the ability to play some course as well. there will be a few stand up video games (ms pac man/galaga. poker table, full bar, tv area etc. so I would like to be able to play some courses when entertaining as well.

[bubba22]

I play to a 5. What part of your game are you losing your strokes? I betcha the short game is one of them so my advice is practice the short game like crazy. Don't overthink this. Its obviously your money. You will be happy with the GC2 by the sounds of things. Your not a pro are you? PGA tour? Just an amateur trying to inmprove like all of us.

[pezzer76]

You think that the gc2 is as accurate as the 3 track system? its still going to be expensive by the time I get an impact screen, touch screen control, high def projector, etc. Not sure the about golf would be that much more.

Which would you get if they cost the same bubba22? You know more about them than me.

I know I need to work on short game. Putting is ok but chipping from rough and bunker play is a huge weakness for me. I am planning on focusing on that this season. but the winter is great for grooving a swing. Besides, the more greens you hit, the less you need to chip.

[bubba22]

I agree about the winter for focus and keeping swing in place. Too many people have the expectations that if I get a sim all of a sudden I will be on tour. Trust me I am one of those folks that wants a fix, like a new driver every year because Taylormade said I would get 17 more yards. Both About Golf and GC2 are good enough for the average player and in fact the PGA pro. No one will tell you which is better/more accurate etc. They are both realistics units. Say you hit on both and the sidespin is different by 100 rpm and the resultant spin axis is slightly different, will it matter???? What is important is you understand your swing and what your misses are doing, so big slice, hooks etc. and how to avoid them. Golf is a game of your misses and how you respond to those shots NOT how well you hit every shot. Obviously avoiding trouble is the key but if every PGA pro gets in trouble during any given round then so are we. Difference is their short game and scrambling will save them better than we can. So the answer is GC2 and About Golf are both good. If the price were the same I would probably get the About golf given I like their course graphics slightly better. If price is an issue I would get the GC2 as its probably slightly cheaper. Having said that, call both companies and do a price comparison and let us know what you find out. Don't over think the accuracy part as you will not notice it.

[pezzer76]

I really appreciate every one's response to this. Its a lot of money to plop down so I want to do as much research as possible.

I don't expect to be on tour. I would like to limit my misses though. The more playable you're misses are the better you will score. I feel that I can shave another couple of strokes off my index with more consistent ball strking. after that it will be up to me to get better around the greens.

One thing about the aboutgolf is they do a really nice custom install. I have seen an older model in another home here in town and there is a wow factor to it. If it is as or close to as accurate than that is probably the way I will go.

[wbealsd]

There's definitely a wow factor with the About Golf system graphics, but I tend to agree with bubba22, if you're primarily interested in grooving your swing, I don't think you'd improve any less with a GC2 and you'll never be able to take your AboutGolf system to the range with you - lol Does the AG system have any club fitting software? For what it's worth, I'm very pleased that the local club fitter (town where I work but 50 miles from home) also uses a GC2 so I can save data files and discuss results with him. Cory and vendor sites like Foresight also have information for installing impact screens, projectors, etc, so system installation shouldn't be an issue with any competent builder. Not much for a builder to DO, other than screen, projector mounting and turf installation with a GC2.

I honestly don't know the price of an AboutGolf installation, just that my understanding from the guys who just started a a new business in the area and installed a 5 bay AG system (one is the sim-surround) there's quite a bit of price difference between AG and GC2. The "wow graphics" seemed to be their primary reason for choosing AG.

[bubba22]

Not as big a price difference as you think wbealsd between the About golf and the GC2. Don't compare the GC2 to the full blown, 3 projector sim surround system. That's not a fair comparison. Last I checked the ISU About golf was just under 12 grand.

[pezzer76]

I don't have the room for a sim surround (or the budget). If the accuracy of the aboutgolf is on par with the other launch monitors than I would probably lean towards it. Better graphics, etc.

The Gc2 is fairly expensive if you get the upgraded projector, impact screen, and all the bells and whistles. Still cheaper than aboutgolf though.

They have club fitting software for aboutgolf. I think you have to add it. My choice would prob be the classic screen with isu 3 track launch monitor, the agflix camera, and the club fitting software added to it. Can't remember what they called that.

[ZMax]

I honestly don't know the price of an AboutGolf installation, just that my understanding from the guys who just started a a new business in the area and installed a 5 bay AG system (one is the sim-surround) there's quite a bit of price difference between AG and GC2. The "wow graphics" seemed to be their primary reason for choosing AG.

Here's an example of a guy who had no idea what he was doing. Great simulators for people to play on but it takes a long time to turn a profit when your simulators cost over $50K each installed. Lesson will be learned.

Here's another: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-PGA-Tour-S...item2c6bf0f65e

Somebody should offer to buy one those 3Tracks.

Anybody can give free advise on the internet. Pay attention to those with experience.

[wbealsd]

I wish these guys well, I really do, but don't be surprised if I announce a great deal on some "slightly used" About Golf systems sometime later this year or early next. The new simulator / sports bar is located at an intersection where a LOT of businesses have come and gone over the past few years... I got MY deal on the GC2 under similar circumstances. ZMax's link shows pretty much the scenario I forecast for the one that just opened here, $100,000 for all 5 systems...

[pezzer76]

spoke with aboutgolf today
About golf has a product more geared as a launch monitor only that can be purchased for the mid 20's. Add another 20+ for the full simulator package especially if you add their camera package and balance monitors etc. They will wiggle from the msrp on the website

I read a few threads on some other sites really trashing the accuracy of the 3 track monitor. ie telling them they were hitting a 3 iron 280( and it wasn't Dustin Johnson).

Bubba, it sounds as though you have some experience with them and feel they are accurate. Anyone else have any comments on their accuracy?

[Frans@france]

I read a few threads on some other sites really trashing the accuracy of the 3 track monitor. ie telling them they were hitting a 3 iron 280( and it wasn't Dustin Johnson).

imho the quality of the ball flight calculations has nothing to do with the possible accuracy of the measurements.....

[pezzer76]

Thanks for the cryptic reply.

could you please explain what you meant by that so that someone with less experience with this type of equipment could understand?

much appreciated

[Frans@france]

Thanks for the cryptic reply.

could you please explain what you meant by that so that someone with less experience with this type of equipment could understand?

much appreciated

That it is possible for a machine to measure the ball data in very good detail (accurate and precise) but as it doesn't measure the ball during its complete flight at some point the software has to take over by making further calculations based on a model. If that model is not correct then even with very good high quality data the ball flight calculation can still produce bizarre results.

So hitting a 3i @280 can mean that the data was correctly measured but the ball flight model is crap. Feeding that data into a better model will generate a better ballflight.

Good example was a certain indoor LM used for long drive. It's calculations at launch angles around 4 degree were completly incorrect. The LD had to make a rule to not allow 4* launch angles in competition

[pezzer76]

I see what you are saying. do you have any experience with aboutgolf? Do you feel their measurements are accurate? What about their calculations?

I have only used an older radar based unit of theirs.

Thanks for your help.