Hitting a *cough* provisional *cough*

[Wknd_Warrior]

You pop up your driver. It's late on the course, no one waiting for the tee and it's been a couple of holes since you hit a good one, or maybe you just want to see how far down the fairway you can hit one that doesn't count, so you say

"I might not find that one" lol, and tee another up.

basically mid round practise after you take the real shot. I"m pretty sure this is a penalty in stroke play, loss of hole etc...but in a every day round, but a round where you want to use for your official cap, is this allowed?

Basically, are you allowed to rehit a bad shot on the course just as a practise and still enter your round into the system?

[AAA]

No

[LobWedge]

No

And you should get that cough looked at. It's worked its way in to your fingers

[nokids]

You can hit a provisional ball if your ball might be lost or in a hazard.

[Kilroy]

No, not if it may be in a hazard. You can only hit a provisional if it may be lost or out of bounds.

[gbower]

Pablo, you obviously weren't paying attention at last years rules clinic.

[jvincent]

Basically, are you allowed to rehit a bad shot on the course just as a practise and still enter your round into the system?

You can still enter the round. For that hole, since it was not played according to the rules, you are SUPPOSED to use par + any handicap strokes as your score.

[nokids]

By hazard I meant white stake hazard ;-)

[AAA]

No, not if it may be in a hazard. You can only hit a provisional if it may be lost or out of bounds.

If it may be in a (water) hazard, then it may not be but may be lost outside.
Be careful when shorthanding the words, they are written very precisely for a reason.

[AAA]

By hazard I meant white stake hazard ;-)

Now they are very hazardous.

[Wknd_Warrior]

You can still enter the round. For that hole, since it was not played according to the rules, you are SUPPOSED to use par + any handicap strokes as your score.

So if I'm a 10 at the home course after the calculations, I just take bogey assuming it's one of the first 10 cap holes? Sounds like a pretty sweet deal seeing how I botched my first. Of course, if it was that bad the provisional might be legitimate so...

[Wilster]

On a similar note , If a player tees up his first shot , then hits that shot wayward left . Knowing that he will have trouble finding that particular shot (slices down past a tree line) , he calls provisional then re-tees his shot and hits it down the fairway .
When he gets up to the point of where his ball cross into the tree line , he noticed that it is red staked .
My question is , is that player allowed to Re-tee up his 2nd ball to hit that shot ? or would he have had to hit it off the tee deck with no tee?
If he had known that it was red staked he would have had a drop at point of entry , but because he didn't know at the time he calls a provisional , does he play the provisional 3 off the tee or take the drop ?

[LobWedge]

On a similar note , If a player tees up his first shot , then hits that shot wayward left . Knowing that he will have trouble finding that particular shot (slices down past a tree line) , he calls provisional then re-tees his shot and hits it down the fairway .
When he gets up to the point of where his ball cross into the tree line , he noticed that it is red staked .
My question is , is that player allowed to Re-tee up his 2nd ball to hit that shot ? or would he have had to hit it off the tee deck with no tee?
If he had known that it was red staked he would have had a drop at point of entry , but because he didn't know at the time he calls a provisional , does he play the provisional 3 off the tee or take the drop ?

Any time you're required to play, re-play, or elect to hit a provisional from the teeing area, you are allowed to tee up the ball.

If the player didn't know that the area where his ball was lost was designated as a water hazard, he is justified in playing a provisional ball because he's operating under the assumption that his ball may be lost outside of a water hazard.

Now, if it was known or virtually certain by the player that his ball was in that area and he knew that it was a water hazard, then the 2nd ball he subsequently played from the tee is not a provisional, but the ball in play. His first ball is now lost, and he has proceeded under "stroke and distance" (see Rules 26-1a and 27-1) and he lies 3 where his second ball comes to rest.

[Wilster]

But he would have to take a drop , or because he didn't see it enter the red staked area , he plays the provisional ?

[LobWedge]

But he would have to take a drop , or because he didn't see it enter the red staked area , he plays the provisional ?

The bold part of your statement basically answers your question. Unless it is known, or virtually certain that the ball is inside that area, he may not drop a ball. The ball would be lost, and the provisional would become the ball in play after either a 5 minute search, or the provisional ball was played from a point closer to the hole than where the original ball was thought to be.

Known = 100% confirmed, because you can actually see and identify the ball.

Virtually Certain = 99% certainty that the ball lies within that area, because there is no other reasonable possibility that the ball could be somewhere else.

There is a fundamental problem with courses marking wooded areas with red stakes when they have no water courses in them. The main reason is that trees essentially negate "virtually certain" because trees deflect golf balls everywhere.

[ScottRempel]

Quick question that somewhat ties into this topic:

You hit a terrible shot into the woods (part of the course, not a hazard). You know it may be lost so you hit a provisional. You crush your provisional...let's even say this is a short par 4 and you've ended up on the green...perhaps with an easy putt to save par.

Since you declared you were hitting a provisional, are you required to actively look for your lost ball for 5 minutes or is it up to the player to decide when it is lost? In this case, you really don't want to find your ball as you know it is 20 yards in the trees and you'll have no hope of saving par or maybe even bogey from where you are.
Obviously you could just wander around in the woods for a few minutes and not look very hard, but is this allowed and/or ethical? Or are you allowed to just walk by the area and decide that you are declaring the first ball lost?

Just curious.

[jeffc]

Quick question that somewhat ties into this topic:

You hit a terrible shot into the woods (part of the course, not a hazard). You know it may be lost so you hit a provisional. You crush your provisional...let's even say this is a short par 4 and you've ended up on the green...perhaps with an easy putt to save par.

Since you declared you were hitting a provisional, are you required to actively look for your lost ball for 5 minutes or is it up to the player to decide when it is lost? In this case, you really don't want to find your ball as you know it is 20 yards in the trees and you'll have no hope of saving par or maybe even bogey from where you are.
Obviously you could just wander around in the woods for a few minutes and not look very hard, but is this allowed and/or ethical? Or are you allowed to just walk by the area and decide that you are declaring the first ball lost?

Just curious.

you can abandon that ball if you like. You don't have to look for it.

[Kilroy]

That's true but there is nothing stopping others from finding it. If found within the 5 minutes or before you hit the provisional again, it's in play. You don't get to "declare" it lost or abandoned.

[jeffc]

That's true but there is nothing stopping others from finding it. If found within the 5 minutes or before you hit the provisional again, it's in play. You don't get to "declare" it lost or abandoned.

I am curious about that. Pretend we are in a match play, or otherwise, can i suggest to my partners or competitors that I am playing the 2nd ball? Do they have a right to look for it even if I tell them I am playing the provisional?

[Kilroy]

They can look if they want to. Run, don't walk to the provisional, and hope the green is clear.

[Wknd_Warrior]

You aren't really supposed to have two ball in play and pick the best one. So in spirit anyhow, you should really look for your first. The rules are such that you don't really have to look that hard, or at all really, but others can find your ball for you. You can hit your provisional while they are searching making it the ball in play, if you play out of turn there may be other consequences etc...

The point is a provisional is supposed to be "if you can't find your original". Deciding you want it because it's a good shot is bending the rules IMO. OIf course at that point you've already paid the price of a bad shot anyhow nad managed to hit the good one...

I sometimes simply re-hit, abandonning the original ball completely without even bothering to look for it.

[sharkshooter]

I am curious about that. Pretend we are in a match play, or otherwise, can i suggest to my partners or competitors that I am playing the 2nd ball? Do they have a right to look for it even if I tell them I am playing the provisional?

Was it Mickelson who once was unhappy when someone else found a ball he would have preferred not be found before he could play his provisional?

[Kilroy]

That's true. It's probably the most frequently mentioned example too!

[BC MIST]

You aren't really supposed to have two ball in play and pick the best one. So in spirit anyhow, you should really look for your first. The rules are such that you don't really have to look that hard, or at all really, but others can find your ball for you. You can hit your provisional while they are searching making it the ball in play, if you play out of turn there may be other consequences etc...

The point is a provisional is supposed to be "if you can't find your original". Deciding you want it because it's a good shot is bending the rules IMO. OIf course at that point you've already paid the price of a bad shot anyhow nad managed to hit the good one...

I sometimes simply re-hit, abandonning the original ball completely without even bothering to look for it.

The provisional does not become a ball IN PLAY until it has been determined that the original is out of bounds or lost, based on the definition of what constitutes a lost ball. It is a player's right to look or not to look for a ball and has nothing to do with the "spirit of the game." The spirit of the game is about consideration for others, abiding by the Rules, and conducting oneself in an appropriate manner. It is unwritten etiquette that if a player requests you NOT to look for his ball, that you don't, but it is within the rules for you to look if you want.

If the player plays out of turn in playing his provisional that is closer to the hole than where the original is likely to be, there is no additionally penalty, regardless of whether it is stroke play or match play. However, if you are an opponent, you may recall the stroke he made with the provisional, but you cannot then obligate him to play the original if it found within the 5 minutes because the status of the original ball would not change. As a fellow competitor, you cannot recall his stroke.

[LobWedge]

However, if you are an opponent, you may recall the stroke he made with the provisional, but you cannot then obligate him to play the original if it found within the 5 minutes because the status of the original ball would not change.

An interesting wrinkle... (D. 27-2b/1)

[Wknd_Warrior]

I read an extensive thread on this topic not too long ago.

One of the conclusions was that if you took a stroke on the provisional it became the ball in play. I wasn't speaking to the "play the provisional up to where" clause, I assume we all understand this and it's sort of out of context in this conversation. There was talk of pysically preventing a player from making said stroke while the first ball was being searchewd for lol.

It is a player's right to look or not to look for a ball and has nothing to do with the "spirit of the game."

That's your opinion. to me the spirit of the game is to hit the ball, find it, hit it again. Many of the rules are quite obviously put in place to prevent a player from taking the best of two lies. A provisional is there as a convenience so one doesn't have to go look for their ball, and then walk back and re tee if they don't find it or prefer to rehit.

The spirit of the game is about consideration for others, abiding by the Rules, and conducting oneself in an appropriate manner. It is unwritten etiquette that if a player requests you NOT to look for his ball, that you don't, but it is within the rules for you to look if you want.

I see this the opposite way, tyou should look for the ball and I find in inapropriate to ask someone not to. I wouldn't look, it's there game. Since it's within the rules for them not to look they don't have to.


If he plays out of turn you are saying the stroke can be recalled,but the provisional is the ball in play because he hit it. That's what I stated in my post that you seemed to contradict. As far as I know there is no rule that says someone can't hit their provisional making it the ball in play as long as their first ball has not yet been found, regardless of whether it's been 5 minutes or 30 seconds. I"m not sure of the ramifications of playing out of turn, especially to gain an advantage, but it can get complicated.

This came up in one of the big breaks. It was pretty obvious who was working the rules and who was playing golf.

[Wknd_Warrior]

Really, this topic comes up all the time. I really find it surprising that anyone considers it good form to take a provisional without looking for the original simply because they prefer the provisional.

The simple matter of it is they can't put rules in place to force you to actually find a potentially lost ball within 5 minutes, so it's really a loop hole that no one expects you to shoot yourself in the foot over.

Calling it good etiquette and in the spirit of the game is really quite a stretch. It's become the way it is as far as I can tell, I really don't think this is how the originators of the game hoped it would play out.

[AAA]

The provisional does not become a ball IN PLAY until it has been determined that the original is out of bounds or lost, based on the definition of what constitutes a lost ball.

That is significantly incomplete. 27-2b

[AAA]

The simple matter of it is they can't put rules in place to force you to actually find a potentially lost ball within 5 minutes, so it's really a loop hole that no one expects you to shoot yourself in the foot over.

It's become the way it is as far as I can tell, I really don't think this is how the originators of the game hoped it would play out.

The words in the rule make it clear that the purpose of the rule is to save time
I'm not sure how a player, fellow competitor or opponent is going to save time by looking for a ball that may take five minutes to find if the player is prepared to pay the price of S&D.
If he plays his provisional he is playing 4. If the original (from the tee) is found he is playing 2.

[Wknd_Warrior]

The point is, if he flubbed his provisional 50 yards and it took him two strokes to play the provisional up would he still be as exited about taking it instead of finding the lost ball? Basically he wants the provisional cause it's good after the fact.

Hit your ball, find it, hit it again, if you can't find it go back and rehit, that's the basic premiss of the game. It's not hit two balls, take the best one.