Another GC2 Review

[Asics]

I got the GC2 a couple of weeks ago and thought I would post a quick review. I had been using the DD for the past two years, and think that it is a great system for the price. Over time, though, I decided I wanted to upgrade.

My primary criteria for the upgrade: I wanted the best accuracy I could find (and afford). In my price range, I primarily looked at the Protee and GSA, Flightscope and the GC2. I decided against Protee and GSA because I didn’t want to have to deal with setting up lights and such and didn’t want to have to “tweak” the unit in an effort to get it to what I thought to be accurate. I almost went with the Flightscope. However, I ultimately concluded that, while it is undoubtedly more accurate on the range where it will measure the entire flight of the ball, the GC2 would be just as accurate (if not more so) when hitting into an enclosure. The Flightscope also had setup issues for my purposes since it must sit around 10 feet behind the ball and also needs approximately 12 feet of ball flight to measure. So after hitting on the GC2 a number of times at a local golf shop, I decided it best fit my needs and pulled the trigger.

After a couple of weeks of using the GC2, I am very pleased. There really is no setup…just place the unit parallel to the flight line, then hit. I previously had a mat with a cutout for the DD, and I placed a piece of a Country Club Elite mat in there for the hitting surface….soooo much better than hitting off the DD’s hard surface. I got Foresight’s five course starter pack and am very pleased with the look of the courses and the fitting software.

I took the unit to the range the other day with my computer to verify the accuracy. The ball flight shapes were dead on…soft fades and draws, monster hooks, high and low shots, etc. It was great to see. One nice thing about the GC2 is that you can take it out and actually verify the accuracy.

I am sure that all of the systems I mentioned are good, but for my purposes the GC2 was the way to go. I give it two thumbs up.

[psace]

Well put, Asics. You have to find what is best for your situation and price point. That is key. For me, I didn't agree with the price of the courses compared to other simulators. Even DD wants too much for the courses. The GSA and the Protee have the best value course wise.

[Asics]

Psace, I agree with you on the price of the courses. I will probably use it for the driving range as much or more than the courses. However, if you want to play a lot of different courses that would be a huge consideration.

[bubba22]

I agree with both of you. If the price of the courses for the GC2 were much better, I would have gone that route. I wanted the variety of courses but they are expensive with the GC2. Nice review Asics. No doubt the GC2 is a great sim and you will enjoy.

[ZMax]

Thanks for the review Asics. The more the merrier. What did you pay for the GC2 with 5 courses?

Sounds like the GC2 is the way to go if one's budget allows. Personally, I can't spend that kind of money so I'll wait for GGS to develop a spin measuring device.

[gwilsoncfc]

Can i ask what price you paid for it and the whole kit (projector, etc) tks

[Asics]

Z and gwilson, the list price on the GC2 itself is $6500, but as others on here have recently indicated, Foresight will discount that price, as well as the price of the courses. Sounds like $5995 is pretty typical. gwilson, I didn’t buy a projector, computer, or anything else from them. I would guess you can do better buying those items elsewhere.

[Scratch]

Asics
I am leaning towards the GC2 and I would like to know how you like the software? I know the hardware is great, but what about the driving range and courses. I know it's not E6, but do you like 5 base courses? Also any pointers on what to say to negociate the price down would be great!

[Asics]

Scratch, I am very pleased with the software. There are probably others on here who can give you a better comparison of the GC2 courses, which I understand are Redchain/GSA, versus E6. I think maybe bubba22 recently indicated that he has both GSA and E6 for his Protee and gave the E6 slightly higher marks. Hope I recall that correctly. As indicated above, I will likely use it as much for practice/driving range purposes as playing the courses. The fitting software is pretty cool for the driving range because you can leave the tracers up for all of your shots and visually see how your session is going. Can also be used to compare balls, club gaps, etc.

[walb0034]

I have played Full Swing with the E6 and the GC2 with the Red Chain. Honestly, maybe it's just because of the accuracy, but I really prefer the GC2 software. I think the fitting mode is unbelievably cool, especially like Asics said with all the tracers and such. Being able to make adjustments to your swing, and then see real time all your shots rendered on the screen against the one you are currently hitting is very cool.

[bubba22]

Beauty in eye of beholder with the software. I like the Red chain software, but visually, the E6 is just a notch above. I think the new Red Chain will be nice. I have been playing both E6 and the RedChain and still enjoy both.

[js1010]

I am pretty sure the rollout is from the REd Chain software - wish they would tone it down some or have the Dry, NOrmal, Soft settings actually do something. I have complained about this to Foresight but haven't seen anything yet.

[TheGolfer]

I tried the soft, normal, dry conditions also and noticed the same no change in roll on the fairway - not even sure if it makes a difference yet on the green.

Below are examples for my PW and 8Iron. Data collected before for foresight. I can pull the LA and angle of descent but basically you can see its exaggerated. The carry averages are on but the roll I have never seen before. The trajectories seem on. When I move the green up in practice mode they react better on the green but the fairway roll with the redchain are crazy long.

It's like 10% of the carry.

Let me know if the text does not come through below.

If it's an issue with redchain software then maybe we have a broader audience to try to influence this change.


CLUB - PWRANGE - SOFT CONDITIONSNO POWER BOOSTNO WINDSHOT #CLUB
SPEEDBALL
SPEEDSMASH
FACTORCARRY
YARDSDISTANCE
YARDSROLL
YARDSROLL
% CARRYIMPACT TAPE HORIZONTALIMPACT TAPE VERTICAL16392.31.4650791361511511%1/2 inch toward toe side1/2 inch above sweet spot26493.91.4671881371511410%1/2 inch toward toe side1/2 inch above sweet spot36391.81.4571431311441310%sweet spot1/2 inch below sweet spot46695.91.453030141154139%3/4 inch toward toe sidelevel with sweet spot55986.51.4661021211351412%high toehigh toeAVG63.092.11.461708133.2147.013.810.4%AVERAGE -5.0 YARDS LEFTCLUB - 8IRONRANGE - SOFT CONDITIONSNO POWER BOOSTNO WINDSHOT #CLUB
SPEEDBALL
SPEEDSMASH
FACTORCARRY
YARDSDISTANCE
YARDSROLL
YARDSROLL
% CARRYIMPACT TAPE HORIZONTALIMPACT TAPE VERTICAL177112.31.458442162173117%sweet spot1/2 inch below sweet spot26899.31.460294142155139%high toehigh toe378113.01.448718174188148%1/4 inch toward toe side1/4 inch above sweet spot476110.41.452632171186159%sweet spot - puredsweet spot - pured572105.51.4652781631791610%sweet spot1/4 inch above sweet spotAVG74.2108.11.457073162.4176.213.88.5%AVERAGE -0.4 YARDS LEFT

[ZMax]

Text didn't come out right. No idea what those numbers mean.

[TheGolfer]

Try this. Word had problems pastingi into the site for some reason. Actually went back to notepad which I didn't think still existed...

CLUB - PW
RANGE - SOFT CONDITIONS
NO POWER BOOST
NO WIND

SHOT BALL SMASH CARRY TOTAL ROLL ROLL % IMPACT TAPE IMPACT TAPE
# SPEED FACTOR YRDS YRDS YRDS CARRY HORIZONTAL VERTICAL
1 92.3 1.4650 136 151 15 11% 1/2 inch toward toe side 1/2 inch above sweet spot
2 93.9 1.4671 137 151 14 10% 1/2 inch toward toe side 1/2 inch above sweet spot
3 91.8 1.4571 131 144 13 10% sweet spot 1/2 inch below sweet spot
4 95.9 1.4530 141 154 13 9% 3/4 inch toward toe side level with sweet spot
5 86.5 1.4661 121 135 14 12% high toe high toe

AVG 92.1 1.4617 133 147 14 10%
AVERAGE -5.0 YARDS LEFT


CLUB - 8IRON
RANGE - SOFT CONDITIONS
NO POWER BOOST
NO WIND

SHOT BALL SMASH CARRY TOTAL ROLL ROLL % IMPACT TAPE IMPACT TAPE
# SPEED FACTOR YRDS YRDS YRDS CARRY HORIZONTAL VERTICAL

1 112.3 1.4584 162 173 11 7% sweet spot 1/2 inch below sweet spot
2 99.3 1.4602 142 155 13 9% high toe high toe
3 113.0 1.4487 174 188 14 8% 1/4 inch toward toe side 1/4 inch above sweet spot
4 110.4 1.4526 171 186 15 9% sweet spot - pured sweet spot - pured
5 105.5 1.4652 163 179 16 10% sweet spot 1/4 inch above sweet spot

AVG 108.1 1.4570 162 176 14 9%
AVERAGE -0.4 YARDS LEFT

[fhann]

There appears to be something wrong with the data. The smash factors for the pitching wedge and 8 irons are not physically achievable even with COR values of 0.83 for the hitting face of the iron, which is the maximum allowable by USGA with a driver. With the loft of an 8 iron or pitching wedge, the blow on the ball is more oblique than with a lower lofted driver head, therefore one cannot achieve smash numbers in the range that are contained in your output data unless you are blading the ball.

[TheGolfer]

There appears to be something wrong with the data. The smash factors for the pitching wedge and 8 irons are not physically achievable even with COR values of 0.83 for the hitting face of the iron, which is the maximum allowable by USGA with a driver. With the loft of an 8 iron or pitching wedge, the blow on the ball is more oblique than with a lower lofted driver head, therefore one cannot achieve smash numbers in the range that are contained in your output data unless you are blading the ball.

Ignore the club data and smah factors. They are not used. They are estimated calculations and don't feed the launch conditions. For some reason they took a standard smash factor close to the max for driver and applied it to everything to back into ESTIMATED head speeds for those interested in head speeds without a radar device.

The real data is LA, ball speed, azmith, back spin, sidespin, carry, roll. I need to dig out the LA to be more precise but the point is given the carry distance, for average shots each, the roll is estimated high ~ 10% of carry for fairway. look at that backspin. same shots on the green for pw back some on average and 8rion stick sometimes ,back a little sometimes. rollout a little depending on contact and spin. Couple bad contacts up on the toe would cause more less carry more role in general.

Regards,

[ZMax]

What were the LA on those shots?

[ZMax]

TheGolfer,

Isn't odd that roll on the fairway is estimated high? With the GC2's real backspin data off a PW, you shouldn't get much roll. Especially with the kind of ball speed that you have.

[bubba22]

I agree Z. Something is funny with that. The question is does the GC2 utilize the spin numbers only for the carry and then have the Redchain take over after the ball has landed?

[TheGolfer]

if you are playing into a green or move the green up for your respective club yardage in practice or club fitting mode then you get the reaction on the green (so far from LW through 5iron, still testing). it seems like in practice / club fititng mode if you are hitting even wedges the average carry is on but the ball just rolls so far on the fairway. they have an option for soft, normal, dry/firm conditions but it doesn't seem to change the fairway roll. not sure yet on the change in reaction when hitting into the green yet when varying these settings.

seems like others have had a similar experience. not sure if its gc2 interface software that controls the roll or if its redchain algorithms. someone mentioned on an earlier post they thought it was redchain controlling the roll. this is all new to me, i just wish i had the ability to adjust the amount of roll on the fairway down/up by a % and slow/speed up the green speed by a %. seems like a simple thing to adjust.

that's why i asked some questions in the protee thread when i saw some protee (redchain software) users having extended roll situations. curious if we are having the same problem with same software back end even if we have different hardware sim or same problem different reasons?

i have communicated this to foresight. they view these questions as "complaints" and don't respond.

for the green reaction, my lw through 9irion when i catch them flush they back up some (more with the higher lofts). my 8iron stops, as i get longer they release a little. if i catch them thin or toe or high on the face they release more as expected.

i think it may be isolated to the fairways. curious what others are seeing.

i see myself now using the foresight fitting module more often. its very nice just to go in and starting hitting and comparing. the issue is if you want to hit into the green versus a fairway you need to adjust the green closer/farther for your respective club. doesn't sound that bad but i have my equipment int he closet, computer in another room, and working on getting the touch screen setup in the room. touch screen it may not be a problem but after 10 shots with a club and switching to another club its becoming a little annoying to keep changing the green.

if the fairway didn't roll so much then you can just keep changing clubs and hitting into the fairway and won't have to ignore the total distance # and won't need to bother with moving the green as you change clubs to practice.

[bubba22]

My feeling is that the spin numbers are not utilized after it hits the green or fairway. Foresight should listen to you the Golfer. I only see roll issues with the skulled shots on Protee. This is being adressed as we speak by Protee. if the GC2 measures spin, then why in the heck shouldn't the ball react differently after it lands knowing the spin data? The Golfer are you one that can spin a chip with a Vokey wedge? Does the GC2 pick up low skipper chips that spin?

[ZMax]

If the LA numbers on TheGolfer's PW data above were normal, then we can assume that ForeSight's RedChain does not use the GC2's spin data in estimating the amount of roll on the fairway. I think you're right bubba22, about it not being used on the green either.

Wow! This is huge. The spin data should be used in all aspect of simulation. That's the whole point of the GC2. Perhaps a Foresight rep can come on here and clarify this matter.

[TheGolfer]

i can try to hit some spinners with the LW chips. I do have the spin mill 60*. These chips I call "pinch" chips for a lack of better word that pinch, come in lower like a dart, and spin more than a standard chip. I will give them a try.

like i said on the green it looks like you get the action. fairways and practice range are the ones that roll significantly.

[js1010]

I think the Red Chain Software is doing the ball run out on green and fairways.

I agree - Ball reacts very well on the greens - including chips and pitches. Not sure why the fairways reactive different by the do.

I always practice hitting in to greens on a course - usually pick a great hole and use the drop a ball feature and hit. When I want to practice a different club I go modify the distance in the fairway and hit from there. I really like hitting in to greens instead of the open range for the visual of the green as well as seeing how close to the hole I am on each shot.

[TheGolfer]

@js1010

Have you tried hitting shots into the green and comparing the differences with soft, normal, dry/firm settings. Group the clubs and hit a few shots each for chipping, pitch, full swing for each setting then compare the averages. curious if these settings change anythign on the green?

Since they are working with redchain on a new update in the new year we should create a GC2 New Feature Recommedation thread to get everyone's feedback. Not complaints but actual feature improvements which this is one, so is adjusting green speed, etc. Each user collect it and send it in to the company this month so they get all the key feedback from a number of users. Maybe then they will listen for constructive feedback for improvement the product.

[Asics]

I also prefer to practice my irons by going to a hole (rather than the range) and find that the action on the greens is very accurate. Don't know why there is excessive roll on the fairways...agree that it's like you're hitting onto a very hard fairway.

[js1010]

I am not sure how many software updates we are going to get with the new engine coming at some point later next year. What did you hear about early next year? Only thing i heard was that they are looking to have a demo of the new engine for the pga show in jan.

I at one point emailed dean from red chain about features i wou.ld like to see - figured would have better luck getting some of the stuff in as part of the base software.


Starting a new thread for this sounds like a good idea. I can post my wish list tommorrow.

[ZMax]

Here's a thought. Try hitting approach shots to the green with a PW or GW with wait for spin off. Then do it again with wait for spin on. Should be a good test, especially for those that can spin the ball back.

Post your results.


On my GSA, hitting an 8 iron into the fairway, I get on average, 23 LA, 138 yard carry, 145 yards total (5 yards bounce, and 2 yards roll).

[Asics]

If anyone is interested in more specifics regarding the roll on a green vs. fairway with the GC2, I hit around 12 shots just now with a six iron. As indicated on the attachment, ten hit the green, two missed. Avg. roll on the green was 2-4 yds. The two that hit fairway rolled 11-12 yds. Shots were around 165 yds. I didn't warm up and they weren't very solid shots, but it gives you an idea of the relative difference. Better struck shots would have probably had a little less roll on both surfaces. I guess the accuracy of the roll depends on how firm the fairway is, but that is probably better than I was earlier thinking.