Dean Wilson (Are U Kidding?)

[broken27]

Okay, so apparently this guy is a relative nobody with a couple wins on the Japanese tour and a low ranking coming outta Q-school. He's got his foot in the door during what's likely to be one of very few chances this season on the PGA. He's playing well, at -6 through 3 days of play, tied 16th or so....

The moron forgets to sign his scorecard and gets DQed??????????

I just don't understand it. Firstly, how could you forget something like that? Secondly, at this level of play, with millions on the line, why don't tourney officials remind players to sign their scorecards, to avoid the retardedly nit-picky DQ situation we saw at the Buick.

Knowing this forum, I'm likely in the minority when I say that these little technicalities do nothing but take away from the sport. It's administrative work, let a secretary handle it. Focus on the golf, and let that decide who wins, don't determine it by who filed their taxes first, or who handed in their driver's licence renewal forms with the neatest printing.

Dan

[donh]

Good morning, broken.

You'd think that the caddy would remind him. Agreed.

But I believe that it is not proper for the officials to remind them to sign the card. Then you'd have to have someone at each tee to "remind" them to stay behind the tee markers. (sorry Farzin )

I believe that Golf is an honorable game, where it is encumbant on the participants follow the rules, at whatever cost. Signing the card is making it "official" and warrants a DQ. His score was not made official.

Dean was probably all caught up in the emotion of being "in the hunt" and maybe thought that he DID sign the card.

For those who have been to PGA events, a question. At what point is he deemed to have not signed the card? The players enter the scoring tent (cabin). If they leave the scoring area without signing their card, does that mean they DQ? What happens if a guy has left the tent area, and is reminded by his caddy at the car??

Just wondering.
Cheers,

[EDSGOLF]

What was the DQ situation that happended in the Buick? That guy Dean will have nightmares forever!!!

[el tigre]

Good morning, broken.

You'd think that the caddy would remind him. Agreed.

But I believe that it is not proper for the officials to remind them to sign the card. Then you'd have to have someone at each tee to "remind" them to stay behind the tee markers. (sorry Farzin )

I believe that Golf is an honorable game, where it is encumbant on the participants follow the rules, at whatever cost. Signing the card is making it "official" and warrants a DQ. His score was not made official.

Dean was probably all caught up in the emotion of being "in the hunt" and maybe thought that he DID sign the card.

For those who have been to PGA events, a question. At what point is he deemed to have not signed the card? The players enter the scoring tent (cabin). If they leave the scoring area without signing their card, does that mean they DQ? What happens if a guy has left the tent area, and is reminded by his caddy at the car??

Just wondering.
Cheers,

Here's a quote I found on the GEA about it:

Mark Russell [PGA Tour tournament director] said the official in the trailer checks each card to make sure there's a score in each box and two signatures, one from the player and one from a playing partner. He said Wilson left the trailer before the official could check his card.

"If he has both feet outside the trailer, he's deemed to have left the scoring area," Russell said. "Our person in the scoring area said that he was checking another guy's card for that exact situation and Dean left before he had a chance to check his.

"Ultimately the player is responsible for knowing the rules of competition, and unfortunately he didn't sign for his score."

I agree with broken, this is retardedly nit-picky. Yeah, Wilson goofed - but it is the job of the official in the scoring area to specifically check for this, and if they are going to be this strict then that official should be asking players to stay in the tent until the card has been checked.

There seems to be about 3-4 times a year that some incredibly stupid DQ situation arises in a tournament, and all the PGA seems to do is shrug their shoulders and blame the players. And while the players may indeed be responsible for whatever dumb mistake was made, IMHO these situations are often just as embarrasing for the PGA as it is for the player involved. If you are going to be so incredibly strict on the administrative details, then why are they so incredibly cavalier when it comes to administrative procedures in the scoring tent??

[BC MIST]

In the Alexander of Tunis tournament in July, I sat with my 2 FC's at the scorer's table where we checked both our own card and the one that we marked. Once we were satisfied that our card was correct, we were instructed to attest the score and place the card in a box, at which time it became official. Had any one of us not done this then we would have been obviously DQ'd. On Tour, from the info above, when you leave the scorer's tent, your card becomes official.

The responsibility for signing my card is mine and mine alone. It is not up to an official, a scorer, or my caddie to remind me. It's great if they do, but signing is part of my job. It is no diferent than teeing off behind the tee markers, putting out, dropping correctly, playng with conforming equipment or 14 clubs, or whatever.

The mistake that Dean Wilson made was his and his alone and I have no sympathy, nor do I agree that someone else is to blame for his blunder. In another thread there was a strong consensus that playing by the rules for money or in a tournament is something we all should do. Well, signing your scorecard is part of the rules. If dumb old BC MIST can play in hundreds and hundreds of tournaments over 40+ years and never forget to sign his card, then a PGA Tour pro, whose livliehood depends on doing the same, should be able to do it too. DW is not likely to make this mistake again, nor was Roberto DiVincenzo.

[mpare]

I wonder if the mistake was induced, in part, by the fact that he scored 2 bogeys and a double bogey in the last 6 holes that he played? Notwithstanding that little stumble, he was still well situated to make a run at it. It's too bad that he made such an error. At least Wilson will be the answer to two trivia questions: Name one of the PGA Tour players who played with Annika at Colonial? and Who was DQ'd at the 2005 Buick as a result of a brain cramp?

[Golfpeasant]

Hi,

Long time reader, first time poster.

I don't think you can say "this rule is dumb, and that rule is good". The rules are there, and can be changed if deemed correct to do so (such as the removing of the flagstick while the ball is in motion rule that Paul Azinger had the misfortune of experiencing). The signing the scorecard rule is as old as the hills. Tough luck, lesson learned.

If you step back even further, we have a sport where millions of dollars are paid to men who can knock a tiny ball down thousands of yards of grass with pieces of metal...none of it makes a lot of sense.

[el tigre]

The mistake that Dean Wilson made was his and his alone and I have no sympathy, nor do I agree that someone else is to blame for his blunder. In another thread there was a strong consensus that playing by the rules for money or in a tournament is something we all should do. Well, signing your scorecard is part of the rules. If dumb old BC MIST can play in hundreds and hundreds of tournaments over 40+ years and never forget to sign his card, then a PGA Tour pro, whose livliehood depends on doing the same, should be able to do it too. DW is not likely to make this mistake again, nor was Roberto DiVincenzo.

I'm not really disagreeing with you BC, and I'm sure that Dean Wilson would be the first person to admit that it was HIS mistake and he has to pay the price for it.

Nevertheless, this kind of silly, administrative mistake seems to happen at least once a year to someone on tour - and it is extremely embarassing to the PGA to have to DQ somebody for it. So while it may be fine to say it is the player's responsibility (which it is), IMHO it would be a lot better for the game in general and the PGA in particular if they took a lot more care with procedures in the scoring tent. The PGA is supposed to be the top level of golf in the world, and this sort of thing should not be allowed to happen in a professionally-managed, world-class event. IMHO, simply saying Dean Wilson was a dummy is not good enough (even if it is true).

[sensfan63]

I find it confusing that you would partially blame the PGA for Dean Wilson's mistake. No doubt there are players that are so steamed after a round that they don't want to listen to what anyone has to say, especially the officials in the scoring tent. I've been there, and although I'm not condoning it, emotions can get the better of a player and he can end up either forgetting to sign his scorecard (rare) or signing for a wrong score (more common).

If we say that it is a stupid, administrative rule that should be changed or overlooked, where does it end? Would we absolve players of mistakes on their scorecard? After all, television is always on-site and the scores are always posted...why do they need scorecards?

In the end, the rules are there to protect the players and their integrity...by no means should they be changed. I'm sure that Dean Wilson feels pretty stupid about the whole thing, and I GUARANTEE you that he doesn't think the rule is stupid.

[el tigre]

In the end, the rules are there to protect the players and their integrity...by no means should they be changed.

I think you have misunderstood my point.

I am not advocating that rules be changed, or that some rules be overlooked. What I am saying is that the PGA should review and update its procedures regarding the administrative details around scorecards, because these mistakes are happening far too often. Frankly, it is an embarassement to the sport. Rather than being so concerned that players are punished appropriately for these errors, maybe the PGA should be taking steps to ensure that they don't happen so often - so they are not constantly being put in the position of having to disqualify players for such minor details. In other words, never mind fixing the blame - fix the problem.

EVERY sport has these minor administrative rules. For example, in most team sports the coach is required to sign the roster/game sheet verifying the players who are eligible to play in that game. Failure to sign would almost certainly mean your team would lose by default, since you have not verified and attested to your roster of players. Has this ever happened at the professional level? No. Is that because participants in other sports are so much smarter that they never make this mistake? No, they're human too. It is because the sport takes steps to make sure it doesn't happen, because they don't want to be put in that position. So they make sure that the timekeeper, scorekeeper and referees ALL check to make sure the roster is signed, and if it isn't they don't start the game until it is.

If I was in charge of the PGA scorer's tent, when someone brought in a scorecard they would be asked to have a seat at a table while I verifyed that the scorecard had been signed and attested correctly, and that a score had been entered for every hole. I would add up the scores on a calculator and ask them if that total is correct, and ask if they would like to check their card one more time. Then they could leave. Under this procedure, the only errors would be marking down a wrong score - which is hardly a minor detail.

[broken27]

The point behind all of this is that this "RULE" has nothing to do with the actual game, so it is superfluous and irrelevant. You could play -15 each day, to end the tourney at -60, and lose the record and tournament because of a stupid administrative detail.

Seems like just another idiotic formality. If it's an organized tournament, then organize!!! Get these guys to sign the scorecard as they sumbit it to the officials. Obviously there's not enough clarity in the process or else this situation would never arise.

Dan

[Andru]

Dan,

You're correct it's a stupid rule. The Idea is they want the same set of rules for everyone. Most amateurs do not have a scoring system and official rule experts to discuss. That's what makes the game so special. You can and should play the same rules as the pros. The solution is to have someone there to make sure all this is done correctly. Example. Have someone there to check the scorecard. "Excuse me My Wilson, this scorecard is not signed".

"Excuse me Mr Wilson, your total score does not match the total number of strokes."

Have one or two people there jsut to make sure all is in order. This auditor has no power. They're just a second set of eyes.

The looper is not in the scoring tent with the players. I'm sure he'll remind him now. I mean Dean Wilson's caddy just lost a payday himself.

We've all made mistakes.

[Golfpeasant]

The point behind all of this is that this "RULE" has nothing to do with the actual game, so it is superfluous and irrelevant.

There are lots of rules, not just in golf, like that. The rules are there to create an equal playing field. Is it idiotic? Sure. Does it happen, of course. I don't buy that the solution is to change the rule, because people will always find a way to be stupid. Its a mistake he'll never make again, problem solved.

[BC MIST]

Either make the player responsible for ensuring that the hole by hole score is correct, or make the markers that accompany each group responsible for the same. But, to suggest that it is the officials' responsibility to ensure that the player is responsible, is a bit much.

Dean Wilson not signing his card is not an embarrassment to the sport, it is an embarrassment to Dean Wilson. The system is almost idiot proof. When I mark your scorecard, there is a hole by hole tearoff section, in which I mark my own score, at the bottom of the scorecard. When the round is over I tear this section off and place it just above the card that you have marked for me. I check my score against what you have marked and I place a check mark to indicate that each individual hole has been marked correctly. I do this 3 times. Now, I give the card to the official or place it in the box, and walk away??? C'mon. If the people in the scorers area catch this in time, great. If not, too bad.

If I was in charge of the PGA scorer's tent, when someone brought in a scorecard they would be asked to have a seat at a table while I verifyed that the scorecard had been signed and attested correctly, and that a score had been entered for every hole. I would add up the scores on a calculator and ask them if that total is correct, and ask if they would like to check their card one more time. Then they could leave.

Doing what you have suggested in bold above means you get the card signed AND that the player agrees that the hole by hole score is correct. What you want done after that is meaningless because even if there is a mistake, the hole by hole score cannot be changed, it does not matter when the score gets added, as this is the job of the committee not the player. Or, are you suggesting that if the player signed for 4 when he really had a 5, that he just erase the 4 and write in a 5?

Where do we stop in trying to change "stupid" rules?
-If a player finds a 15th club in his bag,(Ian Woosnam) why should he be penalized? He was just practicing with it last night, accidently left it in his bag, and had no intention of using it.
-If he is late for his tee time because of traffic, should he not be allowed to play later, because traffic problems are not his fault?
-If my fellow competitor is attending the flag when I am about to putt, fails to pull it out because he gets distracted and my ball hits the flag, why should I be penalized as it is not my fault the guy did not pull the flag out
-I wait 15 seconds for the ball to fall in the hole instead of the allowable 10, why should I be penalized as the ball was moving and was going to fall in anyway? And so on and so on. All the rules are stupid and so is the game, when you really think about it.

Signing a scorecard is like signing a contract. The parties agree to abide by the terms of the agreement. By not signing, we have no agreement.

[sensfan63]

el tigre, you stated that this happens far too often...

Not really...in one of your earlier posts, you stated that ridiculous DQ situations happen 3-4 times per year. When you think about how many tournaments the PGA Tour administers and how many players are in each tournament, it really doesn't happen that often.

As to your contention that this never happens in other sports, well, just last week the London Knights (OHL hockey) played the entire game without Dan Fritsche's name on the scoresheet...only problem was, he played in the game and I think he even scored a goal.

Dean Wilson knew the rules, but made a human error. It's notable that he didn't get interviewed and say the rule is stupid, etc. He knows HE was the stupid one (in this situation).

[sensfan63]

Doing what you have suggested in bold above means you get the card signed AND that the player agrees that the hole by hole score is correct. What you want done after that is meaningless because even if there is a mistake, the hole by hole score cannot be changed, it does not matter when the score gets added, as this is the job of the committee not the player. Or, are you suggesting that if the player signed for 4 when he really had a 5, that he just erase the 4 and write in a 5?
.

BC MIST, what you described above happens all of the time in pro golf. It may not be pure and according to the rules, but it happens nonetheless.

What happens now is that some players immediately sign their cards, then go over the scores and make sure they are correct. The act of "handing in the scorecard AND leaving the scoring area" makes the score official, not the signing of the card.

If I'm reading it right, do you think that the signing of the card has to happen last? I'm not sure that this is the case...

[broken27]

BC MIST, what you described above happens all of the time in pro golf. It may not be pure and according to the rules, but it happens nonetheless.

What happens now is that some players immediately sign their cards, then go over the scores and make sure they are correct. The act of "handing in the scorecard AND leaving the scoring area" makes the score official, not the signing of the card.

If I'm reading it right, do you think that the signing of the card has to happen last? I'm not sure that this is the case...

Well, I'm not sure about the officialities of the whole process, but I'm sure if you sign your card before you start your round, you will be found to have signed an invalid scorecard and be DQed as well.

Quite honestly, in a 4-round tourney, why not just make them sign a total scorecard, instead of one on each day? I personally think that this rule is just overly trivial, and founded in the elitist history of the game. What other sport has people signing stuff other than autographs? Keep in mind I said "SPORTS", so curling, darts, billiards and bowling don't count.

Dan

[BC MIST]

6-6 b "After completion of the round the competitor should check his score for each hole...... He must ensure that the marker or markers have signed the scorecard, sign the scorecard himself and return it to the committe as soon as possible.
Penalty: Disqualification

6-6 c Alteration of scorecard
No alteration may be made on a scorecard after the competitor has returned it to the committee.

You are obviously correct. It seems then that I can sign a card on which there is a mistake, but make a correction before I hand it in. This seems a little strange to me because when you sign the card, you are saying that the hole by hole scores are accurate.

It seems then that handing in the card is more important than signing it, so maybe the points raised by the boys above have some validity. If I hand in a correct scorecard without a signature, no problem. If I hand in an incorrect card, then, as by the book.

This is good to know for when my memory starts to fail me in my 80's.

[LobWedge]

Personal accountability is the whole basis of golf. You have no one to blame but yourself for your mistakes. The current scorecard system obviously works. If the players didn't like it, they would have complained to the PGA Tour policy board years ago and had it changed.

Let's do the math...

The PGA Tour will run 40 full-field events this season (144 players). This is excluding all 4 majors, limited field events (Mercedes, WGC's & Tour Championship), and the "silly" season (after the Tour Championship).

39 events x 144 players x first 2 rounds = 11,232 scorecards
1 event x 144 players x first 4 rounds (Hope) = 576 scorecards

Total for first 2 rounds = 11,808 scorecards

The cut line for these events falls at the top 70 + ties, which usually pans out to around 74 players once the dust settles.

39 events x 74 players x last 2 rounds = 5,772 scorecards
1 event x 74 players x final round (Hope) = 74 scorecards

After cut total = 5,846 scorecards

Grand Total = 17,654 scorecards for 40 full-field events

Now lets say that this year there are an unheard of 5 DQ's this season for unsigned scorecard infractions.
5 DQ's ÷ 17,654 scorecards x 100 = 0.028%

I believe mathematicians call this "statistically insignificant."

Clipping along at an efficiency rate of 99.972% puts it solidly in 3rd place, right behind Death & Taxes.

Granted, Dean Wilson may not consider his gaffe "insignificant", but you also didn't hear him complain about it. All he said was, "First time ever as a pro." and left it at that. And I can guarantee (statistically speaking, of course ) that he'll never do it again.

[Kilroy]

Good post Lobbie

[Weazl]

Is that lobwedge or the starr of that new show numbers???

[EDSGOLF]

Some may say Lobwedge has "A Beautiful Mind"

[el tigre]

Personal accountability is the whole basis of golf. You have no one to blame but yourself for your mistakes.

I don't understand why people keep bringing this up. There is not a single person involved in this discussion (myself included) who would not agree that Dean Wilson messed up. The question of "who's at fault" for this mistake is not in dispute. He forgot to sign - and the penalty for forgetting is laid out in black and white in the rulebook.

The REAL questions are:
1) Does the punishment fit the crime? - Is disqualification the appropriate penalty for forgetting to sign your scorecard before you have "both feet outside the trailer". Remember, we're not talking about filling it out wrong or entering incorrect scores (which is fine BTW as the long as the scores are not lower) - we're talking about forgetting to scrawl something on the signature line.
2) Should the PGA improve administrative procedures regarding scorecards? - Of course you cannot eliminate EVERY possible mistake that can happen, but should the people who manage the event do more to ensure that players do not make these silly mistakes? Or is it simply "sink or swim" when it comes to players and their scores?

The current scorecard system obviously works. If the players didn't like it, they would have complained to the PGA Tour policy board years ago and had it changed.

The "scorecard system" is laid out in The Rules of Golf (as indicated by BC MIST above), which is administered by the USGA - not the PGA Tour policy board. The USGA couldn't care less what the PGA players like. The only thing the PGA decides is at what point the scorecard "has been returned to the Committee".

Let's do the math...

The math is irrelevant to Question #1. The number of times a rule is applied has no bearing on whether it is a good rule or a bad rule. The lawbooks are full of dumb, stupid rules (eg., in Florida it is illegal for an unmarried woman to parachute on Sundays!) - the fact that they are rarely applied does not make them any less stupid. You need to examine the rule on its own merits (or lack of them) to decide if it is good, bad, fair, unfair, appropriate, etc.

[BC MIST]

May I ask a question or two related to this discussion?

What happens if the marker leaves the scoring area and does not sign the player's scorecard? (Don't know) This happens a lot in club tournaments.

What happens if the marker signs the card and leaves the scoring area, after which the player finds a mistake in the marker's scoring? Can the player change the score on a hole without consulting the marker? (No) If he does, is he DQ'd? (Yes)

[LobWedge]

The REAL questions are:
1) Does the punishment fit the crime? - Is disqualification the appropriate penalty for forgetting to sign your scorecard before you have "both feet outside the trailer". Remember, we're not talking about filling it out wrong or entering incorrect scores (which is fine BTW as the long as the scores are not lower) - we're talking about forgetting to scrawl something on the signature line.

Yes. Believe it or not, the player’s scorecard is the only official reckoning of his/her round, and unsigned, it is an incomplete document. Just like any other. Any other recording of that score (internet, on-course scoreboards, etc) is unofficial information only. You've gotta draw the line somewhere. The Tour drew theirs at the trailer door.

2) Should the PGA improve administrative procedures regarding scorecards? - Of course you cannot eliminate EVERY possible mistake that can happen, but should the people who manage the event do more to ensure that players do not make these silly mistakes? Or is it simply "sink or swim" when it comes to players and their scores?

No.
Why not let player’s take their coaches and shrinks along during the round too? And if he screws up a shot, he should be able to drop balls until he gets it right. It’s a cop out.

The "scorecard system" is laid out in The Rules of Golf (as indicated by BC MIST above), which is administered by the USGA - not the PGA Tour policy board. The USGA couldn't care less what the PGA players like. The only thing the PGA decides is at what point the scorecard "has been returned to the Committee".

Actually, the USGA, R&A and RCGA administer the rules of amateur golf worldwide. The PGA Tour, as a professional organization, uses the USGA model for the basis of their own rulebook and employs “local rules” specific to Tour-only situations. If they so chose, the Tour could re-write the entire rulebook and make the game look completely unrecognizable to the USGA, et al. and they could do nothing about it, except for the tournaments that they specifically govern (US Open, British Open, etc). It’s the same as the NHL and CAHA.

The math is irrelevant to Question #1. The number of times a rule is applied has no bearing on whether it is a good rule or a bad rule. The lawbooks are full of dumb, stupid rules (eg., in Florida it is illegal for an unmarried woman to parachute on Sundays!) - the fact that they are rarely applied does not make them any less stupid. You need to examine the rule on its own merits (or lack of them) to decide if it is good, bad, fair, unfair, appropriate, etc.

I agree. However, it’s up to the players to raise the issue with their Tour Policy Board and Rules Committee to get it changed. So far the majority hasn’t spoken.
The math is there to illustrate how infrequent this particular “problem” is.

[el tigre]

Yes. Believe it or not, the player’s scorecard is the only official reckoning of his/her round, and unsigned, it is an incomplete document. Just like any other. Any other recording of that score (internet, on-course scoreboards, etc) is unofficial information only. You've gotta draw the line somewhere. The Tour drew theirs at the trailer door.

Yeah, yeah - I know all that. But what NOBODY is saying is why - in YOUR opinion - is the penalty of disqualification appropriate and why is the trailer door the correct place to draw the line?

IMHO, the penalty is too severe and the line is drawn in the wrong place. I think a penalty of two strokes (stroke play) or a deduction of two holes (match play) would be more appropriate to the situation, providing that the scorecard is signed prior to playing a stroke from the next teeing ground, or in the case of the last round of the tournament, prior to returning it to the Committee. Why? Because we're not talking about someone cheating or gaining some sort of advantage by forgetting to sign their scorecard. It is simply an administrative mistake.

Why not let player’s take their coaches and shrinks along during the round too?

They do. They're called caddies.

And if he screws up a shot, he should be able to drop balls until he gets it right. It’s a cop out.

Please LobWedge, there is no need to get ridiculous.:dissappro The topic was administrative procedures.

Actually, the USGA, R&A and RCGA administer the rules of amateur golf worldwide. The PGA Tour, as a professional organization, uses the USGA model for the basis of their own rulebook and employs “local rules” specific to Tour-only situations. If they so chose, the Tour could re-write the entire rulebook and make the game look completely unrecognizable to the USGA, et al. and they could do nothing about it, except for the tournaments that they specifically govern (US Open, British Open, etc). It’s the same as the NHL and CAHA.

No, it is not the same as the NHL and CAHA. There is only one rulebook in golf, and it applies to all levels of play everywhere - it is an international standard that is used on ALL professional tours. In the rulebook, the PGA is basically recognized as a "committee", which under Rule 33 can "lay down the conditions under which a competition is to be played", but "has no power to waive a Rule of Golf".

If the PGA chose it re-write the entire rulebook and make the game look completely unrecognizable to the USGA - it would also be unrecognizable as golf.

[LobWedge]

Please LobWedge, there is no need to get ridiculous.:dissappro The topic was administrative procedures.

I was only wondering just how much hand-holding these guys actually need?

No, it is not the same as the NHL and CAHA. There is only one rulebook in golf, and it applies to all levels of play everywhere - it is an international standard that is used on ALL professional tours. In the rulebook, the PGA is basically recognized as a "committee", which under Rule 33 can "lay down the conditions under which a competition is to be played", but "has no power to waive a Rule of Golf".

If the PGA chose it re-write the entire rulebook and make the game look completely unrecognizable to the USGA - it would also be unrecognizable as golf.

Are you sure you're not confusing the PGA Tour with the PGA of America?

[el tigre]

What happens if the marker signs the card and leaves the scoring area, after which the player finds a mistake in the marker's scoring? Can the player change the score on a hole without consulting the marker? (No) If he does, is he DQ'd? (Yes)

Rule 6-6 c) states that "no alteration may be made on a card after the competitor has returned it to the Committee" - implying that an alteration may be made beforehand. Furthermore, under Rule 6-6 d) "The competitor is responsible for the correctness of the score for each hole on his card" - i.e., not the marker. A marker is defined as someone who simply "records a competitor's score", i.e., he does not verify it. Therefore, I believe that the player can change the score without consulting the marker, and without being DQ'd. Otherwise, an unscrupulous fellow-competitor could cause someone else to be DQ'd by making a mistake and refusing to correct it.

[BC MIST]

Rule 6-6 c) states that "no alteration may be made on a card after the competitor has returned it to the Committee" - implying that an alteration may be made beforehand. Furthermore, under Rule 6-6 d) "The competitor is responsible for the correctness of the score for each hole on his card" - i.e., not the marker. A marker is defined as someone who simply "records a competitor's score", i.e., he does not verify it. Therefore, I believe that the player can change the score without consulting the marker, and without being DQ'd. Otherwise, an unscrupulous fellow-competitor could cause someone else to be DQ'd by making a mistake and refusing to correct it.

I just checked my "Decisions on... Golf" on this one and it says that- 6-6b/7 "When the competitor alters the scorecard he invalidated the attestation of the score by the marker. Therefore, he effectively returned a scorecard which was not signed by the marker." Disqualification was the penalty. Had he informed the committee first, he would not have been subject to penalty. So the attestation by the marker is important.

I could not find what happens if the marker does not sign the card, inadvertently, and leaves.

[LobWedge]

FYI - I've sent an email to the RCGA asking for an expanation on the rationale behind the DQ penalty for Rule 6-6b. I'll let you know what happens.

I also tried the USGA and R&A, but they won't answer queries from outside their jursdiction. I'm also waiting to hear from a buddy of mine who may have a contact at the PGA Tour office so I can ask them the same question. He's at the PGA equipment show in Orlando, so I won't find out till next week.