"Honour" in golf

[Kilroy]

I had an interesting discussion yesterday about honour in golf. For the sake of this discussion, we'll assume that a couple of bucks are on the line. Not a lot, just pocket change to spice things up in an otherwse friendly game.

It was put forth that it is dishonourable to "call" a fellow competitor on a rules violation. One should look the other way and avoid offending the player who violated the rule.

The other side of the debate was that pointing out a rule that has been violated is indeed honourable, and no "call" is made by the player who does this. The FC would be expected to do the "honourable" thing and apply the penalty to himself afer being made aware of the violation.

It was also suggested that "minor" violations are somehow different than "major" ones. Thake the 15th club for example. Perhaps the player has one of his kids clubs in the bag. The question parellels the other "14 Club" thread, but it's just being used as an example. Another example is if it makes no difference in the flow of the game. ie: If you have won the hole either way, would you choose not to stir the pot?

Unfortunately many people do get offended by someone pointing out a penalty that should be applied. Why is that so?

If you see a violation do you...
a) ignore it because you don't care anyway
b) point out the rule, but don't care if it gets applied
c) bite your toung and slowly simmer for the rest of the round saying nothing
d) inform your FC and expect them to apply the penalty to themself

If the shoe is on the other foot do you...
a) get offended
b) think your playing partner is anal and no fun
c) ignore the rules and just brush it off without a care and play on
d) accept your lumps, but feel attacked
e) take your penalty willingly, and without offence

Where does the "honour" belong in golf?

[el tigre]

For the sake of this discussion, we'll assume that a couple of bucks are on the line. Not a lot, just pocket change to spice things up in an otherwse friendly game.

IMHO, this fact makes ALL the difference. Not that the money itself is important, but the fact that you have now agreed to play a competitive round of golf vs a round of golf just for fun changes EVERYTHING.In fun rounds I really don't care what rules other people play by, but in a competition everybody has to play by the same rules. It doesn't bother me that much if everyone agrees on a "minor" modification here or there beforehand, but it has to be "by the book" - whatever that "book" is.

If you see a violation do you...
a) ignore it because you don't care anyway
b) point out the rule, but don't care if it gets applied
c) bite your toung and slowly simmer for the rest of the round saying nothing
d) inform your FC and expect them to apply the penalty to themself

Based on my answer above, in a competitive round I will choose d). In a round just for fun I typically choose a) but I sometimes choose b) if I think the person doesn't know about the rule.

If the shoe is on the other foot do you...
a) get offended
b) think your playing partner is anal and no fun
c) ignore the rules and just brush it off without a care and play on
d) accept your lumps, but feel attacked
e) take your penalty willingly, and without offence

Hasn't happened to me (yet), but I'm pretty sure I would choose e).

Where does the "honour" belong in golf?

Good question. IMHO, it belongs right at the top. You are supposed to be your own referee in golf, so for your own personal integrity and the integrity of the game you should try to do the best job of officiating your round as you can.

[Colby]

I agree with El Tigre, I don't mind playing any sort of round, even with modified rules as long as all parties agree to things before we start.

Golf is really a game where you are playing against yourself for the most part. If you don't play honourably, you are only cheating yourself.

[dbleber]

I play a lot of rounds were I go to the course by myself and join other groups and I have seen lots of "bending the rules", especially the winter rule. Some people I play with stick handle the ball across the fairway until the ball is setup on that perfect piece of grass and almost nobody that I have played with ever plays a provisional ball in a fun round on a busy Saturday. It just takes to long and you have people behind you lobbing balls at you like you were on an artillery range. I never say anything to other golfers because a) I don't know them b) I don't care about there scores and c) I joined there group and I don't want to be that guy everybody wants to leave in the bathroom at the turn around ( don't act like you haven't done it!!!).
Now when I was posted in Kingston we use to have an intersection league that was 2-ball best ball, it was still for fun but it was still a competition with rules and standings, playoffs the whole thing. One day I played with a 2 some who after their second shot chose to play ball A, so they picked up ball B and moved on to ball A to play their third shot. Once they got to ball A they no longer liked the looks of it and started walking back to where ball B was. I asked them where they were going?, they replied we don't like ball A anymore we'll play the other ball. I told them, but it is in your hand how will you know where to put it and once you choose your best ball and pick up the other one that you have to make due with your choice. This guy through a hissy fit and cried the whole round making little coments about taking things to seriously and that I was a real @$$hole for calling him on the rule. Finally I had to tell him that if he wanted he could just pick up is ball whenever he wanted, place it in the fairway, on the green or even in the hole and give himself whatever score he wanted because it was obviously the only kind of "golf" he could ever play. This shut him up but it was one of the longest rounds I ever played and I couldn't wait to get rid of him. :reallymad

I still think I was right for calling him and I have been dying to get that story off my chest for awhile as you can tell by the length of this post. Sorry My point is if its for fun who cares but as soon as it gets competitve and you playing to win or lose then play by the rule book.
Denny

[broken27]

There is nothing honourable or dishonourable about pointing out a foul/penalty. In my mind, the whole question of honour lies with the offending party.

Now, in terms of application, I'd have to say that I agree with the idea that the money makes a difference, because now your FC's transgression of the rules could end up costing you money. Usually we all agree to whatever the game "rules" will be for the round, but since I'm now tracking handicap, I apply the rules as best I can for each round.

Dan

Dan

[golfmania]

Interesting debate. I play for a couple of bucks with friends, just as you describe in the initial thread, and while we respect the rules, we also say to each other: Play exactly as you would normally.

Thus one of us has a weighted club in the bag, no problem.
We play prefered lie if the fairway is damaged for whatever reason.
If someone screamed just as a friend is shooting, any one of us would say "take it again".
Etc.

While we enjoy the money, we agree that the variations just don't add up either way, and taking it too seriously ruins the fun. Both of use take minor liberties. It all works out in the end. The winner often buys beer anyway.

[EDSGOLF]

I personally will not call another player if they have 15 clubs with money or no money on the line, I won't even think about counting their clubs, so I do not care. I personally do not think an extra club can make that much of a difference.

[Kilroy]

In a practice round or a very casual game, not for money, it could easily be considered offensive to point out an infraction.


In a money game there is an expectation to play the rules of competition as defined. Group "A" may follow a more relaxed set of rules that group "B", but within either group there are still infractions that some may feel too intimidated to point out.

[jeffc]

most of the guys I play with are not that serious and I adjust to the group. While I prefer to play by the rules to the best of my knowledge, I'll admit I don't always.

To answer your question, if it were a competitive round, I might make a comment if it were to a friend I were playing with. I don't often play with people I don't know so I'm not sure I would make a comment otherwise.

If someone made a comment to me, I would appreciate it, since I do not always know the rule in every situation. I guess it would be a rule I didn't know I was breaking. I wouldn't care if he had 14 or 15 clubs to be honest.

[LobWedge]

I had an interesting discussion yesterday about honour in golf. For the sake of this discussion, we'll assume that a couple of bucks are on the line. Not a lot, just pocket change to spice things up in an otherwse friendly game.

It was put forth that it is dishonourable to "call" a fellow competitor on a rules violation. One should look the other way and avoid offending the player who violated the rule.

The other side of the debate was that pointing out a rule that has been violated is indeed honourable, and no "call" is made by the player who does this. The FC would be expected to do the "honourable" thing and apply the penalty to himself afer being made aware of the violation.

It was also suggested that "minor" violations are somehow different than "major" ones. Thake the 15th club for example. Perhaps the player has one of his kids clubs in the bag. The question parellels the other "14 Club" thread, but it's just being used as an example. Another example is if it makes no difference in the flow of the game. ie: If you have won the hole either way, would you choose not to stir the pot?

Unfortunately many people do get offended by someone pointing out a penalty that should be applied. Why is that so?

If you see a violation do you...
a) ignore it because you don't care anyway
b) point out the rule, but don't care if it gets applied
c) bite your toung and slowly simmer for the rest of the round saying nothing
d) inform your FC and expect them to apply the penalty to themself

If the shoe is on the other foot do you...
a) get offended
b) think your playing partner is anal and no fun
c) ignore the rules and just brush it off without a care and play on
d) accept your lumps, but feel attacked
e) take your penalty willingly, and without offence

Where does the "honour" belong in golf?

You and I have been there before Dan. If you recall, the money that was involved at the time was tour money not personal funds. The individual in question was my teammate at the Pakenham event last year.

I had my back to the green pulling my putter out of my bag when you happened to catch him tapping in while the pin was still in the hole. He was unaware of that specific rule, you informed him of the violation. I agreed knowing full well that the 2 stroke penalty would count against the team, but also knowing that no matter how small the violation seemed it was still a violation and that the rule was not applied to punish him/us but to protect the rest of the field and preserve the integrity of the game. Its as simple as that.

Sure he complained a litttle bit but in the end I think he realized that it wasn't such a big deal, and he sure won't do that again.

[Andru]

If you see a violation do you...
a) ignore it because you don't care anyway
b) point out the rule, but don't care if it gets applied
c) bite your toung and slowly simmer for the rest of the round saying nothing
d) inform your FC and expect them to apply the penalty to themself

If the person is comparing their score to mine whether it's money or not. d)

If they're to themselves, who cares.

If the shoe is on the other foot do you...
a) get offended
b) think your playing partner is anal and no fun
c) ignore the rules and just brush it off without a care and play on
d) accept your lumps, but feel attacked
e) take your penalty willingly, and without offence

e) always but you better be darn right because I don't take it well when people point out false rules violations. If I have commited a violation, I am quite appreciative. There's nothing worse than posting a dishonest score.

[Kilroy]

You and I have been there before Dan. If you recall, the money that was involved at the time was tour money not personal funds.

Sure I recall. I have thought of that often. In my opinion, the whole thing was handled properly by all parties. No offence intended nor taken.

[NoBack]

I personally will not call another player if they have 15 clubs with money or no money on the line, I won't even think about counting their clubs, so I do not care. I personally do not think an extra club can make that much of a difference.

The club in question is a "kids" club that was not knowingly put in daddy's bag. It never would have been used and IMO would not affect the outcome of ANY shot or hole or skin or cleaner or CTP ....... So, call my dishounrable if I dont care if that guy had his daughter's club in his bag when he won a cleaner.

[BC MIST]

Ah ha. A thread with some meat.

If you are playing for money, playing in a tournament or playing a round that is going to be used for handicapping purposes, you play by the rules. If you see someone about to make a mistake, you say something. If they still play it wrong, you call them. If they do the same to you, you thank them, and you learn.

I am fortunate enough to still be able to play in OVGA, QGA and one RCGA tournament. It is so much more fun playing by the rules with good players, where there is no concern whatsoever, about anyone dinking around with the rules. Contrast this with some club tournaments, Intersectional qualifying, where making the "Team" is life and death, knowing that a number of players are cheating either on their handicaps or moving the ball, or both. Although it is a good challenge to have to be 3 strokes better than them, to beat them by 1.

I have seen a lot of cheating over the years and have called a few, and each time I was severaly berated, and one time I held a wedge over my shoulder to lessen the threat. I was reluctant, at times, to say anything,( OK, a "gutless puke," Bobby Clarke), however, I do speak up now.

In the fall I played in a tournament with two former know-it-all, arrogant, CPGA pros, who decided that the nearest point of relief was 50 yards from where it actually was. After I showed where they had to play from they decided to go back down the fairway to a very advantageous position. I then informed them, it was a 2 man scramble, that if they played from there, that they would get disqualified. Now, did the cow dung hit the fan. There were more concerned about hearing the word disqualified than they were about the fact that they were about to cheat, with hundreds of $$$ on the line. I told them to go ahead and do what they wanted. They eventually and reluctantly played from the right spot, and while walking down the next fairway, still questioning me, one said, "We are former CPGA...," meaning "Who the hell are you to tell us what to do." Before he finished his sentence I said, "Then you would think that you'd now the rules." and just walked away. The remaining 11 holes could not have ended soon enough.

A good measure of the true character of a man, is how they treat women and animals, how they drive a car, and how they conduct themselves on the golf course. Obviously, I have no use for cheaters.

To answer Dan"s question: (d) and (e)

[golfmania]

One could make the argument that to play "honourable" golf, no money, at all, should be involved. The true result is the score.

The original thread implied a "friendly game" and a "couple of bucks". Competitive golf is at the other end of the spectrum, or the OG tour for that matter, where a level playing field is expected.

As El Tigre pointed out, if everyone knows what rules are being applied, than its E all the way (take the penalty without offence).

If its a group of friends, drinking beer, goofing around, shooting with each other for years, I question WHAT GOOD COULD POSSIBLY COME from pointing out an infraction.

Other than a competitive setting, where hostility does rise, has anyone ever had any problems with a betting game? I haven't.

[broken27]

One could make the argument that to play "honourable" golf, no money, at all, should be involved. The true result is the score.

The original thread implied a "friendly game" and a "couple of bucks". Competitive golf is at the other end of the spectrum, or the OG tour for that matter, where a level playing field is expected.

As El Tigre pointed out, if everyone knows what rules are being applied, than its E all the way (take the penalty without offence).

If its a group of friends, drinking beer, goofing around, shooting with each other for years, I question WHAT GOOD COULD POSSIBLY COME from pointing out an infraction.

Other than a competitive setting, where hostility does rise, has anyone ever had any problems with a betting game? I haven't.

Holy shnikey!!!! We agree on something!

Dan

[el tigre]

The original thread implied a "friendly game" and a "couple of bucks". Competitive golf is at the other end of the spectrum...

That's not how I would define "competitive golf". To me "competitive golf" happens ANY TIME you are testing your skill against other people rather than just the course. It makes no difference to me what the stakes are - if your score is to be compared to others then everyone has to play by the same rules.

If its a group of friends, drinking beer, goofing around, shooting with each other for years, I question WHAT GOOD COULD POSSIBLY COME from pointing out an infraction.

First of all, most people learn the rules by trial and error. If you DON'T KNOW that you are committing an infraction, then THIS is the time and place you want to find out about it.

Secondly, friends are supposed to be honest with each other. You don't cheat on your friends, even if it is only a "couple of bucks". By pointing out an infraction, I will probably find out that the reason for it was a) they didn't know the rules, b) they misunderstood the rules, or c) they thought they wouldn't get caught. If the answer is c), then THIS is the time and place I want to find out about it.

Other than a competitive setting, where hostility does rise, has anyone ever had any problems with a betting game? I haven't.

I don't quite understand where you're coming from here. ANY betting game that relies on skill rather than chance means you have a competitive setting. And yeah, I've seen plenty of problems.

[jimrobin]

On a weekend golf trip to Tremblant with 8 buddies we were playing a 3 day Ryder Cup format for bragging rights and some cash. That day we were playing a 2-man better ball match and I called an infraction against the other team.

The infraction was, Player A & B are teammates. While on the putting green, Player "A" goes to mark his ball, at that point Player "B" asks his teammate not to mark it but to leave the ball on the green so he could use it to help him with his line. After the ball was struck and is still rolling, Player "A" runs up and picks up his ball so the balls don't hit.

When I pointed out the rule that was violated, I was told to quit being a jerk by both guys and also my teammate. I ended up bitting my lip and moved on.

The worst part was, they ended up winning the hole.
What a loser I am!!

[byerxa]

Being a hack and playing with hacks, I find it rarely becomes and issue for me. One group I play with, I am the better golfer and I am like the tax collector when we play skins, so I'd be a jerk to say anything. Another group I play with are better players and they typically play by the book, hence there is rarely an issue. If it matters, I'll do d) when I see something, and I'll generally be accepting of something being pointed out to me. However, it rarely happens - most people I play with kind of chuckle at how much I am a stickler with my own game (but my index is genuine).

I like the story about the CPGA guys starting the "We are former CPGA..." crap. I held my pro motocross license back in the 80's (pro-am in the States) and actually finished 4th in Ontario one year. However, I'd never start that bull if I was riding around these days because its lame. That was the past and there were still at least 200-300 riders in the world faster than me (multiply by at least 100 for racing to golf participant ratio), so I was not that good. You'd think playing by the rules would be the least they could do...

[1972Apex]

Competition is competiton and practice is practice. Play by the rules in competition and don't worry about the rules when you practice.
Tour pros know this. I volunteered at the DuMaurier Open in 2000. In practice rounds the pros broke every rule you could thing of... but on Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday they were calling officials over to discuss rules I didn't know existed.

[golfmania]

Secondly, friends are supposed to be honest with each other. You don't cheat on your friends, even if it is only a "couple of bucks". By pointing out an infraction, I will probably find out that the reason for it was a) they didn't know the rules, b) they misunderstood the rules, or c) they thought they wouldn't get caught. If the answer is c), then THIS is the time and place I want to find out about it.

Which is true if people don't know the rules. Even if I was with A FRIEND who didn't, I wouldnt call him on it, I'd just clear up the rules next time. Seeing as we are all constantly going out, buying rounds, treating each other to the odd game, breaking up a restaurant tab evenly even tho one person had 4 beer and another had one, hosting parties, etc., the ODD DOLLAR UNEVEN HERE AND THERE DOESNT MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE IN THE BIG SCHEME OF THINGS.

[mpare]

Secondly, friends are supposed to be honest with each other. You don't cheat on your friends, even if it is only a "couple of bucks". By pointing out an infraction, I will probably find out that the reason for it was a) they didn't know the rules, b) they misunderstood the rules, or c) they thought they wouldn't get caught. If the answer is c), then THIS is the time and place I want to find out about it.

Which is true if people don't know the rules. Even if I was with A FRIEND who didn't, I wouldnt call him on it, I'd just clear up the rules next time. Seeing as we are all constantly going out, buying rounds, treating each other to the odd game, breaking up a restaurant tab evenly even tho one person had 4 beer and another had one, hosting parties, etc., the ODD DOLLAR UNEVEN HERE AND THERE DOESNT MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE IN THE BIG SCHEME OF THINGS.

I agree with the above statement. The only thing that I would add is that if you're in a competition in which the field is expected to comply with the rules, then I would point out the infraction, and would expect compliance with that rule. If not, then I wouldn't sign the other guys card. I've had a rules infraction pointed out to me; I've thanked the person who brought it to my attention and took my lumps. One thing you learn from that experience is never to make that same mistake again.

The honour code is one of the biggest differences between golf and other sports. Golfers are expected to honour the rules. Compliance is unconditional. By contrast, other sports seem to operate on the assumption that it is your duty to try to hoodwink the refs and umps. I'll give you an example. I was playing American Legion baseball. Normally a center fielder, I was asked to play first base. On one play, the first base umpire called the runner out. However, for reasons that I cannot recall, his view of the play had been obstructed and the home base umpire missed it too. An argument ensued - what else can you expect, this isn't golf. I turned to the first base umpire and told him that I had missed the base. He reversed his call and my coach benched me for my behaviour. I guess I got confused and thought that baseball, like golf, was also played with honour. Oh, and less you think that I am simply a simpering wimp who really didn't care about the outcome of the game, I can only say that you never saw me play.

[NoBack]

I had an interesting discussion yesterday about honour in golf ....... It was put forth that it is dishonourable to "call" a fellow competitor on a rules violation. One should look the other way and avoid offending the player who violated the rule.

This all came up during a conversation about what if a kid's club, was found at the bottom of a golf bag during a round. Would you call someone on it. Remember this is a 24 inch "kid's" club that will not be used. I said no while Dan said he would. As for the question at hand ..................... d) and e)

[Kilroy]

As I recall, the conversation did begin around the 14 club thread. I said I'd ask the player to apply the penalty strokes. Then it came up "what if it's a kid's club" my response was, "So where do you draw the line?"
I am not really a hard-ass, but for someone (not Steve or I) to say "Golf is a game of honour, and there is no honour in calling a player on a rules infraction" is just wrong.

"I'd never call you on that even though it is against the rules." While that may be a nice gesture, it is a misguided one.

The dishonour is when the player does not accept the call and puts up an argument. No need to get upset. If you do not accept the call, play two balls and settle it when you can find a rulebook. The rulebook should be the difinitive answer. If you can't understand the rule, Gary is here to settle all.

[NoBack]

The dishonour is when the player does not accept the call and puts up an argument. No need to get upset. If you do not accept the call, play two balls and settle it when you can find a rulebook. The rulebook should be the difinitive answer.

Agreed

[LobWedge]

Competition is competiton and practice is practice. Play by the rules in competition and don't worry about the rules when you practice.
Tour pros know this. I volunteered at the DuMaurier Open in 2000. In practice rounds the pros broke every rule you could thing of... but on Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday they were calling officials over to discuss rules I didn't know existed.

I hope you're not posting your 15+ club "practice" rounds for your handicap index.

[1972Apex]

Of course not...
In fact I haven't calculated or kept a handicap in years, or played a tournament, or played for money. The only competitive golf I've played is a couple of Golf-o-Max Cleaners games with the guys on this forum.
Golf is fun.

[el tigre]

Secondly, friends are supposed to be honest with each other. You don't cheat on your friends, even if it is only a "couple of bucks". By pointing out an infraction, I will probably find out that the reason for it was a) they didn't know the rules, b) they misunderstood the rules, or c) they thought they wouldn't get caught. If the answer is c), then THIS is the time and place I want to find out about it.

Which is true if people don't know the rules. Even if I was with A FRIEND who didn't, I wouldnt call him on it, I'd just clear up the rules next time.

Yeah, I can understand that. If your friend doesn't know the rules then there is no INTENTION to cheat you - its just a mistake. In that case I would certainly point out the infraction but not necessarily apply the penalty - this time.

But I've seen people cheat on their friends ON PURPOSE many times, and they always use the "don't be a jerk" line to get away with it. I'm talking about "foot wedges", mulligans, creative score-keeping, etc. EVERYBODY knows they have no place in a competitive round. I'm sure the players in jimrobin's example knew they were breaking the rules, but they cheated anyway because they thought they could get away with it. I have no time for these bums and I really couldn't care less what they think of me for calling them on it.

[Colby]

One other point is if you are going to compare your score with mine, make sure we have played by the same rules, especially if they are bragging about scoring lower than you.

[BullDog]

#1 - I would point out the rule but wouldn't go much past that... no point in setting off someone who might make things miserable the rest of the game.

#2 - E, but I would be irritated that I actually did something that put me in that position to begin with (who *likes* hitting a shot out of bounds? same thing!) But to keep things fair and assuming that I didn't know I did something wrong and didn't call it myself, that's the game, that's how it goes!

Mike

If you see a violation do you...
a) ignore it because you don't care anyway
b) point out the rule, but don't care if it gets applied
c) bite your toung and slowly simmer for the rest of the round saying nothing
d) inform your FC and expect them to apply the penalty to themself

If the shoe is on the other foot do you...
a) get offended
b) think your playing partner is anal and no fun
c) ignore the rules and just brush it off without a care and play on
d) accept your lumps, but feel attacked
e) take your penalty willingly, and without offence

Where does the "honour" belong in golf?