Loft and Lies

[nokids]

So, as per Dowhillsilder's calculations, Golfworks was:

off by .5 degrees on the 3, 4, 7, 8 iron,
off by 1.5 degrees on the 6 iron,
off by 1.25 degrees on the 9 iron,
and correct on the 5 and PW.

If these numbers are true, I'm pretty disappointed to have paid GW for this service. Is Golfworks using a bending machine to check lofts?

[Chieflongtee]

Tengo una pregunta para ti. How come you did not ask before you had them done knowing what you already knew?

Why did you just not take them directly to Les in the first place?

It is not an exact science unfortunately and depending on the tool used(measuring gauge-the best ones are almost unaffordable) and the operator you may get different results.

But in the end how many of us are exactly pin high on our approach shots to the green?

[nokids]

Tengo una pregunta para ti. How come you did not ask before you had them done knowing what you already knew?

Simple I didn't know. I asked someone more knowledgeable than me if I should go to GT or GW and they said GW would be more accurate. Still I should have asked GW what machine they used, I just assumed it would be a Mitchell or True Blue!

Not that I'm expecting to be exactly pin high but AT LEAST I want my equipment to have the proper separation of degrees btwn each club to make it easier for me to have the proper gaps in distance. It's ridiculous that we hackers give these golf stores money to set us up right and they still can't do it.

I'm ranting. But seriously, something's wrong and I have a plan to fix it.

"GROUP BUY"!

A top of the line Mitchel L/L machine is $1600 from a mississauga store. I say we get some investors together to buy it. Leave the machine at one of the homes of a local clubfitter, someone who knows how to use it, they can charge people in Ottawa to have their clubs checked and bent, once they get enough money they can pay back each investor their capital investment plus 20% of the investment. So investor gives $100, he gets back $120 after year 1, $144 after year 2, etc...

Link to Canadian store:

http://www.golfsupplyhouse.com/product/686

US store:

http://www.mitchellgolf.com/STEELCLU...e-Machine.html

[Chieflongtee]

The scuba would be a better choice. Adjustment on the spot.
http://www.mitchellgolf.com/SCUBA.html

And for the loft and lie gauge

US$3,065.00

The workhorse of OEMs, casting houses and club designers alike, this classic heavy duty lie and loft measuring gauge has been completely digitized and now offers measuring accuracy down to 0.1 degree. A one step built in calibration procedure and RS-232 data collection port makes the Auditor DLL the ideal online quality control tool. Please inquire for availability and lead-time. There goes your budget

[jeffc]

you would think they could provide something a little more professional looking rather than have it look like it was scrawled on the back of a cocktail napkin.

[nokids]

Put me in for $100 toward the pot.

30 more investors to go!

Perks of being an investor: 2 free L/L checks + adjustments per golf season for the next 5 years (for the entire set of clubs, 14).

The scuba would be a better choice. Adjustment on the spot.
http://www.mitchellgolf.com/SCUBA.html

And for the loft and lie gauge

US$3,065.00

The workhorse of OEMs, casting houses and club designers alike, this classic heavy duty lie and loft measuring gauge has been completely digitized and now offers measuring accuracy down to 0.1 degree. A one step built in calibration procedure and RS-232 data collection port makes the Auditor DLL the ideal online quality control tool. Please inquire for availability and lead-time. There goes your budget

[downhillslider]

010335.gifThis is very similar to the Cadillac I own.

The digital Ferrari Chief posted is nice, but I don't need features such as instant weather updates, daily astrological charts and satelite radio.

When I order hand picked heads from Wishon, they are measured with the non digital model of the AUDITOR pro L/L machine. When they arrive, I check them with my Cadillac. Never had an issue.

Where I did have issues was 15 years ago when I was using a Ford Pinto for a gage.

[Chieflongtee]

When I order hand picked heads from Wishon,
.

So are your mesurements in sync with Wishon?

[downhillslider]

So are your mesurements in sync with Wishon?

If I never had an issue, the answer should be obvious.

I should also point out that any hand picked heads I order are woods for loft and face angle and hybrids for loft, not iron heads.

The whole point was to establish the credibility of a decent L/L guage up against equipment like the Auditor as opposed to a value line guage.

If the unit is square and level and is capable of clamping and maintaning the club securely in a square playing position, then the protractor does the the rest. I do not rely on the increment scale on the side for readings.

+/- 0.1* of accuracy is like you say, "a mouse fart" and to bend a hosel accurately that much would be near impossible and non productive. When your are +/- 0.5* or more difference between a guage and a bending machine reading, I think it's worth looking into.

[Chieflongtee]

Take a look at the following:
http://www.clubmate-golf.com.au/News...july-05.html#2

IMHO measuring loft and lie can vary depending on who does the measuring no matter how good they are. Not by much but the possibility is there and surely ther will be +- in the mix. So a.5 reading between users is within tolerance I would say. And I would also say that one's reading could vary slightly from one session to the next.
BTW take alook at the picture below. I would say that it would be very easy to be off by .5 using that gauge. The difference between degrees is a little less than 1/16th of an inch.

[Chieflongtee]

you would think they could provide something a little more professional looking rather than have it look like it was scrawled on the back of a cocktail napkin.

Looks like someone stopped at BK on the way back.

[downhillslider]

Take a look at the following:
http://www.clubmate-golf.com.au/News...july-05.html#2

IMHO measuring loft and lie can vary depending on who does the measuring no matter how good they are. Not by much but the possibility is there and surely ther will be +- in the mix. So a.5 reading between users is within tolerance I would say. And I would also say that one's reading could vary slightly from one session to the next.
BTW take alook at the picture below. I would say that it would be very easy to be off by .5 using that gauge. The difference between degrees is a little less than 1/16th of an inch.

Good to see you back in fine form Chief. You have been a stranger for quite a while.

TWGT ETech report june/july 2005. Just happen to have that one, and the all others that have followed tucked away in a folder from witch I refrence quite frequently, along with the " Common Sense Clubfitting, the Wishon method " released in 2005 ($45.50 u.s +shipping ) goes into more detail about this subject.

You are intitled to your opinion, in fact you are intitiled to several opinions witch you have displayed.

For now , I will keep doing things the way I have been until someone can prove otherwise what Wishon does is wrong.

For the record, when I take L/L measurements, I take 3 to 4 readings to confirm the result.

[Chieflongtee]

For now , I will keep doing things the way I have been until someone can prove otherwise what Wishon does is wrong.

For the record, when I take L/L measurements, I take 3 to 4 readings to confirm the result.

All I said is there is room for error or rather for tolerances. Never said you were doing it wrong.

I can live with +-.5 either way.

I will give you another example. When cutting a shaft for final playing length one could easily be off by 1/16 th either way depending on the method used i.e club in playing position.

Enjoy your day and keep up the spirit

[Txxxxxxx]

My take on it is that I'm pretty sure that I'm not going to notice .5 of a degree. I'm not good enough that even 1 degree is going to make a difference. I don't know many people that I have golfed with that are PGA calibre where .5 of a degree is going to make a difference. I'm more concerned if my 7 iron is 1 degree difference from my 8 iron as far as loft goes.

[downhillslider]

My take on it is that I'm pretty sure that I'm not going to notice .5 of a degree. I'm not good enough that even 1 degree is going to make a difference. I don't know many people that I have golfed with that are PGA calibre where .5 of a degree is going to make a difference. I'm more concerned if my 7 iron is 1 degree difference from my 8 iron as far as loft goes.

Food for thought.

With an iron,under normal playing conditions and with a reasonable swingspeed, 1* of loft = 2 to 3 yrd. of distance, so with 4* between clubs, that's 8 to 12 yrds. beween clubs, so let's say 10y.

If your 7i is 0.5* weak and the 8i is 1* strong, the yardage gap between these 2 clubs could decrease as much as 3 yards.So instead of a 10yrd. gap you got 7.

Now what if the 9i is that little 0.5* weak you have the same gapage between these 2 clubs also. Not good for the main approach irons to be this way.

That's significant in the grand scheme of things throughout the whole set and is is one of the reasons why it is vitally important to check your lofts. If other clubs are out, it affects the whole set.

It's got nothing to do with how good a golfer you are, it's about maximizing your potential in any way shape or form through properly fitted/adjusted equipment.

[Big Johnny69]

Food for thought.

With an iron,under normal playing conditions and with a reasonable swingspeed, 1* of loft = 2 to 3 yrd. of distance, so with 4* between clubs, that's 8 to 12 yrds. beween clubs, so let's say 10y.

If your 7i is 0.5* weak and the 8i is 1* strong, the yardage gap between these 2 clubs could decrease as much as 3 yards.So instead of a 10yrd. gap you got 7.

Now what if the 9i is that little 0.5* weak you have the same gapage between these 2 clubs also. Not good for the main approach irons to be this way.

That's significant in the grand scheme of things throughout the whole set and is is one of the reasons why it is vitally important to check your lofts. If other clubs are out, it affects the whole set.

It's got nothing to do with how good a golfer you are, it's about maximizing your potential in any way shape or form through properly fitted/adjusted equipment.

Sing it sister!!!!

[downhillslider]

Sing it sister!!!!

Enjoying this one , are you ?

Chime in big guy !

[Big Johnny69]

Enjoying this one , are you ?

Chime in big guy !

It had more to do with your last two lines but highlighting and bolding is very difficult to do on my phone.

[Txxxxxxx]

Food for thought.

With an iron,under normal playing conditions and with a reasonable swingspeed, 1* of loft = 2 to 3 yrd. of distance, so with 4* between clubs, that's 8 to 12 yrds. beween clubs, so let's say 10y.

If your 7i is 0.5* weak and the 8i is 1* strong, the yardage gap between these 2 clubs could decrease as much as 3 yards.So instead of a 10yrd. gap you got 7.

Now what if the 9i is that little 0.5* weak you have the same gapage between these 2 clubs also. Not good for the main approach irons to be this way.

That's significant in the grand scheme of things throughout the whole set and is is one of the reasons why it is vitally important to check your lofts. If other clubs are out, it affects the whole set.

It's got nothing to do with how good a golfer you are, it's about maximizing your potential in any way shape or form through properly fitted/adjusted equipment.

Out of all the golfers in Ottawa, how many of them do you think have their lofts and lies checked? I'm willing to bet it's less than 10%. And those 10% are probably assistant pros, pros, and people who are close to scratch golfers...You could also add people who buy component clubs from people like yourself into that group as well.

As someone noted above....If you know how far you hit each club...we're talking roughly here since we know that most of us cannot pin seek within two yards of the pin and know for certain it's going there. Most of the time, if we're within 6 feet of the hole, it's not because we are that good, it's usually lucky.

If my gap is 7 yards instead of 10, that's roughly 9 feet. Usually our misses are not 3 yards..They're more like 10 yards. HAHA!

This is generally speaking of course.

I do think it's important to check once in a while, but there's no way anyone is going to convince me that spending a $1000 for a service is value for your money.

As I said before...If golf was my job, I would for sure spend it. There's a return on investment.

[Big Johnny69]

Billy, it doesn't cost $1000 to have your lofts and lies checked. The pieces of equipment cost that much (in some cases more). It would cost.you about $40-60 at the start of each season to check your gear, and that much again if you check during the season (remember, your clubs are hitting the ground many times a round and during practice). So in the grand scheme of things, if you want to make sure your equipment is optimized, it won't cost you that much.

[Txxxxxxx]

Billy, it doesn't cost $1000 to have your lofts and lies checked. The pieces of equipment cost that much (in some cases more). It would cost.you about $40-60 at the start of each season to check your gear, and that much again if you check during the season (remember, your clubs are hitting the ground many times a round and during practice). So in the grand scheme of things, if you want to make sure your equipment is optimized, it won't cost you that much.

I was under the impression to have your set 'blue printed', the service was upwards of $1000. Is this not correct info?

I'd spend $60 to have it done a couple of times a season, but it's probably not going to change my score. HAHA!

[Big Johnny69]

If you want a complete build. Any reputable fitter can build you a set for well under $1000. Blue printing is the extreme where you will probably only find the elite amateurs and pros doing that.

[nokids]

I'd spend $60 to have it done a couple of times a season, but it's probably not going to change my score. HAHA!

If done "properly" and you have the right gaps between clubs it might help your score a lot. Dont expect this service at GT or GW though.

[Chieflongtee]

I was under the impression to have your set 'blue printed', the service was upwards of $1000. Is this not correct info?

I'd spend $60 to have it done a couple of times a season, but it's probably not going to change my score. HAHA!

Once every 2 years even more so if you play cast clubs. On another note how many times will you find yourself with the same exact perfect conditions that you will find in those gauges? Downhill/uphill lie 1.5 degree,fluffy lie,flyer lie,hardpan,sidehill lie and the list goes on.
BTW our good friend BJ does not hold on to his clubs long enough for him to have them checked

[Big Johnny69]

I never claimed to practice what I preach!! LOL!