HD golf simulator

[bubba22]

Just though I would start a discussion on some of the simulator numbers (ball spin, launch, direction and club data- path and face angle) and how well or not so well these numbers add up. Some of the sims like the HD golf sim are quite expensive and claim to be the most "accurate" by measuring everything directly. Have a look at the hd numbers in this video around the 2 min and 4 min mark. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZ9Dhv-JJ34 The spin and tilt as well as direction and ball speed numbers are off wi. The club and ball don't jive and as such how can the flight be accurately represented. Maybe its just for that one shot but that certainly doesn't look right.

[ZMax]

The HD golf sim uses four cameras. 2 cameras near the screen are used in stereo for measuring LA, ball speed and azimuth, I believe. One camera directly above for the club and one camera above for measuring ball spin and spin axis. A small reflective strip is put on the ball to help the spin cam.

After watching those videos, I completely agree with you bubba22. A lot of measurements don't add up. Spin axis of 18* and total spin of over 6500 rpm? Makes you really wonder if these companies even care about accuracy. Put out a product, call it the best ever, and charge a ton of money for it seems to be the their MO.

[thenootz]

Indeed bubba22,
Also SS 108.8 mph and total distance only 211 yds (even on 6000+rpm) seems very unlikely... I won't jump to any conclussions but I would be very puzzled to see this feedback...am I missing something?

[bubba22]

Again, maybe there is an explaination for this, or it was a bad register, who know. It just seems to me that the correlation between the club data, ball data and flight in accordance to the New ball flight rules is way off with these numbers. In fact a lot of camera only sims do struggle with club and ball data correlation and eventual ball flight. Just an observation as we start to become more critical with the actual numbers presented to us. Again that morphing of the simple golf simulation with launch monitor like data.

[ZMax]

The system might not have been calibrated correctly for club speed and ball speed. You would think that they would be extra careful since it's for a show.

Spin axis of 18 degree and a slight draw means that spin was not used for the simulation. Why wasn't it used? Perhaps because they know their spin measurements are not accurate enough?

[bubba22]

I see no explanation for this. Anybody able to explain theses results or are the numbers just off and not used as Z says?

[TheGolfer]

Just a reminder to be careful and not assume "accuracy" for these complete systems that are very expensive. I can't speak for HD golf since I didn't test that one but in my research I was considering an About Golf 3track system (latest) which they would install in my home for ~ 30-35k. Most of the expense for these systems is the enclosure, setup, install, etc versus sensor technology. I compared shaped shots from About Golf 3track, prior version of About Golf before 3track, TruGolf TruTrack, and Foresight GC2 for shaping shots left / right along with carry projections and the foresight GC2 did the best in representing the shots more closely to what the ball flight does outdoors. In fairness the trugolf system doesn't measure spin and I don't believe the About golf system prior to 3track did either so you can't expect them to be similar. The newer 3track from about golf does measure spin but poorly unless you have the specially marked balls with hash marks all over.

One attractive feature I find from HD golf is their course pictures look very nice but sounds like Foresight is in process of partnering with a 3rd party besides redchain to get similar type of images (haven't seen myself but based on talk on the forum).

[bubba22]

Well, I have played with the HD sim on many occasions and don't like the real courses at all. There is only 1 ball view option and the tree movements etc are not that great. The HD claim accurate spin and ball measurement as well as club measurement. The point is club and ball measurement and correlation of that is not that simple to do. I agree with ZMax that we should question all sims, including camera based sims like About golf, HD golf, GC2 as well as sensor based (Protee, GSA etc) and radar based. If they claim to directly measure club and ball then the data needs to make sense.

[ZMax]

As a reminder, it's no good to have anything measured if the system is not measuring it as accurately as possible. This is very true of spin and spin axis. I don't want to hear about BS manufacture's claims.

[TheGolfer]

The only company I can find that will publish ball launch error tolerances publicly was foresight for the gc2. Before the others can improve they need to first publish what their tolerances are in the first place. There is a reason they won't publish the data.

Below is a foresight link where they document the error tolerances below...

http://www.foresightsports.com/produ...-camera-system


Capture Range

Ball Speed:2.0 - 200.00 mphDistance:8 inches - 500+ ydsLaunch Angle:70.0 degreesAccuracy Tolerance

Vertical Launch Angle:+/- 0.2 degreesBall Speed:+/- 0.5 mphBack Spin:+/- 50.0 rpmSide Spin:+/- 50.0 rpmAzimuth:+/- 1.0 degrees

[ZMax]

TheGolfer, can you explain to us how the GC2 measures spin and spin axis. I.E. how the GC2 captures the ball, how many captures, etc...

Btw, what do you think about the HMT? Looks cool but too rich for my blood.

[bubba22]

Almost all sims will give their tolerances. How those numbers are derived and how accurate they are is smother question. I still question all sims including the Protee , GSA, GC2 etc despite what is published.

[TheGolfer]

I could not find any ball launch characteristic error tolerances for trugolf, gsa, protee, about golf. i am not talking about how they measure the club (ie 1.2345 degrees open/closed) but the actual ball launch results from the swing - speed, azimuth, spin, launch angle. if you have this data please post it - i searched long and hard and could not find the data. i have emailed the companies also but didn't get the data. i know gsa posts accuracy for measuring club head data with his sensors but we play golf not golf club.

i am not really a sim technologist so i don't know the technology as well as the folks on the forum. honestly all that matters to me is i know my club carries and typical left/right shot patterns along with my average misses and when i test each one which one produces shots that are the closest to what i see outside. every company likes to say they are accurate so without a standard measurement this is the only test that matters to me. since i am using it for a teaching aid i didn't have a bias toward any specific technology just the one that when tested produced results that looked closest to outdoors.

i am sure foresight won't publicize the details on how they measure or their algorithms since its proprietary and they are competing against trackman.

not really interested in their club head attachment. i would like to measure angle of attack for driver though. noticed other postings on MSRP and it was too much for me. if it were max a couple hundred (not thousand) bucks for an add-on maybe i would consider it. thought i heard it does lie angle also but not sure - honestly i wouldn't trust anything but simple lie board and lie tape and i would think most fitters would also.

not sure who the target market really is for the club head data. i know some of the sim users like it but for foresight the sim market i think is very small. they have demonstrated to several core home sim users that they are not that interested in communicating with this market segment. seems like their primary market is mostly club fitters / teachers. fitters don't really need the club head data since they can see ball flight. i know they are competing against trackman who immediately says foresight doesn't do both club head and ball measurements. perhaps its a response to that? not sure.

[bubba22]

Well for a complete system, to really know what your club is doing, I would suggest you really look to get this HMT add on. I personally love knowing and having my club data!!

[ZMax]

If you had searched just a little harder on the GSA website you would have found the page that shows photographic evidence of ball LA, path, and ball speed and how they are measured or actually, calculated. This might be news to you but the GC2 also calculates these three data points. And as far as I know, the GC2 does not provide any photographic evidence of these 3 data points, not that the user can see anyway.

As for spin, you do know that spin can be estimated from club path and club face, right? How the club impacts the ball will determine the spin axis of the ball. The term estimate is used because the software assumes a square impact and because it's not a direct calculation of spin from the ball. Common sense tells you that gear effect from driver toe hits will not be accurate, obviously. But the accuracy of the spin estimation is based on the accuracy of the club path and face readings for most shots. People that have actually used the Protee and GSA will tell you that the spin estimation is very good. Is it as good as the GC2's spin calculation? I'll let you know when I can test it side by side along with my GSA. And yes, I did say calculation because that is exactly what the GC2 is doing. Protee and GSA's spin estimation might be just as good, worst, or even better than the GC2 spin calculation.

Although, this might all be a moot point once Protee and/or GSA come out with a spin cam. I know that both are working on this so it's just a matter of time.

[bubba22]

Here is a nice video with Jerry Kelly and the HD Golf simulator. Very cool!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyEy2...eature=related

[bubba22]

Check out this video. Dude shanks it and hard to see ball flight on screen? The next shots ok but no spin or spin axis recorded/ What gives with a system that is $50,000???? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cpi9WFmI-uE

[ZMax]

Bubba22, it's called "HD" Golf Simulator. HD is synonymous with everything that is good I guess. As Stu said, "it's the most realistic virtual golf simulator in the world." The system reported the guy's shank as a 71 yard drive and as you said, the software didn't show the ball at all. A lot of hype out there.

[bubba22]

....then the next shot no spin/spin axis shown???

[ZMax]

At $50K, you would expect it to work. Then again, I'm having a hard time believing that it suppose to measure spin and spin axis with just one camera from above. This is not easy to do. Aboutgolf does it all with two cameras.

[bubba22]

Yes I agree. I suspect they are estimating spin axis from the total spin and club data.

[japsheeh]

I tested an HD Golf system last weekend. I am considering installing one in my home. I thought it was really great. They must have added some features to the software since this review, because they had a few ball view options. e.g., you could add a "shot tracer" type thing to the ball, to make it easier to track the ball flight and shot shape. Also, on par 3s, if you are going to hit the green, the view will flip around to show the ball approaching. Distances and trajectories seemed pretty accurate. The screen was also noticeably quieter than others I have hit into. I thought chipping and pitching were hard to adjust too, because you might be hitting a 30 yard pitch, but the screen is only 10 feet away and they flag looks like it is right there in front of you. It messes with your brain. Same issue with long putts. Its just hard to get the proper depth perception. Also, there doesn't seem to be any option to add wind and shots out of rough and sand fly just like normal shots (though you can hit out of special turf that is supposed to replicate rough or sand). Playing a course like Pacific Dunes (which they have) without wind is unrealistic and takes a lot of the challenge out. HD Golf has really amazing courses. They only have about 20 at this point, but all 20 are courses that I would love to play. Old Course, Bethpage Black, Torrey Pines, Pac Dunes, Pebble Beach, Pinehurst #2, to name a few. I can't imagine being able to play those anytime I wanted to. I trust they will continue to develop new courses and to improve their software and add new features over time. I'd really like to see them add wind. They also have an integrated camera/swing analysis system, so you don't have to set up a separate v1 system or what have you. If money was no object, I think I would go with HD Golf, due to the accuracy, course selection, and ease of use/set up (they do it all for you) but that is just my opinion.

[bubba22]

Well you seem to have convinced yourself that HD golf is for you. Go for it and keep us posted.

[japsheeh]

Well you seem to have convinced yourself that HD golf is for you. Go for it and keep us posted.

Part of writing that was trying to convince myself . Truth is I wish the choice was more clear. I prefer HD Golf to aboutGolf, but I am also going to demo the Full Swing simulator with the "Ion Spin Cam" to see how that feels. The addition of the high speed camera to their system makes it interesting. I hadn't even heard of it when I made my first post. I have about 6-8 months before I have to make a decision.

[bubba22]

Good luck. Keep us posted!

[Dax]

New here and just wanted to post my observations with the HD Gold Sim. I agree with what everyone else has said here wrt the image, I think that these guys have done a great job on the graphics side of things and this in my view puts them apart from the rest. However, there were things about this sim that forced me to stop considering buying one. While I agree with the chipping and putting issues noted above, I think those were mainly coming from me rather than the sim for the most part. The one thing that I could not get any resolution on were the numbers and the distances. I played on the sim with a friend of mine and we both drive the ball within 10 to 15 yards of the other (I'm slightly longer), and what we could not believe was the sim seemed to be calculating his drives 20 yards shorter than his average and mine were all 20 yards further. This became too unrealistic and when we questioned the owner we were informed that this was common issue that they had been seeing (anything under 240 or 250 came up 20 yards shorter and anything over 20 yards longer). In all honesty, this was a few years ago now, but it was enough to make me take this one off the list.

I note comparing the HD sim with AboutGolf, for me, AboutGolf came out on top between the two (mainly as a result of the fact that everything else between the two were similar but that on AG, mine and my friends shots were measuring consistently to what we typically see (especially on the driver).

I have still not pulled the trigger, but am about to in the next couples of months (just a little more research needed).

[bubba22]

Research more Dax. This issue with HD has for the most part been solved. I still question some of their data however. the issues with HD is the software with real images. Their spin cam has helped but one needs marked balls.

[Dax]

Thanks Bubba, I actually stopped researching HD sim's after this experience as I felt others were further ahead and for the money it turned me right off of them.

This of course is just me, but with all of the other alternatives out there it was too much for me to keep them on my list. Appreciate the update though!