Asking For A Ruling (Friendly Game)

[broken27]

With all this banter about "honour in golf" and the various accompanying situations, I was curious about one thing. I am relatively familiar with the rules of the game, and the accompanying etiquette, but sometimes I'm unclear.

In my billiards league, you can ask your opponent about rulings before making the shot you plan. Is it the same in golf? Can I ask about rules at ANY point in the game (not while my opponent is shooting or anything...)?

Obviously in a tourney, there are judges and officials to ask about it, and the situation where you play a provisional and then ask for a ruling comes up. But in cases where there is no official, are there restrictions on what kinds of rules questions I can ask, or who I ask them to?

Thanks,
Dan

[Kilroy]

You can ask about rules or yardages at any time. (information)

You cannot ask what shot or club to play (advice) Unless it is your partner whom you ask.

You cannot ask an FC what club they played, but you can look in his bag. Pro caddies sometimes throw a towel over the clubheads because of that.

[dbleber]

I know that you cannot ask what club a player used but can I say what club I used? I was playing last year and hit a shot with a 7 iron after the ball went over the green I said out loud that I new I should have went with an eight iron. The guys I was playing with told me politely that if I was in competition that I would be penalized for disclosing what club I used. It seemed odd at the time and I didn't think of it until reading this thread. Was he right?
Thanks
Denny

[Kilroy]

I'm sure you are allowed to say whatever you want. Just don't ask.

I am sure Gary will chime in if I am mistaken.

[BC MIST]

You can ask about rules or yardages at any time. (information)
You cannot ask what shot or club to play (advice) Unless it is your partner whom you ask.You cannot ask an FC what club they played, but you can look in his bag. Pro caddies sometimes throw a towel over the clubheads because of that.

My best guess on the bolded above is that you may ask for a yardage from markers or places that are fixed. From the tee to green-"How long is the hole? Or, "Where is the 150 marker?" Or, "How far is it from this tree to that bunker or water hazard?" All of this information is readily available or known.

But, you cannot ask an FC, "How far is it from my ball to the hole, or green or the bunker, or water hazard?" I think.

[BC MIST]

I know that you cannot ask what club a player used but can I say what club I used? I was playing last year and hit a shot with a 7 iron after the ball went over the green I said out loud that I new I should have went with an eight iron. The guys I was playing with told me politely that if I was in competition that I would be penalized for disclosing what club I used. It seemed odd at the time and I didn't think of it until reading this thread. Was he right?
Thanks Denny

Yes and No.

If you had just said, "Oh, damn, I should have used an 8," then no penalty would be incurred.

However, if you had done this from a par 3 or from the same location where one of your FC's had to play a shot, then you are penalized. I also believe that if you had hit the 7 iron and then said, "That was the best 8 iron I've ever hit," then your are deliberately trying to confuse your FC if he has a similar shot to play. Two shot penalty in stroke play occurs. But, if you do this an your FC's ball is 50 yards ahead, I don't know how this would be ruled.

You can also ask what club your FC's hit, if you have all reached the green or if it is from a previous hole.

Best solution for all of this is Don't ask, don't tell.

[broken27]

All good answers, but not really to the question I'm asking. I'm asking more in the line of application of rules.

"Am I supposed to take a drop in this situation?"
"Is this grounds under repair?"
"Two club lengths, or just one?"
"Can I hit a provisional in this case?"

That type of thing... I'm no rules expert, but I try to play as best I can within the normal "play it as it lies" guidelines. To me, I could see myself honestly missing a penalty for something because the rules of golf are so ridiculously detailled. There's no way I would invest enough time to figure out those intricacies unless someone was paying me to play golf by the rules.

Dan

[GarthM]

All good answers, but not really to the question I'm asking. I'm asking more in the line of application of rules.

"Am I supposed to take a drop in this situation?"
"Is this grounds under repair?"
"Two club lengths, or just one?"
"Can I hit a provisional in this case?"

That type of thing... I'm no rules expert, but I try to play as best I can within the normal "play it as it lies" guidelines. To me, I could see myself honestly missing a penalty for something because the rules of golf are so ridiculously detailled. There's no way I would invest enough time to figure out those intricacies unless someone was paying me to play golf by the rules.

Dan

All of the above are questions as to the rules, therefore you are allowed, and indeed expected to ask if you are unsure. You are right, the application of the rules can be confusing at times and that is why they have officials for rulings.

As for your questions above:

"Am I supposed to take a drop in this situation?" --- not so much "supposed to" as "should I" really. i.e. is the ball really that unplayable? The question around drops is most likely where is the NPR (nearest point of relief) from the hazard/unplayable lie/GUR etc.

"Is this grounds under repair?" -- If it's not marked or identified under the conditions of the day, probably not. Suck it up and bounce one off the hardpan!

"Two club lengths, or just one?" -- Rule of thumb: One's are free, Two's will cost you a stroke.

"Can I hit a provisional in this case?" -- You are the sole decision maker on that one. You may hit a provisional for any ball that may be lost or OB.

Browse the archives of the rules forum, you will be surprised how much you can learn in a short period of time.

Enjoy!

[el tigre]

All good answers, but not really to the question I'm asking. I'm asking more in the line of application of rules.

Dan, the short answer is "YES". You can ask a question about the RULES or their application at any time, to anyone.

To me, I could see myself honestly missing a penalty for something because the rules of golf are so ridiculously detailled. There's no way I would invest enough time to figure out those intricacies unless someone was paying me to play golf by the rules.

As a broomball referee, I had a good laugh at this one. There are only 34 rules and 3 appendices in golf, and I can fit the rulebook in my back pocket! It is well-written (for a rulebook), and I agree with Gary when he said that the vast majority of rules questions can be answered in the "definitions" section.

In broomball there are over 130 rules, and NHL hockey has just under 100. Most other sports have a similar number. As a hockey fan, you might want to check out the NHL Rulebook here:

http://couchpotatohockey.com/Dressin.../Rule_Book.asp

Try learning that one for your next pickup hockey game!

Of course, every other sport has a referee or umpire who is specifically hired and trained to apply the rules in each game for the players' benefit, while in golf it is the players themselves who are their own referees. Which means it is the players who are expected to read the rulebook.

Gives you a whole new appreciation for the work of referees, doesn't it?

[broken27]

Terry, I am very familiar with the rules of hockey, and have them memorized. They are generally not based on really minute detail. There is usually some fairly large-scale action taking place.

Believe me when I tell you, I was writing a column all of last season about how the game of hockey needed some changes, and most of my articles had to do with how tough it is to be a ref in hockey because of how there is pressure to allow certain glaringly obvious penalties go.

That's another difference with golf, none of the penalties are discretionary. The act of taking one might be, but not the application of the penalty.

Don't confuse me with a ref-hater or someone who can't memorize a rulebook. At this point in my life though, I just don't have time to worry about where my shorts are hemmed and how long I take to grab a beer at the turn. As you know, I'm pretty quick about that...

Dan

[el tigre]

Terry, I am very familiar with the rules of hockey, and have them memorized. They are generally not based on really minute detail. There is usually some fairly large-scale action taking place.

Heh, heh, heh. In sixteen years of officiating, I've heard this from players and coaches at least 100 times. It always ends the same way: I show them the rule in the rulebook and they walk away muttering "Gee, I didn't know that".

In my experience, you would be one of the very few non-officials who have actually read the rulebook, let alone memorized it. Most people have a "working knowledge" of the rules gained from playing and/or watching the sport - and the reason they gain that "working knowledge" is because there are always referees on hand who know the rules and apply them. They don't need to know the minute details because whenever a situation comes up that requires it, there is always a referee on hand.

Which leads to the point I was trying to make: Referees need to read the rulebook, and in golf you are your own referee. In golf, the players apply the rules - even the minute details. There are no referees on hand for your Saturday morning round to do it for you. If there were, you would gain a "working knowledge" of the rules in about 5 rounds and know most of the minute details in about 5 years! Instead, you get your rules information from other players - many of whom are as equally in the dark as you are. Hence the need for golfers to buy and read The Rules of Golf.