Unique drop situation (narrow drop area b/w 2 hazards) - options for full relief

[waynemac]

This happened to me while playing #18 at the Talon course at Greyhawk a few weeks back. If you're not familiar with the hole, water is in play down the right side of the course (basically) from tee to green.

Off the tee, I hit a slice that skipped through the large fairway bunker on the right, and rolled into the water. I found my ball in the water so I knew exactly where my point of entry was. At my point of entry, there is a tiny strip of land less than a yard wide between the red line of the lateral water hazard and the fairway bunker. Under lateral water rules, I know I am entitled to 2 club-lengths of relief no closer to the hole. Since, by taking maximum available relief (bullet c below), I could actually drop in another hazard (the fairway bunker). However - this appears to be conflicting with point (i) below - in trying to get full relief, it reads like I cannot drop in the other hazard. Or at least, I would not be getting "full relief" by dropping in the bunker.

My question is this. Since, of course, dropping into the bunker is still dropping into a hazard - was I entitled to relief on the other (left) side of the bunker equidistant from the hole? (which, incidentally, would have given me a lie in the fairway).

FYI, I placed my ball on the strip of land after twice dropping and having it roll back into the water hazard. This left me with a precarious stance where I had to stand on my tiptoes with my heels over the lip of the bunker - clearly not a situation where I was getting full relief, but not being 100% clear of my options, I chose this option as I knew it was legit and wanted to make sure the round was not stained in any way (I shot a then-PB that day ). Instead of having a reasonable chance to go for the green on my next shot with a FW wood, I ended up getting back into play with a short iron - so I wonder if I possibly short-changed myself with the option I chose?

Thanks!

Rule 20-2. c. When to Re-Drop
A dropped ball must be re-dropped without penalty if it:

(i) rolls into and comes to rest in a hazard;
(ii) rolls out of and comes to rest outside a hazard;
(iii) rolls onto and comes to rest on a putting green;
(iv) rolls and comes to rest out of bounds;
(v) rolls to and comes to rest in a position where there is interference by the condition from which reliefwas taken under Rule 24-2b (immovable obstruction), Rule 25-1 (abnormal ground conditions), Rule 25-3 (wrong putting green) or a Local Rule (Rule 33-8a),
or rolls back into the pitch-mark from which itwas lifted under Rule 25-2 (embedded ball);
(vi) rolls and comes to rest more than two club-lengthsfrom where it first struck a part of the course; or
(vii) rolls and comes to rest nearer the hole than:

(a) its original position or estimated position (see Rule 20-2b) unless otherwise permitted by the Rules; or
(b) the nearest point of relief or maximum available relief (Rule 24-2, 25-1 or 25-3); or
(c) the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard or lateral water hazard (Rule 26-1).

[AAA]

See my post further down. I did not read the post correctly.

[orangeTANG]

Out of curiousity, could it have been dropped in the bunker as that is considered a separate hazard?

I know hazards are treated differently but I'm thinking along the lines of Kevin Na's drop a few weeks back where he took relief from the curb, but dropped on the cart path.

[AAA]

On rereading the original post, yes, he may have dropped directly into the bunker as it would not have 'rolled into a hazard'

[waynemac]

Thanks for the replies. Correct, it would not have rolled into the hazard, it would have been dropped directly in it. I did consider this option carefully. Here's another sticky wicket to throw into the mix... it would have been extremely likely that if I chose to drop in the bunker the ball would have rolled to the bottom of the bunker, farther than 2 club lengths from my point of entry into the water hazard. If such had been the case, would this have been a legit drop? Or would I be required to drop twice and then place in the bunker (no more than 2 club lengths from my point of entry into the lateral water)? In this case, would it have been legit to drop on the other side of the bunker as per my original post? (my nearest point of relief outside of a(ny) hazard (aside from where I chose to play)).

Thanks again. I'm addicted to this forum... long-time lurker.

[ex-mailman]

Could the OP have dropped on the "sliver of land he referred to? Since the rules says drop "WITIHIN" two club lengths of the position the ball crossed the hazard he could have dropped less than two club lengths.

[waynemac]

That's exactly what I did, ex-mailman (twice, then placed on the sliver). I knew this was legit, I guess what I'm trying to figure out is if there were options available to me that may have been more beneficial.

[justsomeguy]

Thanks for the replies. Correct, it would not have rolled into the hazard, it would have been dropped directly in it. I did consider this option carefully. Here's another sticky wicket to throw into the mix... it would have been extremely likely that if I chose to drop in the bunker the ball would have rolled to the bottom of the bunker, farther than 2 club lengths from my point of entry into the water hazard.

The point of entry into the water hazard is not really relevant in this situation (from Rule 20 above):

(vi) rolls and comes to rest more than two club-lengths from where it first struck a part of the course

You would only have to re-drop if the ball rolled more than 2 club-lengths from where you dropped the ball in the bunker.

[AAA]

it would have been extremely likely that if I chose to drop in the bunker the ball would have rolled to the bottom of the bunker, farther than 2 club lengths from my point of entry into the water hazard. If such had been the case, would this have been a legit drop? Or would I be required to drop twice and then place in the bunker (no more than 2 club lengths from my point of entry into the lateral water)? In this case, would it have been legit to drop on the other side of the bunker as per my original post? (my nearest point of relief outside of a(ny) hazard (aside from where I chose to play)).

The drop must hit the ground within 2cl of the point of entry. The 2cl roll is taken from where it first hit the ground when dropped. It must be dropped again, outside the bunker if you wish. All the original options are open. If you drop in the bunker again and it rolls more than 2cl then it must be placed at the point that it hit the ground.

[ex-mailman]

Sorry Wayne- I guess I neglected to read the OP fully.

[LobWedge]

Just curious. Where was the hole located on the green that day? And where in relation to the bunker was your point of entry in to the hazard (front/middle/back)?

[LobWedge]

The reason I ask is because you had other options under Rule 26-1. Namely (b) and (c)(ii).

If you look at the attached picture you'll see what I mean.

To be fair, 26-1(c)(ii) is probably not a reasonable option for this situation because of the distance to travel to the equidistant points, and there's a fair bit of long grass over there, from what I can remember.

However, option (b) would have been a very good play because, regardless of the hole position, you should have been able to get a line from the hole through any point of entry beside that bunker (the blue area represents the points of entry that would be very near the bunker) to a spot on the fairway where you would have had a clean, flat lie. And, you would have saved yourself the trouble of having to deal with the bunker, and limited space for your drop.

[LobWedge]

And, of course, there's always option (a)

[OutOfTheRough]

I like option B, point of entry, in-line with hole and go back to a good yardage in the short stuff!!

Thanks for posting the image !

[waynemac]

ex-mailman - no worries man, sorry if my reply seemed curt - was not meant to be.

lobwedge - I made a jpg of my own, attached. The orange line is my approximate shot path. The blue dot is the approx. pin location, back left. The red dot is my point of entry into the hazard (almost exactly).

Re: 26-1(c)(ii) option, you're right - probably not a reasonable option in order to keep with pace of play - althought it was early in the season, and we basically had the course to ourselves. The orange dot would have been my approx. equidistant point on the other side of the hazard. That part of the course is not marked with red lines (as you would expect, lol - it's at the 10th tee box - so dropping 2 clublengths from the water on that side would have put me in some gnarly fescue. Interesting tho - a tournament ruling might have put me on top by the cart path with a good line to the hole).

outoftherough, re: option B, since it's a lateral water hazard (and not a regular water hazard - i.e. no yellow stakes), I do not think that this option was available to me. It sounds like you might have been suggesting something similar in your screengrab, lobwedge? I'm pretty sure that I was entitled to 2 clublengths only, and could not go back on my line to the hole). Could I have called an unplayable lie? (as I said, I found my ball - about 3 inches into the water, just barely below the surface of the water). Hmmm... Would've left me with a shot from the pink dot (in the fairway), although the pink dot leaves me about 250-260 from the hole.

rulesquestion.jpg

[OutOfTheRough]

Hmmm.... When I read the 26-1 rule you get 2 options a & b if it is a water hazard but if it is a lateral you can choose either a or b , but get an additional option of c -

c. As additional options available only if the ball last crossed the margin of a lateral water hazard, drop a ball outside the water hazard within two club-lengths of and not nearer the hole than (i) the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard or (ii) a point on the opposite margin of the water hazard equidistant from the hole

I'm no rules official so... I'll let lobwedge comment!

[BC MIST]

Could I have called an unplayable lie? (as I said, I found my ball - about 3 inches into the water, just barely below the surface of the water). Hmmm... Would've left me with a shot from the pink dot (in the fairway), although the pink dot leaves me about 250-260 from the hole.

Unfortunately, a ball in a water hazard cannot be deemed unplayable, so your reference point to go back in line with the hole would still be where the ball last crossed the hazard margin, versus its place of rest in the water hazard.

[AAA]

outoftherough, re: option B, since it's a lateral water hazard (and not a regular water hazard - i.e. no yellow stakes), I do not think that this option was available to me.

Options A and B are available for any Water Hazard (Yellow or Red). Option C is only available for a Lateral Water Hazard (Red).

See link
http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules.../Rule-26/#26-1