Trackman 3 indoor unit with E6 feedback

[bubba22]

I think the measurement of spin tilt with radar is more complicated than one thinks, especially indoors. I just spoke with the Trackman techs in the US and they confirmed that Trackman with E6 ---> E6 takes the Trackman data and applies it to the E6 engine. Honum can you verify with your contacts that this is not the case. Not that it matters, like I said Trackman is very accurate and a great launch monitor. My point was that the simulator engine is as important as the hardware measuring the data!

[ZMax]

Good luck with your decision playsted. The Parallel software agreement does make the decision more complicated. That software looks amazing. The Trackman, unlike the GC2, can be used easily for both left and right handers during simulation play.

[playsted]

It guess it's all relative. Getting ball position and velocity using microwaves 20,000+ times a second, that's complicated. Calculating spin axis from that data, not so much.

[playsted]

Good luck with your decision playsted. The Parallel software agreement does make the decision more complicated. That software looks amazing. The Trackman, unlike the GC2, can be used easily for both left and right handers during simulation play.

Also, I'd like clubhead data for practice/learning.purposes. If I did that with GC2, the cost is basically the same as Trackman. I guess I don't need that information, but would be nice.

[bubba22]

You should get te Trackman! If has everything you want.

[playsted]

You should get te Trackman! If has everything you want.

If only it was cheaper! If it was $10k or something I'd probably go for it. Going to wait for the PGA show at the least. Flightscope Xi looks pretty interesting at that price point and hopefully more info at the PGA show. Still have some work to do to the house before I'm ready for the sim anyway.

Cheers.

[Honum]

I think the measurement of spin tilt with radar is more complicated than one thinks, especially indoors. I just spoke with the Trackman techs in the US and they confirmed that Trackman with E6 ---> E6 takes the Trackman data and applies it to the E6 engine. Honum can you verify with your contacts that this is not the case. Not that it matters, like I said Trackman is very accurate and a great launch monitor. My point was that the simulator engine is as important as the hardware measuring the data!

Bubba22, I've made the guy that actually codes the integration from TrackMan's side aware of this thread...with a bit of luck he might elaborate on how things work

[Andreas]

Ok, to clear things up:

1. Ballflight

When you hit a shot with TrackMan/E6, the entire ballflight are calculated by TrackMan ballflight algorithms.
This data is then forwarded to E6, which then draws the trajectory untouched until it collides with their world. Then they take over and renders the last part of the shot. This is when the ball hits something that isn't air (trees, fairway, green, bunker, water etc).

2. Shortgame

TrackMan measures shortgame down to the range of ~6ft. Concept is the same as full shots - entire ballflight is sent to E6.

3. Putting

Putting with only a TrackMan is currently not avaliable. What you can do if you would like to have the full indoor golf experience is to extend the system with a TruTrac Mini (http://trugolf.com/golf_simulator/tracking_system.php) for putting purposes only.

4. Spin axis

When indoors TrackMan determines the spinaxis from the short amount of ballflight combined with club data. This way of determining the spin axis is very good except for off center impacts with woods (note that it is only off center impact in the heel-toe dimension which is an issue). The way TrackMan determines the spin axis indoors does not take into account the gear-effect which affects spin axis.
Example (right hand): Say, you hit it on the toe-side, then the spin axis should be more negative (draw), but isn't indoors.

When outdoors, TrackMan determines the spin axis from the measured aerodynamics which is quite accurate.

Regards,
Andreas Willadsen
Engineer
TrackMan A/S

[Honum]

Thanks Andreas, great with an official response...saves me being the middle man with whatever misunderstandings I could introduce

...and I'm glad to hear that I WAS right in saying that TrackMan handles the entire ball flight in E6 until the ball hits either scenery or the ground

Regards,
Jon Honum

Custom Golf, Denmark

[wbealsd]

Thanks to both of you for clarifying these points and WELCOME to this forum!

[ZMax]

Honum, I'll remind you that you were wrong on putting and spin axis. As for the ball flight simulation, Trugolf says different.

Andreas, thanks for coming on heree. Can you explain what data Trackman sends to E6?

[Honum]

Honum, I'll remind you that you were wrong on putting and spin axis.

I never said that putting was a supported feature. I said "It does actually feature putting, but it's disabled in a config option at the moment, so I reckon its something they are working on.". I did attempt to activate it and got readings (which were not usable because of bump I have in the playing direction that the ball rolls over)...wether I was just "lucky" to get readings I don't know...but I did. I also couldn't help but notice that Andreas said "Putting with only a TrackMan is currently not avaliable"...so maybe it is infact something they are working on to see if it can be done?

As for spin axis, I already confirmed that I was wrong, and never said otherwise afterwards...I merely stated that I WAS right on it being TrackMan that handled the ball flight in E6.

As for Trugolf saying differently...Andreas actually coded the interface, so unless you're talking to the one that "recieves" the data and displays it in Trugolf, and he says differently, I know who I'm gonna trust.

[bubba22]

Yes thank you Andreas. The issue was mainly the spin axis indoors. What data does Trackman send to E6 Andreas?

[Jeremy]

Hi guys, Jeremy from TruGolf here: I wrote the E6 side of the integration.

I can confirm E6 is using TrackMan's ballflight model exactly as Andreas said. We've worked closely to share the necessary data to utilize it within our virtual world.

There are other integrations who've chosen to use TruGolf's complete ballflight model (not just post-collision).

ZMax, if someone is giving you false information, let me know and I'll rough 'em up!

[bubba22]

Thanks Jeremy, that clears things up. To clearify it ws someone from Trugolf and Trackman that told me otherwise, not ZMax. I was the one that mentioned it here on the forums from the info I was given. So post collision then it uses E6 ?

[ZMax]

Thank you very much for clearing that up Jeremy. Just for curiousity, is it safe to say that Tracknan is the exception, where most sim hardware such as Protee, just sends the initial ball and/or club data to E6?

Thanks again.

[Honum]

Now this is what I call service...both TrackMan and Trugolf, and not just that, but the hands-on guys that are coding the integration, turn up to let us know how things work! -Thanks guys, I'm even more confident now that I've chosen the right solution for ME

[bubba22]

Honum, I am sure you have the right unit for yourself. Trackman is fantastic, noone is denying that. Indoors however, we can agree to disagree which concept (cameras or radar) are more accurate. As well lets bear in mind, there is a difference between launch monitor assessment for teaching etc vs golf simulation for entertainment (and still providing accurate data). Your setup for teaching/clubfitting is right I would agree, however for simulation, it may not be the best due to putting/chipping challanges. In any event we all feel the Trackman is very accurate, so don't feel like there is a war against it. One does have to point out the differences in all these sims so the end user can make a decision to buy based on the their needs and of course their finacial situation. We have been doing this for several years on the forum.

[Honum]

Yup, I know bubba22 I've followed the forum for years, and used to have P3Pro for simulator play before TrackMan / E6 made their new offering which I recently purchased to replace the P3Pro and have one combined solution for both my professional use and for simulator play.

I have to say that the chipping work extremely well, so I don't know where your experience with chipping being a problem comes from. I know that it was not supported in TrackMan II, at least not the very short chips, but TrackMan III is a whole different "beast" when it comes to short game, including chipping. As Andreas said, it handles chipping down to 6 ft. which has supported all the chipping I've needed in simulator play aswell

[bubba22]

Ok, well thats good info about chipping. Typically chipping and putting have been challanges for the radar based units. I am sure you will notice a big jump in accuracy going from a P3pro to a Trackman ( kinda like going from an old tube tv to a 1080p blueray picture). For you its the perfect unit. My golf club has a Trugolf sim and a Trackman III for winter play and practice. They had the Flightscope prior and just upgraded to the Trackman and rather like it. It is great for teaching etc

[ZMax]

Well put Bubba22. You've already mentioned this but I like to point out again that the most important fact is that spin axis is estimated when indoors. Potential buyers should understand how spin is estimated.

Honum, thank you for coming back and revisiting this thread.

[Jeremy]

So post collision then it uses E6 ?

That's correct.

Thank you very much for clearing that up Jeremy. Just for curiousity, is it safe to say that Tracknan is the exception, where most sim hardware such as Protee, just sends the initial ball and/or club data to E6?

Thanks again.

You're welcome.

Yes, TrackMan is an exception. Most of the integrations send initial launch parameters and we generate the entire simulation using our ballflight and collision systems. Without going into too much detail, some hardware is able to send more/better launch information which enables us to generate a more realistic ballflight. The better (and more complete) the initial parameters are, the better the resultant ballflight.

Hope that helps.

[bubba22]

Jeremy, Andreas, thanks for taking the time to give us this information. Thanks for bringing them onboard Honum. Again, information is the key to any launch monitor or simulation decision one makes. With all the different options out there, making the RIGHT decision for your needs is a challenge for all of us, even the more experienced users. Once again, thank you!

[CPA]

So I was asleep during that! (For your info Jeremy and Andreas I am in Australia. Good to see you here. Can only be good for the quest for the holy grail. Did I say holy grail. I meant ultimate golf sim.)

Just a curly question guys. Have you compared the numbers coming out of TM3 and a GC2 on the same shot? Not asking accuracy just if any differences indoors.

[CPA]

And just to clarify Jeremy- with TM3 is clubface angle calculated using spin and path and new ballflight laws or is it directly measured?
Foresight with their new HMT dont have ball and club data linked in calculation and are ignoring the new ballflight laws to an extent by standing by the raw numbers.

[Jeremy]

And just to clarify Jeremy- with TM3 is clubface angle calculated using spin and path and new ballflight laws or is it directly measured?
Foresight with their new HMT dont have ball and club data linked in calculation and are ignoring the new ballflight laws to an extent by standing by the raw numbers.

I'm not certain. When using E6 with TrackMan E6 doesn't calculate/measure this information, only display it. Our own tracking system (TruTrac) does however use clubface and path to help calculate spin.

Andreas could probably tell you, but I think it's safe to assume that information is proprietary.