Component vs. Brand Name iron sets

[Txxxxxxx]

I have another question....Well two actually..

With all this information that is pro-component...And if they are similar in price or less as some have said, why doesn't everyone on this forum go out and get fitted properly and play a set of components??? I mean we all strive to play as well as we can. Why not take advantage of being fit correctly and maximizing our equipment to fit our games?

Second question is....The major OEM companies put tons of money into R&D. Do they component companies like KZG and Wishon do the same? How do they test their new designs? Does Tom Wishon test every single clubhead design that comes out? If so...are these designs a matter of opinion on what is best or will work best? Or is there some actual feedback from people who play the game for a living? OR...do they just mimic what an OEM brand has done and tweak it slightly as to not infringe on any patents?

[Wilster]

Are there any pros on tour gaming Wishon ?

[Big Johnny69]

Are there any pros on tour gaming Wishon ?

I doubt it as I don't think Wishon pays for play.

[downhillslider]

All very good points but keep in mind, I am not comparing buying off the rack to component. I am comparing a proper fitting for OEM vs. a proper fitting for components. I'm pretty sure TM, Titleist, Ping, etc etc etc all offer free fitting followed by custom orders. I'm trying to weigh the benefits of one or the other along with the cost for each.

4) Standard length clubs with OEMS. Should everyone play a 3 iron at 39 inches?Possible to order different lengths as far as I know..

Do the OEM's take in to account what happens to the specs of the golf club when it is lenghtened or shortened ?I doubt it. I am not just reffering to swingweight. What about what happends to the flex and bend profile of the shaft ? What about what happens to the lie angle ?

What if the customer requires clubs 1.5'' longer, will the sales clerk know that a lighter shaft would have to be considered in order to maintain playability at that lenght ? I doubt it.

Would the clerk know to recommend 3/8'' increments between irons ? I doubt it.

How would the OEM in question lengthen clubs by 1.5'' ? I have seen several different ways throuhgout my time as a clubmaker and all I can say the results continue to re inforce my opinion that all the OEM's really care about are their bottom lines.

If you sincerely beleive you are getting a truly real custom fitting at a retail store or a demo day and it is free, you are sadly mistaken. you are getting what you pay for.

Getting custom fitted is a process and is time consuming, as it should be.

[jvincent]

None of the component companies really spend any money on getting their clubs into the hands of the tour guys. It's just not feasible given the model for their business.

In the case of Wishon, he does a lot of R&D, maybe not on the scale $$ wise of the big OEMs but he definitely does it. I know he has a Trackman for all of the analysis sessions on prototypes and I believe he also has a hitting robot.

One thing that helps for him in particular is that because it is a private business without shareholders and the stock market to keep happy all he needs to do is generate enough revenue according to whatever his business goals are. To that end, he does not release lots of new models every year to try to fuel growth. He has a relatively limited set of models to choose from and usually introduces a major new model every other year or so.

As far as "quality" goes, his stuff (and this is generally true of the other non-ripoff component guys) is as good as anything from the OEMs. In the end, it really comes down to preference for most people and for those of us who build our own, price is also a factor.

To put it in numbers, a set of Mizuno/Titleist/TM irons equivalent to my current set would have cost me approx 2X what it cost me to build mine.

[Txxxxxxx]

4) Standard length clubs with OEMS. Should everyone play a 3 iron at 39 inches?Possible to order different lengths as far as I know..

Do the OEM's take in to account what happens to the specs of the golf club when it is lenghtened or shortened ?I doubt it. I am not just reffering to swingweight. What about what happends to the flex and bend profile of the shaft ? What about what happens to the lie angle ?

What if the customer requires clubs 1.5'' longer, will the sales clerk know that a lighter shaft would have to be considered in order to maintain playability at that lenght ? I doubt it.

Would the clerk know to recommend 3/8'' increments between irons ? I doubt it.

How would the OEM in question lengthen clubs by 1.5'' ? I have seen several different ways throuhgout my time as a clubmaker and all I can say the results continue to re inforce my opinion that all the OEM's really care about are their bottom lines.

If you sincerely beleive you are getting a truly real custom fitting at a retail store or a demo day and it is free, you are sadly mistaken. you are getting what you pay for.

Getting custom fitted is a process and is time consuming, as it should be.

I think you are misinterpreting what I'm comparing a component fitter to an OEM fitting. If I go to Taylor Made Centre or Titleist Centre in the Toronto area, are you saying these guys working at these places are not qualified to fit an individual? I'm not talking about going to Golftown to get a club sales guy to watch me swing and fit me.

You often get deals at these places when you order a set of clubs from the manufacturer. As far as I understand, these guys are well qualified and can send your specifications to their custom department. I know for sure many different adjustments can be made. I've ordered some clubs more flat and some more upright as far as lie goes.

I don't in any way shape or form have a bias towards either type of clubs. I don't have a loyalty to components or OEM. I've just never had components in my hands that suited my eye or didn't look cheaply made. Keep in mind, it was years ago that I tried them out.

Basically I'm trying to figure out what the point of buying OEM is, if components are "better" for your game or have "better" club fitters available than the OEM market.

[Kilroy]

OEM is all about volume. I have no idea why so many people buy and play OEM clubs and then sell them here 6 months after buying them. Many people 'don't believe' in the component clubs because they are unknown to them. All they are exposed to are the mass market brands. It lookks like black magic to them but in reality it's the way to go.
The tour guys are fitted and tweeked regularly. The big manufacturers send a truck to each event to support their players. Not the same as what you buy at your local retail outfit even with a good fitting.

[Chieflongtee]

At best OEM fitting is an approximation. Not saying they do not make quality clubs but there is big time marketing behind some of their claims.


For example TM drivers do not play true to loft(i.e for example a 10.5 driver is oftentimes more like a 14-15 degree driver but to satisfy their customer's ego they write down 10.5 on the sole -source Leith Anderson)
Also read somewhere that Callaway marked the shafts as stiff for the same reason i.e the male ego but in reality the flex was more like regular.

Irons have stronger lofts for distance claims etc..

As far as fitting irons I do not think that any of the OEM have clubs that start at C5 swingweight all the way up to D6 for example. I also do not think they use impact decals for that same purpose or for fittling length.

Speaking of length. Some manufacturer's have 38.75 as the standard 3 iron length as opposed to some who have 39 inches. How do they fit you for length? Wrist to floor measurement? Or dynamic fitting with impact decals? Let's say you measure 6'6 but have really long arms should you get fitted for longer irons? Or let's say you hunch over a la Fuzzy should you get shorter clubs? Or if you have a 20 index perhaps shorter clubs would help you more than longer.

You can also believe that you need upright or flat angles but keep in mind that the shaft bows downs when swung and that clubs have tolerances and you can't really say
that 1 degree upright across the set will fit the bill. I once had Eric Cook bend my clubs on the spot and he did each and everyone of them. Some required 1/2 bend while others required 2 degree bend.

Components are not clones and in my opinion it is all about tolerances. I have come across OEM irons that were out of whack weightwise.

OEMS do not fit for grip size as far as I know. A good clubfitter can test various grip sizes on the same club by simply removing them with a compressor and test the results on a launch monitor. Grip size is not only about feel.

You also mentionned shaft selection. Usually OEM offer one or 2 choices and that's it.
Made by so and so for so and so. Do you need heavier shafts or lighter shafts or xtiff shafts?

BTW I am not a clubfitter but let me tell you a little story.A few years back I built 4 different clubs with 4 different frequencies. I sent them away to a guy who was struggling with hooking the ball and who had to line up way to the right in order to get it close to the hole. He settled on 5.5 across the set. Problem solved

[Chieflongtee]

Ask Moe:
http://moenormangolf.com/faq/what-ki...ring-his-life/

What kind of golf clubs did Moe Norman use during his life?

[COLOR=#666666 !important]admin 20th July 2011 [/COLOR]





Moe played with all sorts of conventional clubs, but he altered them dramatically. He tore off all the conventional golf grips and replaced them with heavy, thicker grips. He adjusted the lie angle to fit him and added more weight to the clubhead – usually with lead tape. The main thing about Moe Norman’s club to know is that they fit him and his personal preference for weight, grip size, lie angle, and shaft flex.

[BC MIST]

With all this information that is pro-component...And if they are similar in price or less as some have said, why doesn't everyone on this forum go out and get fitted properly and play a set of components??? I mean we all strive to play as well as we can. Why not take advantage of being fit correctly and maximizing our equipment to fit our games?

-There are many golfers, perhaps the majority, who unfortunately believe that an OEM iron set, will perform better than a component set.
-Many golfers who have been "fitted" at a retailer, believe that what was done during that "fitting" process, is all that needs to be done.
-Possibly, there are some who do not want to spend all the extra time and additional trips that it takes to have the job done properly by a good club fitter.
-There are golfers, who can afford it, who just like the excitement of buying and trying the latest OEM offerings, and then quickly sell them when the magic has rubbed off.

Having said all the above, it's still not the "arrow," but having confidence and trust in the equipment you have, does make some difference.

[Break68]

More from Tom Wishon:
http://wishongolf.com/about-twgt/cus...-off-the-rack/
Enjoy!

[Txxxxxxx]

I think I'd be interested in having a fitting done during the offseason for some irons. Sounds like an interesting experiment anyway.

[goliath]

i just wish there were more Left handed component options. Its so minimal. Its all super game improvement irons and barely any players clubs. I played the Dynacraft prophet irons and I liked them except for the black head. After a really short time I just couldnt stand looking down at a black head.

[BC MIST]

i just wish there were more Left handed component options. Its so minimal. Its all super game improvement irons and barely any players clubs.

Years ago, while attending a club maker's symposium sponsored mainly by Dynacraft, the question, "Why are there not more left handed components being produced?" was asked It was indicated that 7% of U.S. golfers were left handed while in Canada it was closer to 30%, so from a business perspective, it did not make sense for them to produce left handed components. Tom Wishon had indicated the same thing. One Canadian club maker, Dunn from Brockville as I recall, said that he would not use right handed components if there was no corresponding left handed ones.

Perhaps American parents, whose children show left handed tendencies, still encourage them to use their right hand??

[downhillslider]

i just wish there were more Left handed component options. Its so minimal. Its all super game improvement irons and barely any players clubs. I played the Dynacraft prophet irons and I liked them except for the black head. After a really short time I just couldnt stand looking down at a black head.

Last year, I had a conversation with Matt Maui who is Tom Wishon's righthand man about this subject. Matt's response was that the cost of re tooling for one or two forged lh models they offer is just no cost effective.

As a matter of fact, some of the 2012 LH models carry a sur charge !!

Matt said that increasing the cost across the board would be the only way to pay for the re tool and that it would be financial suicide to do just to accomadate a small percentage of lefties.

Have you compared the price of KZG vs. Wishon forged heads ? KZG has a few LH models as does Nakashima and Miura.

[Txxxxxxx]

Where does one find pricing on these products to begin with? I've had a look on the Wishon site and didn't see pricing and there are no prices listed on club fitter's sites either....

[jvincent]

You need to have an account to see pricing. Shoot me a PM if want numbers on some specific heads.

[Leftymoose]

Does wishon make LH?

[jvincent]

In some models, yes.

[Break68]

You can check here: http://wishongolf.com

[downhillslider]

Last year, I had a conversation with Matt Maui who is Tom Wishon's righthand man about this subject. Matt's response was that the cost of re tooling for one or two forged lh models they offer is just no cost effective.

As a matter of fact, some of the 2012 LH models carry a sur charge !!

Matt said that increasing the cost across the board would be the only way to pay for the re tool and that it would be financial suicide to do just to accomadate a small percentage of lefties.

Have you compared the price of KZG vs. Wishon forged heads ? KZG has a few LH models as does Nakashima and Miura.

Sorry, I should have elaborated a bit. Wishon has probably the most lh heads available except in the forged models. They have none. Hence the reference to the bold sentence. The others are somewhat more expensive.

[goliath]

What are some good lh options other than ksg? I currently play the LH KSG blades and although they are OK. I have lost loads of distance and frankly they look weird. The toe portion is really oddly shaped.

I think the perfect option would be the dynacraft prophet but they only come in the black For lefties, and I hatted the black head.

For lefties the options are so limited. I think next year I am going to try and get my hands on some i20 irons. They seem to be the best of all worlds.

[nokids]

how much would a complete set of Wishon cost with fitting included? Driver, 3 wood, 5 wood, 3-PW, 2 wedges, but leave out the putter b/c my Scotty works fine.

[jvincent]

Depends on which set of clubs. The forged heads will cost more than a cast model as an example.

Also, you shouldn't be playing 3i. You can barely hit it out of your shadow, move to a hybrid already.