Transsexuals now allowed to play in the women's British Open

[Kilroy]

World Golf Magazine
In the most unique golf news of the week, transsexuals will now be allowed to play in the women's British Open. LPGA commissioner Ty Votaw also says that his tour is considering a rule change that would admit transsexual competitors, following the Olympics' lead.

Just plain stupid IMHO.

[EDSGOLF]

Just plain stupid IMHO.

Meaning??? What is your view?

[Kilroy]

My view is simply that the "born a woman" clause that currently exists on the LPGA makes sense and this does not. My opinion has nothing to do with the rights of an individual doing as they please, it is about an even playing field on a professional tour. I don't feel it is a terribly important or upsetting development, it just doesn't seem right.

It is likely that this stems from a fear of litigation. Letting transexuals play is easier than fighting them in court. Look what happened with Casey Martin and his power cart. Someting they'd want to avoid.

[leftylucas]

If they let women play on some of the men's tour events then the inverse seems logical to them. Rene Richards already did the same in the tennis world although Serena Williams could kick her *****. Ain't litigation wonderful. Get ready for one of those long getting way off topic threads Dan, but remember you started it. In the 70s, steroids made german women "men", I saw a TV special and one of the competitors took so many hormones, she is now a he. OUCH!!!

[davevandyk]

i totally agree with you Dan. I also think that the PGA tour should incorporate a "born male" clause in the PGA tour. Although it seems to get the fans excited when Wie missed the cut by one, there are players actually playing for their livelyhood. That's like someone taking over your job for a week, leaving you to earn the money that you would have earned, somewhere else. I only acceptable thing about the Wie situation, is that it is the first full field event of the year, so its not really grind time for players. However, for those players who can get in the field and make $100,000. It takes a lot of their shoulders knowing they are like 1/6 of the way there instead of $0.

[Kilroy]

Get ready for one of those long getting way off topic threads Dan, but remember you started it.

I think it can be discussed without anger. We'll see.

[Kilroy]

the PGA tour should incorporate a "born male" clause

I see that somewhat differently. Women playing from the same tees as the men in an event is not an advantage to the woman. If a woman can play straight up in a field of men, then she has a lot of game.


Having a man play against a field of women could be a distinct advantage despite his surgical modification and hormone injections.

[Colby]

i totally agree with you Dan. I also think that the PGA tour should incorporate a "born male" clause in the PGA tour. Although it seems to get the fans excited when Wie missed the cut by one, there are players actually playing for their livelyhood. That's like someone taking over your job for a week, leaving you to earn the money that you would have earned, somewhere else. I only acceptable thing about the Wie situation, is that it is the first full field event of the year, so its not really grind time for players. However, for those players who can get in the field and make $100,000. It takes a lot of their shoulders knowing they are like 1/6 of the way there instead of $0.

I disagree with the "male only" clause for the PGA. The PGA is meant for the best golfers available, and those are the ones I want to see, no matter if they are male, female, or from outer space. Wie's participation in an event in her home town/state, is a marketing ploy and uses a sponsor's exemption spot. Just because she is female it gets more attention. There are sponsor's exemptions every week that go to people who have no chance of making the cut, amateurs, local pros, all of that is a marketing ploy to get the local area out to support the tournament. It's part of the business.

Does it hurt people who are trying to make some money to continue on tour? Absolutely. On the other hand, without the sponsors making some money off of the event, and their sponsor exemptions help towards this, there wouldn't be sponsors to put up the big money that is expected. No sponsors, no tour.

Back to my original thought. I want to see the best golfers earn their way onto the tour. If in 10 years or so, Wie can finish Q School, or make her way like Tiger did by winning enough money on sponsor's exemptions, I have no issue with he playing on the PGA Tour. With or without women playing on the PGA Tour, the Tour will continue. The other way around, by allowing men to play in LPGA events, will kill that tour, for as Annika found out, it's not easy to play at the level the men play at, and men would dominate the tour and the women would lose out.

[EDSGOLF]

What does LPGA stand for: "Ladies Professional Golf Association." If the transexual is considered a "lady" by law/society, etc, then she has the right to play and only ladies should play on the LPGA, will it be fair, maybe not. The PGA stands for "Professional Golf Association" and does not make a distinction between male or female (except in their ads "These GUYS are good" haha), therefore the PGA should be open to any human being. Hopefully I did not type all of this to be eventually deleted or closed

[Hank Hill]

I wonder if when you change from a man to a woman, your preshot thoughts change from "156 yard to the center of the green, pin at the back left.....I wonder where the beer cart is" to "132 yards to the green, need to carry that pond.....hmmm does my butt look big in these pants".

[Colby]

I wonder if when you change from a man to a woman, your preshot thoughts change from "156 yard to the center of the green, pin at the back left.....I wonder where the beer cart is" to "132 yards to the green, need to carry that pond.....hmmm does my butt look big in these pants".

hahahaha!

[Andru]

My view is simply that the "born a woman" clause that currently exists on the LPGA makes sense and this does not. My opinion has nothing to do with the rights of an individual doing as they please, it is about an even playing field on a professional tour. I don't feel it is a terribly important or upsetting development, it just doesn't seem right.

It is likely that this stems from a fear of litigation. Letting transexuals play is easier than fighting them in court. Look what happened with Casey Martin and his power cart. Someting they'd want to avoid.

I'm not 100% sure of the medical facts regarding post-opt transexuals but I'm pretty sure the advantage of being a man is removed by the hormone therapy and the operation. Essentially, they become women. In every sense.

The imbalance on the plaing field? I don't know enough to have an opinion yet. I'll have to do more research. If it's discovered there is no advantage I'll have to support the move of allwoing them, if there is an advantage. Then I agree with you. It's not fair.

[dbleber]

Ah the politically correct society......gotta love it! I agree with past posters that the PGA should be for the best golfers no matter of sex but the LPGA is for women and if you are a man that gets changed to a women you still have the physical structure and strength of a man. Imagine if some of the long hitters on tour got a sex change, think of the advantage they would have...boy would John Daly make an ugly women! Now that might get the TV ratings up!
Denny

[GarthM]

boy would John Daly make an ugly women! Now that might get the TV ratings up!
Denny

...or my lunch.....

[Colby]

Ah the politically correct society......gotta love it! I agree with past posters that the PGA should be for the best golfers no matter of sex but the LPGA is for women and if you are a man that gets changed to a women you still have the physical structure and strength of a man. Imagine if some of the long hitters on tour got a sex change, think of the advantage they would have...boy would John Daly make an ugly women! Now that might get the TV ratings up!
Denny

Laura Davies?!?...

[Golfpeasant]

I think it can be discussed without anger. We'll see.

I don't have a problem with it. A person is not going to change their sex JUST to compete, but they might have already changed and said, hey I like this sport. What does it matter, one person versus hundreds...her/his game still not be good enough to win, so who cares?

Now if Tiger suddenly got a sex change just to set records on both tours, I'd think it was odd....

[Andru]

Ah the politically correct society......gotta love it! I agree with past posters that the PGA should be for the best golfers no matter of sex but the LPGA is for women and if you are a man that gets changed to a women you still have the physical structure and strength of a man. Imagine if some of the long hitters on tour got a sex change, think of the advantage they would have...boy would John Daly make an ugly women! Now that might get the TV ratings up!
Denny

This has nothing to do with being politically correct. This is trying determine if there is indeed a physical advantage using facts. If you have facts to prove that Transexuals maintain the level of strength and speed after hormone treatments and the operation. Then post them. Until then, I stand by my statement, if there's no advantage. Then what's the problem? If there is an advantage. Then no they should have to compete against the best in the world.

[Sakuraba]

In fact I believe there is a physiological advantage for men in certain sports. I'm not talking about muscle mass or strength, but the allignment of the joints. The male pelvis and shoulder and elbow joints are alligned differently than those of the female of the species. The male skeleton, through generations of evolution, is better suited to certian physical motions, such as throwing, than the female skeleton. This statement was made by a doctor interviewed on ctv's show "Daily Planet" last month, I believe, and the scientist was being asked the same question regarding trans-gender athletes.
I'm not sure it changes the debate that much. I mean there are people out there who have both genders.... What league do they get to play in?

[Kilroy]

if there's no advantage. Then what's the problem?

I agree with that,

If you have facts ...Then post them.

I think the burden of proof would reside with proving that a transgender (male to female) did not have an advantage in competition against females. So please, if you have such facts please post them.

The fact that Mianne Bagger is not competitive can only make things more complicated. It adds credence to the argument that there is no advantage, but as we know, few of us men could compete against the ladies on the LPGA tour. It will matter a lot if a transgender golfer gets on the tour and starts breaking records in women's golf.

[Andru]

I agree with that,
I think the burden of proof would reside with proving that a transgender (male to female) did not have an advantage in competition against females. So please, if you have such facts please post them.

I don't have facts either way, but I'm not stating categorically that Female to Male Transexual people do or do not have an advantage.

I agree if you're going to allow someone to compete you should have some evidence to support that women who are born as women are not being put at a disadvantage to there transexual counter parts. Maybe they have done there research. Though I can't imagine they have long term studies of transsexual athletic performance.

[dbleber]

This has nothing to do with being politically correct. This is trying determine if there is indeed a physical advantage using facts. If you have facts to prove that Transexuals maintain the level of strength and speed after hormone treatments and the operation. Then post them. Until then, I stand by my statement, if there's no advantage. Then what's the problem? If there is an advantage. Then no they should have to compete against the best in the world.

I don't think that you have to be a rocket scientists to figure out that the majority of men are physically stronger then women. if you need your "facts" on that, go to your local doctor. Being taller and stronger is an advantage because LPGA courses are shorter and if you can crack the ball 300+ then you are going to have an advantage.

It seems that you like to argue about the simplest most obvious things, if you think that women are naturally stronger then men, and that men playing on the LPGA sex change or not would not have an advantage, thats fine but I'm not going to debate with you since it's pretty much common sense.
Denny

[Golfpeasant]

it's pretty much common sense.
Denny

One, you're assuming a man is just putting on a dress and golfing. Transexuals often go through a long term hormone injection period to actually get their body acting as much like a females as possible. If this has an impact on physical abilities, then your point is not valid.

Two, looking at Michelle Wie, who is thin and tall, and Mike Weir, who is short and light, I wouldn't say muscle mass is the determining factor for golf.

Three, until you get a whole bunch of comparisons charted, no one can say for sure, so why bother saying it.

[davevandyk]

i believe that physical aspects have no bearing on the choice of who plays on what tour. I simply believe that men play on the men's tour, women play on the women's tour. I don't want to sound sexist or anything but that is what the tour were set up for. Michelle Wie is an exceptional golfer but she hasn't made the cut in any male golf tour i believe? Not PGA, Nationwide or even Canadian Tour. That being said, she is what was the main attraction for crowds at the Sony Open, not Ernie Els, so i can see why sponsors want to give her a spot. Simply put, she puts butts in the seats. But then again, giving Michael Jordan or Barry Bonds a spot in the field would create a much larger buzz, and they are just as unlikely to make the cut. She did come close last year, but she was sinking hail mary's from 50 and 60 feet just to come close to the cut number. Then again, its just my 2 cents

[Kilroy]

until you get a whole bunch of comparisons charted

Good point. I wonder what studies have been done. I'd be surprised if it turned out that stats for transgender female athletes were in the same precentiles as those "born women", but I suppose it's possible. Not likely, but possible.

[BC MIST]

I don't think that you have to be a rocket scientists to figure out that the majority of men are physically stronger then women. if you need your "facts" on that, go to your local doctor. Being taller and stronger is an advantage because LPGA courses are shorter and if you can crack the ball 300+ then you are going to have an advantage.

It seems that you like to argue about the simplest most obvious things, if you think that women are naturally stronger then men, and that men playing on the LPGA sex change or not would not have an advantage, thats fine but I'm not going to debate with you since it's pretty much common sense.
Denny

Somewhere I read an article on Mianne Baggar which indicated that because of the hormonal changes that he went, that she is no stronger than the average athletic woman and therefore would have no strength advantage.

While Canadians in general at much more liberal that our American counterparts, there are European countries that are much more liberal than us. My guess is that the issue is less important to European players, than it is to North Americans. Let her play. She won't win, but I give her credit for pursuing the chance to play the game she loves at the level she feels that she is. She may not even qualify to take part in the ladies Open.

[Andru]

I don't think that you have to be a rocket scientists to figure out that the majority of men are physically stronger then women. if you need your "facts" on that, go to your local doctor. Being taller and stronger is an advantage because LPGA courses are shorter and if you can crack the ball 300+ then you are going to have an advantage.

It seems that you like to argue about the simplest most obvious things, if you think that women are naturally stronger then men, and that men playing on the LPGA sex change or not would not have an advantage, thats fine but I'm not going to debate with you since it's pretty much common sense.
Denny

You're right, You or I can't debate about the physical ability of Transexuals. Because we know nothing about it. Transexuals aren't men with implants. They're people who have gone through extensive hormone treatments to change their bodies. In the case of males to females. They are taking large amounts of female hormones. and they're bodies change. They stop growing facial hair, their testoterone levels drop and they begin to lose substantial muscle mass and strength ...... etc.

[dbleber]

I wasn't going to get into all this but since there seems to be so many experts I will. I work with a transexual who is in the process of getting the full sugery after her 1 full year of living as a woman. Now, yes they take hormones, yes they stop growing hair and they even lose the adams apple , grow breast and the voice changes. But let me tell you they are not a women. This inividual is 6'2" around 230 and I know first hand that she does not have the normal strength of the average women seeing the equipment she carries around at work. Secondly, hormones do not change the physical structure. Meaning bones and muscle mass, if it was there before it is still there after. Sure they can stop working out and go on diets to slim down but the natural mans structure is still there. Now assuming that I am one of the few who have witness the transformation first hand, I would say that gives me a more educated opinion on the matter. Let me tell you, if this person was a good golfer they would have a serious physical advantage over the average women. Now before someone says "what about a small man who is smaller then the average women" there are always exceptions.
Denny

[dbleber]

One, you're assuming a man is just putting on a dress and golfing. Transexuals often go through a long term hormone injection period to actually get their body acting as much like a females as possible. If this has an impact on physical abilities, then your point is not valid.

Two, looking at Michelle Wie, who is thin and tall, and Mike Weir, who is short and light, I wouldn't say muscle mass is the determining factor for golf.

Three, until you get a whole bunch of comparisons charted, no one can say for sure, so why bother saying it.

One I didn't assume anything

Two Mike Weir maybe short but you are assuming that height has something to do with muscle mass

Three Why did you bother saying anything?...Maybe because it is a forum where golf guys talk about things because they have nothing else to do.
Denny

[sensfan63]

One, you're assuming a man is just putting on a dress and golfing. Transexuals often go through a long term hormone injection period to actually get their body acting as much like a females as possible. If this has an impact on physical abilities, then your point is not valid.

Two, looking at Michelle Wie, who is thin and tall, and Mike Weir, who is short and light, I wouldn't say muscle mass is the determining factor for golf.

Three, until you get a whole bunch of comparisons charted, no one can say for sure, so why bother saying it.

That's a funny comparison between Wie and Weir...are you saying that Michelle Wie is stronger than Mike Weir??

I'll take Weir on the bench press for $100...

[broken27]

Well, if nothing else, I'm glad to see I'm not the only person who has a problem with this.

I believe homrone therapy would make you more of an affeminate (sp?) man, but you'd really have to go nuts on the dosage to make you an actual woman. I'd suggest that it might be easier for a woman to go towards a man just because it seems it's easier to get more aggressive than less.

As to the medical FACTS? Well, I don't know, but nobody will ever convince me that this is something that should fall into the category of "mainstream" rules or policy for a sporting league or tour. Individual cases, I don't care. But politically I think there has to be a line drawn somewhere to maintain the integrity of the field of competitors. Maybe at this point it might be cool to have a part-merger between Nationwide and LPGA for like 1/2 the events... Double the playing field size so that neither league loses players, and create a seperate purse for the event's overall leaders and incorporate handicaps.

Just my thought though. These people who fit "in between" tours could play in the "circus pro-Am" to qualify... (J/K J/K J/K J/K)

Dan