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View Poll Results: Eliminate white stakes?

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  • Yes, I want to drop where my ball crossed ob

    37 48.68%
  • No, Leave rule as is

    39 51.32%
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Thread: White stakes

  1. #61
    England Golf Referee AAA is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcos View Post
    I sometimes dont hit a provisional and find out too late that my ball is lost or O.B. I usually reload at point of entry and hit 4 from there.
    I have never witnessed anyone walking back to the tee box on a busy golf course to hit a provisional. I would call it šthe walk of shamešif I had to do it. While I do respect the opinions here on the forum, I think this is the fair way to penalize myself.
    You can't walk back and hit a provisional. You can only take a provisional before you walk forwards to search for the original.
    If you go back the ball is not a provisional it is now the ball in play.

    A provisional ball is a ball provisionally in play subject to the original not being lost.

    If you have any doubt about the whereabouts of your original, always play a provisional - then there is no walk of shame.
    The shame is for not playing a provisional in the first place, not for losing your ball.

    Playing from the POE is not fair to you or anyone else. You could just as likely have played another (and another) duff stroke off the tee.
    POE and playing 4 is simply guaranteeing no further boobs.

  2. #62
    Golf Pig of the Year 09, 10, 11 Marcos is on a distinguished road Marcos's Avatar
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    While I realise AAA that you are correct, I have never played a competition golf match in my life and my wife and I are purely social players that enjoy the walk and camaraderie of fellow players. As I see it, I try my best at penalizing myself when necessary and thats about where I am comfortable with the rules. I fully understand your point of view but when it comes to golf,for me,its just a game. If ever i start competing, I will obey the rules of golf to the fullest of my capacities. I dont see this conversation going any further.

  3. #63
    England Golf Referee AAA is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcos View Post
    While I realise AAA that you are correct, I have never played a competition golf match in my life and my wife and I are purely social players that enjoy the walk and camaraderie of fellow players. As I see it, I try my best at penalizing myself when necessary and thats about where I am comfortable with the rules. I fully understand your point of view but when it comes to golf,for me,its just a game. If ever i start competing, I will obey the rules of golf to the fullest of my capacities. I dont see this conversation going any further.
    I always pleased when people go out and enjoy a round of social golf without necessarily playing by the rules. There is always the chance that they may enjoy it enough to take it up competitively.
    And that is the crux. This is a forum for discussing the Rules of Golf (RoG). There are so many ways of playing the game without conforming to the RoG that if everyone posted the details of how they don't conform, this site and others would be overwhelmed.
    Perhaps there should be a forum for 'The Rules I choose to ignore because I like it that way'.

    To be frank, when my wife and I play on our own or with friends at the weekend or on holiday, we agree before we play - 'Is this for real' or are we just out to enjoy hitting a ball and having a bit of practice.

  4. #64
    President's Cup Wknd_Warrior is on a distinguished road Wknd_Warrior's Avatar
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    Most annoying rule in golf, you have a great record breaking round going, hit a ball down the edge of the 17th, get out there and it's gone, must have bounced over the fence. There's no recourse for having an official score at that point other than walking back to the tee, which ain't happening if there's anyone else on the course. If it's a busy day IMO it's pretty rude and taking yourself too seriously. No ball in play cause you didn't hit a provisional? suck it up and take a 7 for your cap, an X for the round, better luck next time.

    Similarely there is a limit to how many provisionals someone should play. I'll hit a couple in a round, if I'm losing every second ball I hit then I give up, it's just pointless. Go look, If I can't find it boo hoo, I'll drop a ball just to finish the hole, card an "X" ...

    Playing by the rules is great, but there's also taking your game too seriously and ultimately just making everyone else wait on you while you card your "honest" 95.

  5. #65
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wknd_Warrior View Post
    Most annoying rule in golf, you have a great record breaking round going, hit a ball down the edge of the 17th, get out there and it's gone, must have bounced over the fence. There's no recourse for having an official score at that point other than walking back to the tee, which ain't happening if there's anyone else on the course. If it's a busy day IMO it's pretty rude and taking yourself too seriously. No ball in play cause you didn't hit a provisional? suck it up and take a 7 for your cap, an X for the round, better luck next time.

    Similarely there is a limit to how many provisionals someone should play. I'll hit a couple in a round, if I'm losing every second ball I hit then I give up, it's just pointless. Go look, If I can't find it boo hoo, I'll drop a ball just to finish the hole, card an "X" ...

    Playing by the rules is great, but there's also taking your game too seriously and ultimately just making everyone else wait on you while you card your "honest" 95.
    The problem was that you did not play a provisional. Why not? How long does it take? I carry a second ball in another pocket and I have been timed at 18 seconds to play a shot. Adding a few seconds to a round here and there when playing a provisional will not be noticeable overall and that time can be easily made up by walking a little faster for a hole or two, if need be.

    Yes, playing by the Rules IS great, but why should the rules be changed to accommodate golfers who refuse to do the right thing by the Rules?

  6. #66
    Golf Padawan nokids is on a distinguished road nokids's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solstrum View Post
    My skins game last week had 26 A class players, 14 of them hit it long, and I hit it as long as almost anyone in the city.
    Great stuff right here
    You only get out of something what you put into it

  7. #67
    Need a Caddy solstrum is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by nokids View Post
    Great stuff right here
    The statement was long players had an unfair advantage where I see it as the sprayer has the advantage and length means nothing. What part had you laughing your ass off?

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by solstrum View Post
    The statement was long players had an unfair advantage where I see it as the sprayer has the advantage and length means nothing. What part had you laughing your ass off?
    This part:

    Quote Originally Posted by solstrum View Post
    I hit it as long as almost anyone in the city.
    What does you outdriving 99.9% of the city have to do with it? Massive bragging there. Instead, you should have said I drive 400 yards, sure it's a passive brag but is actually relevant to the stakes discussion.

    Subtle difference imo
    You only get out of something what you put into it

  9. #69
    Need a Caddy solstrum is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by nokids View Post
    This part:



    What does you outdriving 99.9% of the city have to do with it? Massive bragging there. Instead, you should have said I drive 400 yards, sure it's a passive brag but is actually relevant to the stakes discussion.

    Subtle difference imo
    I would have said more like 98.4%

    The point BC Mist was making, was that long ball hitters had the advantage on the 5th hole. My rebuttal was that truthfully distance actually hurts a player on that hole and that long ball hitters can't see the ball land thus not knowing what hazard they are in. The reference to my distance was to prove that I spoke from experience and to show that the driver isn't hit there just because there were stakes there.

  10. #70
    Golf Padawan nokids is on a distinguished road nokids's Avatar
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    If Xtour ever hit the sweet spot on his driver that percentage would go down to 98.3
    You only get out of something what you put into it

  11. #71
    England Golf Referee AAA is on a distinguished road
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    Isn't there something called 'Course Management' which can be utilised if long hitters are prone to (mis)hit towards a known trouble area where they won't know the outcome? But perhaps taking a controlled iron or 3 wood is not macho enough.

  12. #72
    Need a Caddy solstrum is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by AAA View Post
    Isn't there something called 'Course Management' which can be utilised if long hitters are prone to (mis)hit towards a known trouble area where they won't know the outcome? But perhaps taking a controlled iron or 3 wood is not macho enough.
    Most holes that are in question at our place are played that way. On number 5 I generally hit a 5 iron. That was my point, the red stakes are not an aid to distance. Nobody plays to take a penalty!

  13. #73
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by solstrum View Post
    Most holes that are in question at our place are played that way. On number 5 I generally hit a 5 iron. That was my point, the red stakes are not an aid to distance. Nobody plays to take a penalty!
    But they(incorrectly placed red stakes) are an advantage to a "sprayer." And that should/would NOT happen if certain holes were marked by the Rules.

    It's interesting that some golfers can turn bush and rocks into a hazard, without a backhoe, but they can't turn water into wine.
    Last edited by BC MIST; 05-20-2013 at 06:57 PM.

  14. #74
    President's Cup Wknd_Warrior is on a distinguished road Wknd_Warrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC MIST View Post
    The problem was that you did not play a provisional. Why not?
    Because amateurs hitting provisinal after provisional juat cause they "might" not find that ball get's old fast and can slow the game down more than a couple seconds when they have to look for both of their balls on both sides of the fairway.

    Realistically the courses aren't full of scratch players that take 15 seconds over the ball. Anyhow the point of this conversation isn't how to become a good galfer and play by the letter of the law whilst adding only seconds to a round, it's more about the average Joe that isn't going to hit two off of every other tee (thank god) and sometimes get's out there and doesn't have a ball in play.

  15. #75
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wknd_Warrior View Post
    Because amateurs hitting provisinal after provisional juat cause they "might" not find that ball get's old fast and can slow the game down more than a couple seconds when they have to look for both of their balls on both sides of the fairway.

    Realistically the courses aren't full of scratch players that take 15 seconds over the ball. Anyhow the point of this conversation isn't how to become a good galfer and play by the letter of the law whilst adding only seconds to a round, it's more about the average Joe that isn't going to hit two off of every other tee (thank god) and sometimes get's out there and doesn't have a ball in play.
    I understand that golfers can do whatever they want and I do not have a problem with people dropping a ball and playing it from their chosen place, if that makes the game more enjoyable for them. But having a "career" game is not possible playing this way.

    BTW: Most "scratch" players take a minute and fifteen seconds to play a shot, not fifteen.

  16. #76
    President's Cup Wknd_Warrior is on a distinguished road Wknd_Warrior's Avatar
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    I htink all nokids is saying is that it would make life easier if you could drop at point of entry, it certaonly would for higher cappers, better golfers shouldn't really have an issue. I'm in the middle, on bad days I tire of hitting provisionals, so you risk carding a 7 for your cap, no biggy on a bad round.

    It's all good and well to consider a POE drop for white stakes, perhaps only as a local rule, but there's still the lost ball issue, especially the "middle of the fairway black hole" kind, so there still has to be some kind of ball in play requirement. Basically we're still SOL in many cases.

    The real solution would be the "throw down a ball" rule, where when the player, for whatever reason has no ball in play, can at the cost of two penalty strokes, place a ball at a reasonable location considering the probably result of his previous stroke. This is more or less what most mid cappers do now anyhow aat the cost of one stroke. I say make it cost two and let 'em throw it in the fairway . No one is going to lower their cap with holes like this on their card anyhow, the only net effect would be to keep the game moving along and provide more legitimate scores at the end of the day.

    Personally, if I have to take an "X", I still have a score to submit for handicap reasons which gives me some kind of indication of how I played that day, I can live with that.

  17. #77
    Founder Kilroy is on a distinguished road Kilroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wknd_Warrior View Post
    I htink all nokids is saying is that it would make life easier if you could drop at point of entry,
    Sure, life (golf) would be easier if we could do a lot of things like... improve your lie, use a toe wedge, take 'nicest' point of relief, even take mulligans. Most of us here don't do those things of course, but because the lost ball rule involves the walk of shame people ignore it or invent a substitute. Just take an X and move on if you don't want the walk. Keeps you moving and it's valid for your cap. No real score on the day, but inventing a rule does not give you a real score either so it works for me.
    Life dinnae come wit gimmies so yuv got nae chance o' gitt'n any from me.

  18. #78
    3 Iron Simonlap is on a distinguished road Simonlap's Avatar
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    In my opinion, it's pretty simple. You can chose to play golf in 2 ways. By the rules or not by the rules. Either way is a valid way to get around a golf course. If you are simply playing for fun, then the rules of golf do not have to apply to your game. If however you are playing in any sanctioned events, then play by the rules. And the rules of golf are plain and simple when it comes to OB and hazards.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by adanac View Post
    for some Rules history on the subject, look here..
    http://www.ruleshistory.com/lost.html#oob
    Interesting read. Thanks.

    If the current rule were to be changed (back) I'd go for loss of distance only. So if you ball goes OB you're hitting 2 off the tee. So you don't get a free pass on the drive.
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  20. #80
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlaidley View Post
    Interesting read. Thanks.

    If the current rule were to be changed (back) I'd go for loss of distance only. So if you ball goes OB you're hitting 2 off the tee. So you don't get a free pass on the drive.
    Would you also apply your suggestion to an unplayable ball, ball in a water hazard, a ball lost.... as stroke and distance is an option for those rules, as well? Drop a ball under 26-1b or c - 1 stroke penalty but under 26-1a - no penalty. Seems absurd, doesn't it?

  21. #81
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    When we play on the NCGT, if there is any suggestion there may be a ball OB then the provisional is almost always played, if not its an X if the tee box is occupied. I agree that scorecards/hole placards should show the OB limits so that it is evident on the tee box where you must avoid the stakes.
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  22. #82
    President's Cup Wknd_Warrior is on a distinguished road Wknd_Warrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilroy View Post
    Sure, life (golf) would be easier if we could do a lot of things like...
    really wasn't mplying to try and make the game easier to play, just easier to make decisions keep up the pace and end up with a valid number at the end of the day. Like you I've gotten used to only having a handicap score on some rounds.

  23. #83
    5 Iron adanac is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simonlap View Post
    In my opinion, it's pretty simple. You can chose to play golf in 2 ways. By the rules or not by the rules. Either way is a valid way to get around a golf course. If you are simply playing for fun, then the rules of golf do not have to apply to your game. If however you are playing in any sanctioned events, then play by the rules. And the rules of golf are plain and simple when it comes to OB and hazards.
    I think more players and competitions should be using the Stableford system (see Rule 32) - it's still stroke play but players are permitted to "blob" (score zero) on any hole on which they score, or are likely to score, net double bogey or more, ie, they can pick up. It's much less "punishing" since it doesn't involve grinding over a three footer for a 12, and is therefore quicker.

  24. #84
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by adanac View Post
    I think more players and competitions should be using the Stableford system (see Rule 32) - it's still stroke play but players are permitted to "blob" (score zero) on any hole on which they score, or are likely to score, net double bogey or more, ie, they can pick up. It's much less "punishing" since it doesn't involve grinding over a three footer for a 12, and is therefore quicker.
    Years ago I was involved in our Club's Senior Club Championship where, the organizer chose to use Stableford points to determine the winner. At the end of the first round I had scored 75 while a fellow competitor had scored 80 giving me a 5 shot lead going into the second round. BUT, my fellow competitor made two eights, did not have to count them and instead of the 5 stroke lead, I had a two point lead starting the second round. It is possible then, to have one player score better than another, and LOSE. This is fair to you?

    For casual rounds, using Stableford points would obviously speed up play for higher handicap players, but for competitions, it could lead to problems.

  25. #85
    Hall of Fame jeffc is on a distinguished road jeffc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC MIST View Post
    It is possible then, to have one player score better than another, and LOSE. This is fair to you?

    .
    Why not? It can happen in match play.
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  26. #86
    5 Iron adanac is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC MIST View Post
    Years ago I was involved in our Club's Senior Club Championship where, the organizer chose to use Stableford points to determine the winner. At the end of the first round I had scored 75 while a fellow competitor had scored 80 giving me a 5 shot lead going into the second round. BUT, my fellow competitor made two eights, did not have to count them and instead of the 5 stroke lead, I had a two point lead starting the second round. It is possible then, to have one player score better than another, and LOSE. This is fair to you?

    For casual rounds, using Stableford points would obviously speed up play for higher handicap players, but for competitions, it could lead to problems.
    Of course "scoring better" depends on the format of the competition. The total number of strokes is irrelevant if the format is Stableford - it's the number of points scored that determines who has scored better.

  27. #87
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffc View Post
    Why not? It can happen in match play.
    But in match play total strokes taken is not part of the format, only holes won. In my situation, we were qualifying for a couple of teams competitions as well as playing the senior club championship. The club championship should have been total strokes and the Stableford points should have been determined from the scores on each hole. Excluding a match play championship, have you ever heard of a player who could possibly win a stroke play Club Championship where his gross score was the second lowest? Neither have I.

    The organizer chose to do it this way because, as he stated to another player, "It makes it more even this way." (wink, wink)

    "First Place with a two round score of 145, BC MIST"
    "Second place with a two round score 144, jeffc." And you would you be OK with this?

  28. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC MIST View Post
    But in match play total strokes taken is not part of the format, only holes won. In my situation, we were qualifying for a couple of teams competitions as well as playing the senior club championship. The club championship should have been total strokes and the Stableford points should have been determined from the scores on each hole. Excluding a match play championship, have you ever heard of a player who could possibly win a stroke play Club Championship where his gross score was the second lowest? Neither have I.

    The organizer chose to do it this way because, as he stated to another player, "It makes it more even this way." (wink, wink)

    "First Place with a two round score of 145, BC MIST"
    "Second place with a two round score 144, jeffc." And you would you be OK with this?
    We can argue semantics all we want but in match play I can shoot 80 and you 85 and even if I am not getting strokes I can still lose to you. In Stableford you get points for your score on each hole, rather than your actual score so in effect it is another method of scoring and you are effectively not counting strokes you are counting points rendering the total score moot. Not really any different than match play IMHO.

    And for the record the PGA Tour has run events using the Modified Stableford Scoring method.
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  29. #89
    Posting Sensei justsomeguy is on a distinguished road
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    I'm not a big fan of Stableford scoring, mostly because tournament organizers can manipulate the scoring system to favour certain players.

    That being said, many clubs (including mine) use Stableford scoring for their inter-sectional qualifying tournaments and I have no problem with that. The actual inter-sectionals are match play format, but using a match-play format in qualifiers would not be practical. Stableford scoring is essentially a stroke-play format that makes allowances for "blow-up" holes similar to a match-play format, so it more closely resembles what the "actual" competition (i.e., the inter-sectionals) would be like.

    However, I agree with BC Mist that Stableford scoring is not appropriate for a Club Championship. This is a true competition, and in a true competition either you're competing against your opponent or you're competing against the course. If you're competing against the course, then the fewest number of strokes should win.
    Last edited by justsomeguy; 06-21-2015 at 11:04 PM.

  30. #90
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
    However, I agree with BC Mist that Stableford scoring is not appropriate for a Club Championship. This is a true competition, and in a true competition either you're competing against your opponent or you're competing against the course. If you're competing against the course, then the fewest number of strokes should win.
    A Club Championship played using stroke play gets your "true" champion, as you stated. A two round score of 144 beats 145 all of the time. A Stableford CC will likely get a true champion, but it is not guaranteed. A Club Championship played using match play will not get a "true" champion as the result of any match is significantly more unpredictable. One hot round by a normally weaker player and the better player is out wheras in stroke play over two or more rounds, the better, more consistent player, is more likely to win. The PGA Tour's match play tournament is predictably unpredictable which makes it more interesting to some.

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