Input Needed: Developing Portable Launch Monitor/Swing Analyzer for outdoors/indoors.

[readygolf]

We are in the process of developing a hardware/software application for aLaunch Monitor/Swing Analyzer that will be able to be used outdoors andindoors. Our group is comprised of engineers, golfers, executives andfinanciers and our goal is to create the most accurate, indoor/outdoor, golfimprovement aid, that’s affordable to all golfers. And we want to hear from theexperts here on the forum.

In order to get a better understanding of what consumer wants and arewilling to pay, we thought we would post a few questions to help with ourdirection with R&D. The goal is to manufacture a product below the $500 price point.

Basically, I am asking if you were going to create your own device how wouldyou design/build it.

Please respond here by posting your answers/comments.

Also please understand that at this time I can't reveal anything about the companyand or person(s) that are developing this technology. I hope you understand.

I have read a considerable amount of comments on what people would like tosee other technologies add/take away or I have seen many statements such as"if I were designing it I would have done it this way".

Well, here is your chance.

Measurement technology:

1. Which do you feel is the most accurate? EX) Optic, Radar, Camera-based, etc.

Measured vs. Calculated:

2. What elements of the ball or swing would need to be measured in order to provide the user with high confidence that the data that is captured and presented is highly accurate?

3. What elements of the ball or swing would be acceptable if they were only calculated and not measured?

Range or On-course Shot tracking:

4. Would use strictly on a range be enough or would being able to track your shots throughout a round be more beneficial?

Smart Phone Integration/Wireless:

5. How important would it be to be supported by a smart phone application?

6. Original plans call for a BlueTooth communication between the apparatus and a smart phone. Is this needed or is the better way?

Video or Not to Video:

7. Simply, would it be a much-needed feature or is it overkill to be able to capture video of your swing along with data of the ball/swing?

Sharing of Data:

8. Would there be a benefit to be able to upload/share the data with a teaching professional, whether they are local or distant, in order to have the data/video analyzed for game improvement.

Pricing:

9. Would you rather pay for the technology based on a one time price of $500-$700 or rather pay a much lower price then pay for a service based on asubscription term such as $19.99 per month?

Open Mic:
10. What other features would you like to see that would be of benefit to you for game improvement?

Thank you for your input.

[CPA]

1. outside radar -inside camera

2. all data measured-ball priority 3D swing data bonus like swingbyte but must work.

3. indoor Sim priority/ range second

4. Bluetooth necessary connection to computer etc

5. No -Video a big bonus

6. Yes-data and video

7. discounted onetime payment to purchase but sales would boom if it was pay by month.

Good luck- when can I pick it up?

[bubba22]

1.Camera or camera/radar combo
2.Ball and club both - need ball speed, azimuth, launch and spin. For club data need speed, path and face angle at least. Angle of attack a bonus.
3.Indoor for sure, range a bonus
4.Blutooth great, connection to iPhone/iPad or android the way to go
5.Video a nice touch
6.Data and video yes
7.one time payment agree, but would be willing to pay for yearly fee to play online etc.

I am in. When available?

[wbealsd]

Agree with the above, will add:

Data sharing with my golf pro is one of the reasons I purchased a GC2.

I would prefer to purchase, rather than pay a subscription.

Even though I have a GC2, I'd buy one simply because I'd be more comfortable taking a less expensive unit with me to the range and course more frequently (heck, I'd probably keep it my my bag)

[readygolf]

I have received several PM's on this subject and feel the need to clarifyour quest.

We have a prototype coming soon. R&D for value-added services is stillbeing formed so that is why I asked the questions I did.

Once thing I will have to clarify is that this is being manufactured withgame improvement in mind and not entertainment. However, I am fielding a lot ofquestions about "game play" and "online play". I may haveto look into that a little further to see if that is an element we shouldconsider adding. I have learned that a training aid should be just that andwhen you spin it to be a golf sim you loose credibility as ainstructional/improvement device.

When I said smart phone I should have also specified it would be for Droidas well Apple O/S.

This is being designed with the mindset that you will be able to take thisto the range, to your office, to your lesson with a pro and to be able to useit during a normal round so you can see and analyze your entire round.

Thank you for your efforts. I am really enjoying thecomments and feedback. I have always believed that a product should be designedbased on what golfers and users of technology such as what we are developing like and dislike. This waydevelopers, engineers, executives, golfers and financiers can work collectivelyand have the confidence that what is being designed will be appealing, usefuland valuable to the consumer golf market.

I also added numbers to our questions to make it easier to match your answers to.

[GMR]

I may be wrong, but I think that once you sit down to design this device you will quickly find that--while it is great to have a laundry list of features that would be great to have--if you truly intend on selling the device at the sub-$1,000 mark, and after accounting for R&D, SG&A, and your necessary margins, your budget will be severely limiting. That is, of course, the challenge of engineering.

What I would personally suggest is begin the other way. Figure out what features would be absolutely neccessary. To be honest, at $500, very little will be expected of your product, but accuracy will be the key. If you have a device that only captures ball data (no club, no video, nothing else), but can accurately measure (not calculate) ball speed, launch angle, side spin, total spin and starting path (i.e. degrees offset from aim line) from a standard un-marked ball and can use that information to calculate a reasonably accurate carry distance, in my opinion you would have a winner. If you could manage to stay at that price point and feed that data to software that could accurately render shot shape in a simulation environment, I would be surprised if anyone here would not buy one.

[goatbarn]

Exactly what GMR said.

Go for entire, accurate ball data first. If you can get this at a low price point, very accurately, you'll sell a ton.

Then down the road you can partner with an already established simulation software to team up and deliver a simulation experience.

I don't know of any somewhat serious golfer I know that wouldn't buy something for $500 that tells them measured ball data accurately, without the need of special marked balls, calibration, or cumbersome user control. I'm pretty sure the only affordable way to accomplish this is with cameras too, but what do I know.

And take a lesson from Zelocity....if you advertise things are measured....they sure better be! Better not see any random number lookup tables for spin numbers!

Good luck!

[northgolf]

1: Camera is most accurate

2 & 3: Must measure: Ball speed, Ball spin, Ball launch angle and azimuth - these are required to know the balls trajectory and I have yet to find any calculated results that accurately match reality. Optionally measure: club data - in order of priority: clubhead speed, clubhead face angle, clubhead angle of attack, clubhead path - if any of these is calculated, clearly highlight that by displaying calculated data in a different format than measured (different color font for example).

4: Range or indoor use. It would be objectionable to use such a device during a round due to its impact on speed of play and that inherit rudeness to all others on the course.

5: Smart phones are appropriate if you are planning on marketing a toy. Output needs to be able to be run to an overhead projector and that requires a PC or a laptop, unless you are thinking you are only going to give numbers and are not doing shot simulation.

6: Bluetooth - is a fine connectivity option.

7: Video - Video is relatively useless unless it is high speed (>200 frames per second). I think it is enough to offer a way to integrate video captured from another device into your swing database, but that is a nice to have and not a need to have.

8: sharing of data - is only useful if the pro can read the data (i.e. not a proprietary format, or you have a free data display program).

9: Pricing - One time purchase price has to be an option. I will not purchase a subscription service (what happens when you go out of business?).

Open mic: Bottom line - all ball data has to be complete and captured not calculated. Application must be able to run on a laptop or PC and should minimally display and store the collected data. Range shot simulation is a base requirement, integration with course simulation software can be an add on. Basicly, a big +1 to what GMR said.

[readygolf]

Very informative. Thank you all. We are all ears.

[CPA]

So readygolf you do appreciate we are the beta testers. We promise to give it back and not be too critical!.

[frogeye]

readygolf,
Good luck with the design. It makes total sense to include end user views/needs first. So far what data categories have you planned or will you be capturing. What timelines are you working towards? "Santa Claus is coming to town"......;-)

[Frans@france]

1. Which do you feel is the most accurate? EX) Optic, Radar, Camera-based, etc.

Depends on the resolution of the technology used and the sample rate. High speed camera but without the resolution even when using subpixel resolution will always have issues. Nice example is the Vector.

2. What elements of the ball or swing would need to be measured in order to provide the user with high confidence that the data that is captured and presented is highly accurate?

Problem with ball data is that EVERYONE can check the carry with the displayed carry values. So only full flight tracking will create high confidence and even then the fact that roll can not be measured will force you to explain in detail why that is. If you don't do full flight tracking but calculate carry be ready to educate your users on wind/humidity/etc

Club data, spin, spin axis tilt can not be check by the users so any data even fake will be accepted by most users. Best example was Zelocity.

3. What elements of the ball or swing would be acceptable if they were only calculated and not measured?

Only correct calculated values with an small error margin are acceptable. Wrong data can really screw swings up and you will lose users quick.

4. Would use strictly on a range be enough or would being able to track your shots throughout a round be more beneficial?

-- no opinion


5. How important would it be to be supported by a smart phone application?

-- I don't care but it seems a lot of people really like to have that.


6. Original plans call for a BlueTooth communication between the apparatus and a smart phone. Is this needed or is the better way?

--

7. Simply, would it be a much-needed feature or is it overkill to be able to capture video of your swing along with data of the ball/swing?

-- Only when you can sync it with the device and have the camera calibrated with the device.

8. Would there be a benefit to be able to upload/share the data with a teaching professional, whether they are local or distant, in order to have the data/video analyzed for game improvement.

-- I still wait for the first teacher that replies to the TM data I provide to each and every golfer that gets fitted.

9. Would you rather pay for the technology based on a one time price of $500-$700 or rather pay a much lower price then pay for a service based on asubscription term such as $19.99 per month?

-- I would never never go for subscription based technology. Starts at 19.99 and then goes up to 45.-- within months when the company has cash issues.

10. What other features would you like to see that would be of benefit to you for game improvement?

Full swing shaft tracking.

[Par2Pro]

The guys here have come up with most of the same points I would. As GMR put it - to get all of the features we want with the accuracy we need, I have a hard time understanding how something like that is acheivable for a $500 retail price point. But I would be jumping for joy if you do. Good luck and keep us posted!

Cheers,
Cory