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View Poll Results: Eliminate white stakes?

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  • Yes, I want to drop where my ball crossed ob

    37 48.68%
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    39 51.32%
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Thread: White stakes

  1. #31
    Need a Caddy solstrum is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bouche View Post
    Popler grove and Arnprior have some OB's that dont make sense
    Arnprior? The holes that have OB Are 1, 2, 3, 4, 16, 17 and 18. All Of which are on the very edge of the Property line! Just because
    there is bush left of the stakes, doesn't mean it's owned by the course!

  2. #32
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bouche View Post
    Popler grove and Arnprior have some OB's that dont make sense
    But all the red stakes do?

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC MIST View Post
    But all the red stakes do?
    Arnprior has red stakes on a few holes where bush work was done, tore up, and the area is not playable. This area is not OB but is not playable or has become Hazardous. In keeping with complaints of slow play throughout the valley, city and on this board, these holes that were under construction were deemed Red Staked. We have recently worked on several of these holes (this spring) and the bush is now playable and the RED Stakes removed. A couple of other holes (5, 6, 12, 13, 15) the stakes are along rough lines that actually remain wet most of the season and are hazard areas.

    Funny thing. I just returned from Orlando. Played 5 high end courses. They have deemed the entire bush line (both sides of every hole) to be RED STAKED. For two reasons and they tell you they did it for Speed of play and because there are things sleeping in the bush that need to remain sleeping!

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC MIST View Post
    But all the red stakes do?
    I love the big 18 (Legacy i think) at Greensmere but , I do think the New 9 has some areas that should be staked, it may have eliminated the five and a half hour round i played there last summer!

  5. #35
    Hall of Fame jeffc is on a distinguished road jeffc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solstrum View Post
    Arnprior has red stakes on a few holes where bush work was done, tore up, and the area is not playable. This area is not OB but is not playable or has become Hazardous. In keeping with complaints of slow play throughout the valley, city and on this board, these holes that were under construction were deemed Red Staked. We have recently worked on several of these holes (this spring) and the bush is now playable and the RED Stakes removed. A couple of other holes (5, 6, 12, 13, 15) the stakes are along rough lines that actually remain wet most of the season and are hazard areas.

    Funny thing. I just returned from Orlando. Played 5 high end courses. They have deemed the entire bush line (both sides of every hole) to be RED STAKED. For two reasons and they tell you they did it for Speed of play and because there are things sleeping in the bush that need to remain sleeping!
    Myrtle Beach is the same. Except for where houses are, there is very little OB anywhere, it's all red staked (for the above reasons)
    I got a fever. And the only prescription is more golf equipment.

  6. #36
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    When 90% of the golfing population can't break 100, You must not look at the playability of a course for the 10% but for the 90% Besides the A class shouldn't be in the hazard anyways! for example I bet in general, the scores are much lower on Premiere than Legacy and in saying that, when people shoot lower scores two things happen 1. Faster pace of play and 2. They are happy with their round (thus better experience and more likely to return!) Forest for the trees!

  7. #37
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 gbower is on a distinguished road
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    I know the way a lot of courses get marked are the way the course want it and often for pace of play. I go to Florida during the winter and most course just mark everything red which isn't right. Solstrum's comments about looking at playability actually has nothing to do with how a course is marked for hazards and as I'm a member at Greensmere I know that where the hazards are marked are actual hazards and where there are no red stakes it is an area that does not fall under the definition of a hazard and that is the way it should be. I know putting red stakes everywhere can help speed up play but how much time does it take to play a provisional ball. When the course is rated they look at actual hazards and if the red stakes are put in after the rating then the courses rating is way out. When Golf Canada goes in to a course to do a national championship the first thing they do is take out all the stakes and mark the course the way it should be regarding hazards. This will often tick the members off if the course leaves it the way GC marks it.
    The reason the scores are lower on Premiere at Greensmere compared to Legacy is that you don't have to hit the ball as straight to get away with a shot. Keep the ball within the 70 yards tree line to tree line on Legacy and you can score. It's a course for accuracy and not just pure distance if you're going to spray the ball.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by gbower View Post
    I know putting red stakes everywhere can help speed up play but how much time does it take to play a provisional ball.

    The reason the scores are lower on Premiere at Greensmere compared to Legacy is that you don't have to hit the ball as straight to get away with a shot. Keep the ball within the 70 yards tree line to tree line on Legacy and you can score. It's a course for accuracy and not just pure distance if you're going to spray the ball.
    Two points of interest in that reply.

    How long does it take to hit a provisional??.... A lot longer than dropping from point of entry. And you are assuming the provisional is now in play. If Sergio can hit 3 into a hazard I am sure a 40 plus handicapper can hit 3 into a bush. I've seen a 2 index stripe 3 balls OB on the first tee, took the group nearly 15 minutes JUST to tee off (And that group were guys who could play!). 70 yards when aiming down the middle only gives you 35 yards to miss left or right. And I would take the bet that there are areas not 70 yards wide at GMere (par 4, 2nd hole on one of the nines, long green water front right is not a 70 yard target!) btw great hole!


    And the lower scores are exactly my point. Wide open vs loosing a ball. I would bet most guys who shoot over 95 enjoy Premiere more! Where as a 10 or lower would enjoy Legacy. Golf is Hard. I watched a lady hit it 38 times on one hole (and put the head cover back on every time!) I think people need to look at the bigger picture. It's a business. It's about enjoyment, playability and pace of play, there is a reason tourist destinations are playing Red Stake everywhere.

    They should make ESA 1 stroke penalty instead of OB then a lot would be fixed. You could actually eliminate the search and rescue time of a top flight.

  9. #39
    Sand Wedge moonturko is on a distinguished road
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    On weekend rounds we'll either hit a provisional or drop at point of entry taking stroke and distance. So OB off the tee, you are hitting 4 off the drop.

  10. #40
    England Golf Referee AAA is on a distinguished road
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    I've seen a 2 index stripe 3 balls OB on the first tee,

    Perhaps he'd be +2 if he learnt to play a 3 or 5 wood or managed to engage brain first.

  11. #41
    England Golf Referee AAA is on a distinguished road
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    What is it about North America? You never see this argued about with such intensity in Europe. I have played, officiated at or rated hundreds of courses and the only 'illegal' red stakes I have seen were in Florida.

  12. #42
    Need a Caddy solstrum is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonturko View Post
    On weekend rounds we'll either hit a provisional or drop at point of entry taking stroke and distance. So OB off the tee, you are hitting 4 off the drop.
    So an assumed result of a provisional

    Most golfers golf for FUN and that's where the RULES guys have a hard time. When most golfers shoot between 90 and 120 the rules mean nothing. When 4 guys are out on a Saturday, drinking beer, smoking a cigar and flirting with the beer cart girls Stakes (red,white or yellow) mean nothing. Most guys are preferring the ball where ever it lies. Rules and Competition really truly only effect less than 10% of the population. A golf course does roughly 30,000 rounds a year, so if 90% can't break 100 that means roughly 27,000 rounds per golf course, per year where rules are not even in play!

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by AAA View Post
    I've seen a 2 index stripe 3 balls OB on the first tee,

    Perhaps he'd be +2 if he learnt to play a 3 or 5 wood or managed to engage brain first.
    Brain or swing cramp? You've never hit an unexpected hook?

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by AAA View Post
    What is it about North America? You never see this argued about with such intensity in Europe. I have played, officiated at or rated hundreds of courses and the only 'illegal' red stakes I have seen were in Florida.
    I failed to see the intensity. I saw a good conversation. Links style courses in Europe have no bush to stake!

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by solstrum View Post
    I failed to see the intensity. I saw a good conversation. Links style courses in Europe have no bush to stake!
    It's not just this forum.
    As a proportion of clubs, the number of links courses is very small but they compensate with blind dunes covered in very long grass.

  16. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by AAA View Post
    As a proportion of clubs, the number of links courses is very small.
    I was teasing!

    And with regards to the rules... It is a North American thing.. just like how Snooker has died and 8 ball and 9 ball (especially) has blossomed in North America. The Quicker the game the better.

  17. #47
    Hall of Fame spackler is on a distinguished road spackler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solstrum View Post
    Most golfers golf for FUN and that's where the RULES guys have a hard time. When most golfers shoot between 90 and 120 the rules mean nothing. When 4 guys are out on a Saturday, drinking beer, smoking a cigar and flirting with the beer cart girls Stakes (red,white or yellow) mean nothing. Most guys are preferring the ball where ever it lies. Rules and Competition really truly only effect less than 10% of the population. A golf course does roughly 30,000 rounds a year, so if 90% can't break 100 that means roughly 27,000 rounds per golf course, per year where rules are not even in play!
    Right, so if 90% of golfers (by your estimate) don't follow the rules, how does setting the correct stakes affect pace of play? Since hardly anyone (by your estimate) is taking notice of stakes anyway, why not mark the course correctly for the few who use them? It takes no extra effort and should not affect play. Seems a great disservice to those playing by the rules.

  18. #48
    Need a Caddy solstrum is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by spackler View Post
    Right, so if 90% of golfers (by your estimate) don't follow the rules, how does setting the correct stakes affect pace of play? Since hardly anyone (by your estimate) is taking notice of stakes anyway, why not mark the course correctly for the few who use them? It takes no extra effort and should not affect play. Seems a great disservice to those playing by the rules.
    Please don't be naive. Do you think I blindly threw numbers against a wall? A paid subscription to NGF the National Golf Foundation which represents the United States Golf Industry and studies the just over 26 million golfers in the US combined with NAGA National Allied Golf Association which studies the Canadian Golf Content will show you that the percentage of golfers who can't break 100 is actually at 91.6%. NOT MY ESTIMATES.

    They will also show, in studies (one released as recently as last week) that of those who do play a mere 5% keep accurate scores and try to play by the rules AS THEY KNOW THEM. Key words. Because even BCMist and G.Bower don't know All Of the Rules. They are getting there though.

    And a great disservice? Over react much?

    As I said golf is hard. But more so golf is a business. Courses that are resort courses need the players who visit to have two things. Fun and a fast round. Lost balls, stroke and distance and high scores don't add up to either.

    And where a bush is out of control, overgrown, wet, unplayable and budget doesn't allow to quickly repair a red stake does two things. It penalizes a golfer and allows for continued forward motion in a game that is meant to be enjoyed.

    If you take the time to research either of the associations I mention you will quickly see that it's not just Florida that red stakes but is actually an overwhelming majority that is pushing for this.

    My estimate my ass!

  19. #49
    England Golf Referee AAA is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by solstrum View Post
    I was teasing!

    And with regards to the rules... It is a North American thing.. just like how Snooker has died and 8 ball and 9 ball (especially) has blossomed in North America. The Quicker the game the better.
    Thanks. I did realise that but just making sure that everyone didn't think the whole UK was by the sea and covered in sand.

    What puzzles me a bit is that a lot of the 'lateral hazard' or 'drop at POE' proponents want to play under the same conditions as the pros in other circumstances. ie off the very back tees.

  20. #50
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 gbower is on a distinguished road
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    I still say that the courses should be marked by the rules especially if they ever run a tournament and most have club championships and other legitimate tournaments (scrambles not included) that should be run by the rules of golf. No matter how the course is marked the players of flog will play the way they want so why not have it done properly.

  21. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by gbower View Post
    I still say that the courses should be marked by the rules especially if they ever run a tournament and most have club championships and other legitimate tournaments (scrambles not included) that should be run by the rules of golf. No matter how the course is marked the players of flog will play the way they want so why not have it done properly.
    I can't argue that. However, I would be hard pressed to find a course that is marked to the rule and even harder to find an event that is played 100% by the rule.

    A hazard being marked by stakes is a fail for a tournament. Should be a painted solid line. Stakes get moved and may not be in the same place for the next player.

    And, I bet the lost ball in hazard rule is broken every time! Because the rule now basically states you must find it in the hazard or see it 100% enter the hazard. As soon as someone looks across the hazard, short of it or beside it they are creating doubt that it is in the hazard and it could be a lost ball. I'm thinking on 18 at Mountain creek, hit a ball over the hill, don't find it, play it from the 2nd pond. But do we really know its in the pond? Nope.

    That's the problem with rules.. interpretation, perspective and reality. Where did Tigers ball cross?

  22. #52
    Need a Caddy solstrum is on a distinguished road
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    last one before I go play... next time you play, watch your foursome on the greens. Watch how they mark their balls. Same every time? Watch them fix ball marks, or were they really ball marks? Then... Call them!

  23. #53
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by solstrum View Post
    I love the big 18 (Legacy i think) at Greensmere but , I do think the New 9 has some areas that should be staked, it may have eliminated the five and a half hour round i played there last summer!
    Having personally placed or replaced most, if not all of the stakes on both of our courses, I marked all hazards with red or yellow stakes. Areas that were not hazards were not marked because you are not supposed to. If your round took 5.5 hours it was because of bad play and slow players, not because the course not marked with red stakes.

    Sadly, several other area courses show contempt for Rules of Golf by installing red stakes on areas that are NOT hazards. Decision 33-8/35 clearly explains that this is against the Rules. The obvious excuse for this phenomenon is that it "speeds up play," which is nothing more than a smoke screen to ignore tackling the real cause of slow play. Slow play is NOT caused by the lack of bogus red staked areas, but is caused by players playing slowly, (brilliant) greens that are too fast, unnecessary pre-shot routines taught by pros and the Bob Rotella bs, not being ready to play, marking scores at the tee before teeing off, wagering, lining up the line on the ball to the target, imitating the pros on TV and the true list goes on. Change that mindset and round time will be reduced by 30 minutes or more. My early years of the Tunis,/Amateur, Kent saw rounds played in under 4 hours. Now, it's 5+ hours although this year with the group pace of play in effect, it will be a lot less, OR penalties will be given.

    Red staking a bush lined course simply means that a long hitter suffers minimal penalty for an errant shot, giving them an unfair advantage over one who can control the placement of the ball. Take Arnprior #5. An excellently designed, "risk/reward" hole. But place red stakes on both sides of the hole and the risk is gone. I am obviously biased, but when I finish a round I want my score to be a reflection of how I played and not one that is deflated by not punishing me for a lousy shot.

    Golf Canada does not have any course marking police so courses are ultimately going to mark areas that are not hazards, as "hazards." It's not right and cheapens the game, and those of us who object have only one choice and that is to play under 27-1.

    Quote Originally Posted by solstrum View Post
    They should make ESA 1 stroke penalty instead of OB then a lot would be fixed. You could actually eliminate the search and rescue time of a top flight.
    Depending on the status of the area, ESA's may be marked as water hazards, (1 penalty stroke) grounds under repair, or as out of bounds.(1 penalty stroke) Generally, they are marked as hazards, because that's what the most of them actually are, by definition. Water Hazard. A “water hazard’’ is any sea, lake, pond, river, ditch, surface drainage ditch or other open water course (whether or not containing water) and anything of a similar nature on the course. All ground and water within the margin of a water hazard are part of the water hazard.

  24. #54
    England Golf Referee AAA is on a distinguished road
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  25. #55
    Posting Sensei justsomeguy is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC MIST View Post
    Red staking a bush lined course simply means that a long hitter suffers minimal penalty for an errant shot, giving them an unfair advantage over one who can control the placement of the ball. Take Arnprior #5. An excellently designed, "risk/reward" hole. But place red stakes on both sides of the hole and the risk is gone. I am obviously biased, but when I finish a round I want my score to be a reflection of how I played and not one that is deflated by not punishing me for a lousy shot.
    First of all, I'm not sure I would classify 1-stroke as a "minimal penalty". It is the prescribed punishment for all other "errant shots" and most other rules violations. However, I would suggest that the difference between a 1-stroke penalty and "stroke PLUS distance" is NOT minimal. In stroke play its a HUGE difference - a difference that should be substantiated by the severity of the infraction.

    Secondly, the substantiation usually offered for the "stroke PLUS distance" penalty -one that you have also offered - is that a ball hit OB is a really, really lousy shot. Its such a bad shot that it should be severely punished. And perhaps on some holes at some courses it really is a terrible shot. But I can think of numerous examples where the difference between the fairway/green and OB is 10 yards or less. Now that's a missed shot - but it hardly deserves the wrath of GOLF!

    Finally, its one thing when 90% of golfers ignore the rule - most of them don't follow the rules anyway. But when the majority of golf courses ignore it too, then you can't just stick your head in the sand and say that there is no problem. Obviously there's a problem - and if the ruling bodies simply ignore it then golf courses are going to find their own solutions. Perhaps POE + 2 strokes is the compromise that everyone can live with...

    BTW, I don't really buy the "pace of play" argument at all. Hitting a provisional takes a minimal amount of time - a lot less than looking in the woods for a ball that you will never play anyway. I think it is simply an excuse to minimize the damage.

    AAA, I think the difference between attitudes in Europe and North America may have to do with the fact that 99% of golf in North America is stroke play, and the "stroke + distance" penalty is substantially greater in stroke play. In match play you're probably going to lose that hole regardless of whether it is 1-stroke or stroke-plus-distance - in any event the damage has been minimized to one hole.

  26. #56
    Need a Caddy solstrum is on a distinguished road
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    BCMIST - slow play was not because of slow players and Bob Rotella. Most golfers don't know who Nevada Bob is let alone Bob Rotella. Thinking like an a class again. The guys we watched were hitting 2 or 3 balls off each tee trying to hit the fairway. They were on carts and moved quickly. Still took too long (and we didn't get through because there were more in front of them and not a Marshall around)

    To all- Stop saying a provisional takes a minute to hit!!! It's the looking for 10 minutes to hopefully find the first ball so that they are hitting 2 not 4! They search and search trying to save shots.

    I think #5 is a terrible example and shows that short hitters are truly biased . #5 right now is wet (like 6 inches wet) mud, moss and water both sides. And usually for most of the season. It's not casual water. It's marsh. However that's not my point. My skins game last week had 26 A class players, 14 of them hit it long, and I hit it as long as almost anyone in the city. And Nobody hit driver. None of us. Wheres the advantage?

    If I hit driver on 5 I have to take it over the corner ( well over the corner) to the point that I can't see the ball land. If I get around the corner and there is no ball did I fly the fairway into the left hazard or did I catch a tree and stay in the right hazard? I can't confirm. Lost ball. Back to the tee. No advantage.

    Last thought. A question. You play by the rules and quote them and tell us how they are wrong. Senior field day at the AGC. You hit it in the hazard on 5, you telling me you hit 3 from the tee?

  27. #57
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    The point of the last several posts concerns marking of areas that are not water hazards, as water hazards. Having played your course today, there were areas that were marked perfectly, areas that were not hazards that were lined with red stakes, and narrow ditches that were lined on only one side with red stakes, meaning that a ball that crossed the ditch and went into the bush by 40 yards, was in a "hazard" by the markings, but not in the hazard by the Rules. Regardless of any rationalizations, some of the markings are against the Rules, scores could be subsequently deflated for those who hit it offline, handicaps become inaccurate, and perhaps most importantly, the results of the qualifying for all of your teams and of the club championships, could be affected. The good news is that few people would likely realize this.

    When we set up a course for an OVGA tournament, or when I play in same, I/we have to accept the course as we find it. As Gerry indicated above, if a major amateur tournament was being held there, all the red stakes would be pulled out, and only the real, versus imaginary, hazards, would be marked. For an OVGA Field Day, it would take the better part of a day to do the above and I am sure, with the objection of your club committee. In recent years, a few clubs have allowed us to move some stakes before the tournament to ensure fair play, and one last year, asked us how to correctly mark areas that were not marked properly, and our suggested markings are now permanent. Some clubs want to know how to mark their course correctly and have invited officials out to perform this task for them, while others are not interested in this information. We understand and respect the wishes of both.

    BTW: Your superintendent and others involved have done an amazing job in turning your course's overall playability around. The greens are as smooth, fast and true as any that I have putted on in recent years. I hope that you have signed your super to a long term contract as you don't want another club to gobble him up.
    I was only in 1 "hazard" that wasn't a hazard, and made par, so I guess it's really not much of a problem after all.

  28. #58
    Need a Caddy solstrum is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC MIST View Post
    BTW: Your superintendent and others involved have done an amazing job in turning your course's overall playability around. The greens are as smooth, fast and true as any that I have putted on in recent years. I hope that you have signed your super to a long term contract as you don't want another club to gobble him up.
    I was only in 1 "hazard" that wasn't a hazard, and made par, so I guess it's really not much of a problem after all.
    just locked up for 4 years. And will be negotiating at the 2 year mark! He really is one of the best and not just in this area. The top 2 schools for turf are Penn State and Ohio State and he has both.

    The AGC is quickly becoming a top tier course again. Stakes and all!

  29. #59
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by solstrum View Post
    just locked up for 4 years. And will be negotiating at the 2 year mark! He really is one of the best and not just in this area. The top 2 schools for turf are Penn State and Ohio State and he has both.

    The AGC is quickly becoming a top tier course again. Stakes and all!
    If you hit it down the middle, the stakes will never be an issue.

  30. #60
    Golf Pig of the Year 09, 10, 11 Marcos is on a distinguished road Marcos's Avatar
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    I sometimes dont hit a provisional and find out too late that my ball is lost or O.B. I usually reload at point of entry and hit 4 from there.
    I have never witnessed anyone walking back to the tee box on a busy golf course to hit a provisional. I would call it ¨the walk of shame¨if I had to do it. While I do respect the opinions here on the forum, I think this is the fair way to penalize myself.

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