Ccam Review (GGS/GSA Club Track Camera)

[mjbcfc]

I’ve now had the Ccam Plus package for a few weeks now and I’m still a bit mixed in my opinion. Don’t get me wrong I’m very happy with my purchase and have no regrets however there are still some issues which have popped up which I hope can get smoothed out. Anyway hopefully the below review is helpful to anyone who reads it, also here is the link to the package I have to ensure those reading know what product I’m talking about: http://www.golfsimfactory.com/ClubCamSetup.html

As I’m sure everyone on this forum is aware the GGS/GSA systems are definitely not simple plug and play setups and this is something I found instantly when I first opened my box of goodies. No printed set of setup instructions were given however a link to the webpage cited above was given in order to assist with the setup of the product, this wasn’t exactly ideal however it was no problem really. The initial setting up of the system was pretty straightforward to be honest, mount the camera above the trigger mat with the halogen light adjacent to it however it did take me a long time to get the GSA Control Panel and software to recognise the camera. It was an embarrassingly simple fix which required an update of the driver and it’s even listed on the website however it’s not in the Ccam setup instructions, instead its located in the huge section entitled ‘Technical Help’ which lists loads of different issues and fixes for all GGS/GSA products.

With the camera properly working I set out to the virtual range to hit a few 7 irons however only 1 out of 5 was registering. I then spent the next few days tweaking and fine tuning the settings in the control panel to try and get it calibrated in a way that best suited the conditions established in my garage to ensure maximum number of registered shots. One big disadvantage of the system is that the ball sometimes launches when all you do is address the ball, this seems to happen really only when I use a driver or hybrid because the light reflecting off the shiny black head is sometimes registered as the white dot on the top of the club and can inadvertently register as a shot. To counter this I started reducing the shutter speed and camera gain however this would then sometimes result in the white dots not getting picked up during some faster shots. In the end I’ve somehow managed to find a happy medium and the use of the ‘min club head speed’ setting greatly helps as I can tell the system to ignore any club readings below 4MPH which has further reduced the number of mislaunches. I still however play a round with unlimited mulligan’s so that a mislaunch doesn’t ruin my round.

Putting takes a bit of getting used to with the Ccam, I have to make sure that my head doesn’t block the camera and also I have to address the ball with the putter behind the trigger sensor about 100mm behind the ball. This is because the putter has different settings in the CP to normal shots and so there is no ‘min club head speed’ setting because obviously little tap ins and short putts will be really slow so any minimum club head speed would likely be more of a hindrance than a help. Also chipping isn't ideal without the Vcam and Hcam because I prefer to hit my chips lower (bump and run) however with just the Ccam all shots are set to the clubs default launch angle so all my chips are quite high with minimal roll which isn't ideal for me and my game.


The GSA software is brilliant, the courses I’ve played so far have been awesome and yet I’ve barely scratched the surface (doubt I’ll ever get round to playing all 85 courses)! I generally shoot between 93-103 at my local course and that is exactly what I’ve been doing on the sim so I’m very happy with the accuracy however I’m still a bit concerned with some of the distances for some clubs and especially my recorded club head speeds. I would expect the Ccam to give extremely accurate club head speeds however they seem very slow, for example my 7 iron is showing as low as 55-60 MPH and although I don;t know my actual speed it is very low for someone in my bracket (low 20 handicapper, male, aged 23). I fear that Martin is fully aware of this as he has set the default smash factors of the clubs insanely high which I believe is to compensate for this shortcoming, here are the default smash factors for all the clubs:

SW=1.168
PW=1.252
9i=1.529
8i=1.570
7i=1.661
6i=1.651
5i=1.718
3i=1.857
Driver=2.000

Considering the PGA Tour average for a driver is 1.48 and the highest on tour is roughly 1.56 (Bubba Watson I believe?) then the value of 2.000 is absolutely absurd! I emailed Martin 2 weeks ago about this and a few other little niggles but no reply yet however I did state that they weren’t high priority and I think he’s been very busy on the LX development. Still thought it’s very concerning that all the evidence points to the fact that the Ccam is very poor at measuring club head speed because my distances are roughly there or there abouts even with the grossly exaggerated smash factors therefore club head speed is surely way off!
I also don’t like the difference in smash between the PW and 9i, I practiced on the 18th at Congressional (one of my fave courses on the sim) and tried some approaches from 110 yards (downhill as I’m sure many of you will know) and found the PW would come up short and 9i would nearly roll off the back, it felt more like 2 or 3 clubs difference which is understandable when you look at the above smash factors.

On to the positives, the taping of the reflective dots on top of the clubs is not a bother at all as I’ve played a few rounds since taping them out in the real world and they have not interfered or come loose at all (in fact its serving as a nice relaxing and calming effect as when I see the 2 dots I feel relaxed just as I do in the garage haha). The biggest and best positive however is this: after only a few weeks the sim has vastly improved my game! This was the main reason I purchased the product and I am definitely happy with the progress, this sounds like a bit of cheesy shopping channel bullsh$t however I must point out that it only helped me because I’m a mid-low 20’s handicapper, I can’t imagine it’ll do much good to those in the low teens or single digits! My shot on the course is usually a fade therefore the bad shots become slices and with the driver this can result in some very crazy slices (I’ve hit a few where the ball will land and run at an almost 90 degree angle to the target line therefore almost horizontal across the next fairway haha). I took many lessons and all the pros kept going on about my out-to-in swing path causing my slice however after just 5 mins with the sim it was abundantly clear that I wasn’t properly releasing the club head resulting in some very open club heads (10 to 20 degrees) with minimal out-to-in (0 to 5 degrees).

I’ve therefore been working on this on the sim and have been noticing some more consistent and straighter ball flights however I was still sceptical about my real game however I played twice last week whilst on holiday and I shot 91 followed by my career best of 85! I’ve only ever broke 90 twice and they were both 89 at my local course par 68, the course we played on holiday was a par 70, I also shot my lowest ever 9 holes of 5 over (40)!!! I was hitting the ball a lot straighter and my bad shots with a driver were nothing more than big fades that flew into the rough rather dying right into the trees or next fairway. I did putt very well but I don’t really think is down to the sim however I did feel a lot more confident standing over a putt ‘in real life’ where I could properly see the break and ‘feel’ the distance as opposed to the sim so whether that helped too I can’t be too sure however the straightness and consistency of the rest of my clubs was definitely thanks to the sim.

All in all as stated I’m happy with the Ccam however it has always been in my nature to second guess things and overly analyse my decisions to ensure I’ve not made any mistakes. I hope this is informative for anyone looking at the product however I don’t think I’ve really mentioned anything that wasn’t already known (such as the more time consuming setup and the limits of dealing with a one man company, although I must admit Martin was replying within the hour when I needed help with my setup and we must have exchanged nearly 15-20 emails in my first week including a few on sat and sun)!

Anyway I’m off, congrats to anyone who has managed to read this far and get through the above long winded waffle, I applaud you!

[bubba22]

Nice review. Pretty well sums it up. Certainly not plug n play. I think you will see much more accurate results with the hcam and vcam. Those smash factors are ridiculous. Martin should REALLY a dress that! Also the very low club head speed reading is very concerning. So what is your next move?

[ZMax]

Once you add the LA cam, ball speed will be used instead of club speed for distance calculations. Adding both LA and H-ball cams will allow for a more realistic putting experience, and also eliminate false launches. Having the Ccam alone is like having just the PX2.

I suspect that the club speed problem is due to the nature of the one trigger method. The shutter speed must be adjusted so the traces ends just before impact. This might cause other problems and might be difficult to do for all clubs.

Can you post some screen captures?

[mjbcfc]

Bubba:
My next move will be to chase up Martin about my original questions and try to get some answers. The best thing I can think of for a quick fix is to find out my swing speeds for each club and accurate distances for each club at a golf shop with the appropriate tech and then fine tune the GSA CP until everything ties in (therefore change the scale so that the swing speed is correct then change the smash factors to then give the correct distances based on those swing speeds). It isn't ideal but it could well be my only solution.

ZMax:
I've played around with the shutter speed however as you said getting the trace lines to end just before impact will be difficult to achieve for each club (would be nice to have inidividual club settings like the putter has or at least split into categories like short irons, mid irons,long irons, woods). I'll try to post some screenshots over the weekend though.

The fact that I'm having these slow readings isn't too troubling when you consider how much tweaking is involved with the system because you'd expect a little calibration would sort it out however the thing that worries me are the incredibly high smash factors indiacting that it is a known problem. I also don't really like the idea of the smash factor being a fixed number, surely there must be some way to calculate how much it changes when you miss the sweet spot (still get a 2.000 smash factor when I hit the ball with the toe of the driver).

Also another weird issue which I haven't yet flagged up to Martin, the ball/path ratio slider seems a bit backwards! I've read on this forum about the new ball flight laws stating that ball path is 85% club face and 15% club path however the GSAControl Panel seems to interpret club face in a backwards way. For example when I hit a big slice with a 3 degree out to in and very open 15 degree face the ball path should be starting right of the target line then slicing however in this instance (with the club face/path being 85:15) the ball will actually start left of the target line then slice its way round to the right. It seems that the software is reading the club face to ball path in a very 'topsy turvy' manner therefore 10 degree open (face pointing 10 degree right) is being interpretted as being 10 degree closed (however this is only for initial ball path as obviously the software will still show the open face causing a big slice so I believe it is something limited to the ball path ratio slider). To counter this I'm having to tell the CP to calculate ball path almost entirely on club path rather than 85% face 15% path.

Anyway, back to work, my boss is nearby haha!

[bubba22]

As ZMax pointed out, getting the vcam and hcam will increase the accuracy and solve the initial ball direction issues. Look at the Trackman smash factors http://www.trackman.dk/download/news...ewsletter6.pdf . Perhaps Martin should incorporate these for those that only use the Ccam without the other cams.

[wigalo]

The fact that I'm having these slow readings isn't too troubling when you consider how much tweaking is involved with the system because you'd expect a little calibration would sort it out however the thing that worries me are the incredibly high smash factors indiacting that it is a known problem. I also don't really like the idea of the smash factor being a fixed number, surely there must be some way to calculate how much it changes when you miss the sweet spot (still get a 2.000 smash factor when I hit the ball with the toe of the driver).

MJ. With your current setup, there's really no option with having a "measured" smash factor. Even IF your Ccam was measuring the correct clubhead speed, you would be missing the 2nd component of calc'ing your Smash Factor....ball speed. So until either Martin ships your LX or u give up on him and add the v and h cams, pured, toed and heeled shots will give you the same smash of 2. (or whatever u set it to)

Of more concern is the inability for us to dial in correct speed. See my post here regarding smash factor and erroneous ball AND club head speed readings.

http://http://forum.OttawaGolf.com/s...mulator/page42

At this point I am a bit disappointed with my purchase. If I didn't care about the accuracy of the measurements, I'd have saved some dough and purchased an optishot. I know the system needs to be tweaked, but math is math. Even with vcam installed and calibrated, I have to caress the numbers to get accurate distances.

I haven't bugged Martin too much as I've been playing a bunch in real life. But I do find myself not even bothering firing up the projector when I go into my simroom. I simply just go in and hit shots at the screen and groove my swing.

Once he gets done with the LX, I'll put some pressure on him to get my bcam working and look for some reasonable fixes for the inaccuracy.

[bubba22]

Remind us your exact setup Wigalo? PX2 sensor mat with hcam, vcam? Why are you having such difficulties still?

[mjbcfc]

Wigalo:
I understand that the smash factors that are shown aren't my true smash factors because you need the actual measured ball speed too however I was simply concerned about how high the smash factors were (the value of 2 for the driver was the actual default setting set by the software and not by my tweaking, the fact that this insanely high smash factor results in correct distances is the big issue that I was highlighting as it proves the club head speed is very wrong and makes me think Martin is fully aware of it).

I did read your post in the GSA thread when I first got my system setup as it was the most relevant when I tried searching for someone who had a similar problem, hopefully you can get it sorted out. From what I understand your having trouble with the ball speeds therefore do you at least think your club head speeds are accurate? Weird that we're both having speed issues but mine is club head speed whilst yours is ball (unless as stated your club speed is off too).

I chased up Martin today and he's responded saying that he's still very busy with the LX development and ball spin cam but that he'll answer my queries asap. Lets just hope everything gets sorted soon.

[wigalo]

@Bubba22 I'm the one that purchased the Modified Cx5... Vcam, Hcam, Ccam, Bcam and instead of Line scan Cam for triggering, I have the optical sensor. Why am I still having problems? Good question, maybe cause the system is half baked, I don't know.

@MJ My accuracy stems from both the Vcam (ball speed) and Ccam (club speed). Like I say, I can dial it in to make the numbers get close to my distances but should I have to when cameras should be able to calculate accurate speeds?

Hopefully I'm missing something and I'll be happy and have spin numbers with the Bcam soon.

[bubba22]

Wig, will the Bcam change things for you? My understanding is that th Bcam actually uses the ball speed from the Vcam to calculate the spin. Correct me if I sm wrong but I don't think the Bcam calculates the ball speed, just the spin and axis tilt. You guys need to get Martin to sort out the ball and Club speeds as they are critical to accurate smash numbers and distances. Martins smash defaults are completely silly. Can you not change them mj?

[wigalo]

Bubba, you are correct. The Bcam will have no effect on the the Club speed calc. I just made that comment because once Martin has the Bcam done, he can focus on getting the other issues resolved.

I'm sure that 95% of his time now is going into the Bcam and LX

[bubba22]

Gotcha Wig! Well, keep pressing him to solve your issues. He doesn't want bad press on the forum so should dedicate some time to look at your concerns.

[ZMax]

Wigalo,

The LA and H-cam are fine when used with the PX2. What appears to be half baked is the Ccam. And as I mentioned earlier, it might be a limitation of the camera and trigger method that is currently being used. I always felt that he should have been working on the SX or LX instead of the Ccam.

As for the Bcam, I told you I had doubts a while back and I still do. From my experience, if the Bcam is going to work, it might only work in the LX.

The Bcam in the LX does measure ball speed. How accurate? Who knows....

[bubba22]

ZMax does make some good points!

[wigalo]

@ZMax. Why do you think that the Bcam could work in the LX, but not in the fixed sim set up? It seems that it would be easier to make it work in a permanent install environment as oposed to the mobile LX.

[mjbcfc]

Bubba:
Changing the smash factors isn't really beneficial at the moment because reducing them to a more normal value will result in my shots coming up short (I suppose I could then just ramp up the shot boost factor or change the scale in the CP until the correct distances with the new smash factor is achieved but it isn't really worth it). As stated the value of the smash factors isn't really too bothersome as I'm not really interested yet in my actual smash factors however the concern is the fact that they are defaulted to such a high value thereby indicating that Martin is fully aware of the limited accuracy of the Ccam as regards to speed measurements.

Just hope I don't ever regret not going down the Protee route, the main draw to GSA was the LX however I'm growing less confident about using a real ball in my garage (especially since my cousin shanked a few foam balls the other week into the wall haha, however if I can somehow build a little enclosure around the screen with some sort of wall padding then I'm sure I'd be more than happy to start whacking some real balls).

Also a little addendum to my review, the fiberbuilt trigger mat design is very confusing. See the image below of the mat, as you can see the tee is towards the left of the mat and so I find that with my irons the club is following through onto the artificial grass surface of my stance mat and it is churning it up. I'm not sure why the mat couldn't have been flipped so that your follow through is on the fiberbuilt mat rather than whatever surface you have in front of you. I'm sure this isn't a problem for lefties and I suppose I could flip it myself and tell the Ccam to be triggered by the ball spin sensor instead of the camera trigger sensor however changing all of that now will be very time consuming and I've already mitigated the problem slightly by 'toughening up' the area where I'm following through however it just looks a bit scruffy.

CTXmat.jpg

Got someone coming over tonight for a demo and a few holes at Celtic Manor so I need to get back into positive mode........from a purely enjoyment standpoint I must admit it is awesome and regardless of the speed issues it is great to actually see the undoubted evidence of my club head via a proper camera image.

[CPA]

I have been playing Celtic Manor of late, is it me or are the graphics better?

[ZMax]

@ZMax. Why do you think that the Bcam could work in the LX, but not in the fixed sim set up? It seems that it would be easier to make it work in a permanent install environment as oposed to the mobile LX.

It's much easier to light up a ball at 2 ft vs 8-10 ft. Even at 2ft, the LX has issues.

Not really saying that it could never work in a permanent setup from the ceiling. Just trying to express the difficulty involved due to the current cameras being used.

[wigalo]

Makes sense. Supposedly Martin has found a strobe/flash with beam extender that works. We'll see.

[bubba22]

Personally mj, if it were me, I would adjust the smash factors to something normal and adjust the carry distances per club to your appropriate distances based on the club speed. The problem with the Ccam as a stand alone is that there is no ball measurement so it really is like the Optishot or P3pro in that the ball speed, launch, horizontal direction are really gestimated (based purely on the club data) and so is the resultant distance. I personally would prefer to see a normal smash factor and adjust the ball carry than seeing a smash of 2 which we all know is rediculous. At the end of the day however, if you really want better accuracy you need to add at least the Bcam and Vcam.

[mjbcfc]

Bubba:
With the Ccam as a stand alone system adjusting the carry distances for each club essentially changes the smash factor therefore tweaking it as you explained isn't possible however I think I will possibly make the smash factors as normal as possible then change the scale of the Ccam in the Control Panel until the system reads a more accurate speed and resulting ball distance (which I appreciate is basically what you were suggesting). It obviously won't be perfect but it'll at least be better.

I showed off the sim to a friend tonight and played 9 holes, he had at least 2 mislaunches every hole and 1 non read every hole. Like me though he was extremely satisfied with the club data feedback (club path and club face) and was constantly in awe of the shot analysis after each shot. Think having the Hcam and Vcam would be a hell of an upgrade, no waggles causing mis launches, correct ball path, ability to hit low punches and high flops etc. Also putting and chipping will be a lot more fluid and natural!

[bubba22]

I see. Remind me again mj, are your club speeds normal or low? That seems like a lot of errors!

[syhlif32]

he had at least 2 mislaunches every hole and 1 non read every hole.

That will get old real fast! The Lx has been 'coming soon' for +6 months even if it will get into production this year I would be surprised if it would be working correctly right out the box! Martin's products have in the past have required a lot of user setup and knowledge.

That said for my setup I would like to have all the cameras mounted on the ceiling. Would make the setup much nicer not having cams and cables on the floor.

I do recall Zmax did not think that the Bcam would be fast enough. Wonder if it would be annoying with the flashes/strobe coming down from the ceiling with the Lx type of spin cam?

[northgolf]

I do recall Zmax did not think that the Bcam would be fast enough. Wonder if it would be annoying with the flashes/strobe coming down from the ceiling with the Lx type of spin cam?

On the tech news page, Martin says the Xenon strobe has an IR filter, so the flashes should be imperceptible. I am hoping he gets the LX into production this month - it looks quite close. My biggest curiosity is how he is going to calibrate the LX.

[syhlif32]

Northgolf, IR infrared is not in the light spectrum that humans can see!

[northgolf]

imperceptible - def: impossible to perceive. I think that's what I said.