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  1. #1
    Posting Sensei justsomeguy is on a distinguished road
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    Changes to Handicapping System for Next Year

    Saw this in the Ottawa Citizen:

    http://blogs.ottawacitizen.com/2011/...ange-approved/

    I think this is the same as the USGA system. If your goal is to decrease your handicap next year, this change will make that more difficult.

  2. #2
    Singles Match Play Champ 2009 Team Match Play Champ 2013, 2014 leftylucas is on a distinguished road leftylucas's Avatar
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    Yikes, that is one heck of a change
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  3. #3
    Golf Padawan nokids is on a distinguished road nokids's Avatar
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    no change for me. under the old rules it would have been nice for me to get to scratch and only put a bogey on each hole. darn it.
    You only get out of something what you put into it

  4. #4
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 LobWedge is on a distinguished road LobWedge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
    If your goal is to decrease your handicap next year, this change will make that more difficult.
    If the change shows a more accurate representation of a golfer's ability, then it's the right thing to do.
    When applying the Rules, you follow them line by line. You don't read between them.

  5. #5
    Bogie Libbing is on a distinguished road Libbing's Avatar
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    That is the U.S. system. You'll note the oddity of the system that the higher handicap are allowed much different # strokes over par on lower par holes. That is, a 5 handicapper can record no more than a double on a par 3, but a 15 handicapper can record a quadruple 7. But when you go to a par 5, both the 5 and 15 handicapper max out at a double bogie 7.

    This is a little bit odd, because (at least in the US), par 5 hole handicaps tend to be rated lower (harder) than par 3s and 4s (on average) since handicaps are all based on scoring differentials between low and high handicaps on a given hole - the theory being that low handicappers have a relatively easier time (relative to high handicappers) on par 5s than they do on par 3s or 4s (lower handicappers tend to have an easier time reaching a par 5 in 2 or an easier time making up for a bad shot, or just lower odds of completly blowing a shot out of three shots in a row).

    So this takes you to an odd place where high handicappers can only take a double for handicap purposes on the very holes in which they are supposed to have a relatively more difficult time, but can take a quad on holes that are supposed to be relatively easier. Hmmm. I suppose some genius has figured out that this all works just fine. hmmmm.

  6. #6
    Hall of Fame jeffc is on a distinguished road jeffc's Avatar
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    i think this is good. I never quite understood why i couldn't put my triple bogey's down. though I can see my index going up next year ;-)
    I got a fever. And the only prescription is more golf equipment.

  7. #7
    Singles Match Play Champ 2010 Ruskie is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by LobWedge View Post
    If the change shows a more accurate representation of a golfer's ability, then it's the right thing to do.
    I wonder how you figure that. Intuitively, the old system is much more representative (Libbing just made a pretty good case for that above).

    To me this change smells of sucking up to USGA, with a hint of making it more straight forward for golfer who get confused with the current ESC (it's slightly easier to remember "Max 7" than "Max double bogey"). As such, I doubt it has anything to do with representing a golfer's playing ability more accurately.

  8. #8
    Founder Kilroy is on a distinguished road Kilroy's Avatar
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    It enlarges the disparity between high and low handicappers, by making higher handicaps higher while single digit caps stay the same. Low handicappers already feel they give up more strokes than they should to the higher capped players. It's a common complaint. This makes no sense to me at all.
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  9. #9
    Green Jacket GarthM is on a distinguished road GarthM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilroy View Post
    It enlarges the disparity between high and low handicappers, by making higher handicaps higher while single digit caps stay the same. Low handicappers already feel they give up more strokes than they should to the higher capped players. It's a common complaint. This makes no sense to me at all.
    That was my initial reaction as well. Does anyone understand how this is supposed to be "easier" or more reflective of one's handicap?

  10. #10
    Habitual poster adam is on a distinguished road adam's Avatar
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    Well this will definitely make it much harder to get to a single digit handicap.
    The disparity between single digits and players in the teens will be huge now.
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  11. #11
    Wannamaker mjf is on a distinguished road mjf's Avatar
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    Doesn't really make much difference to me since I rarely play in handicapped matches. If (when?) I get to scratch, hopefully I won't have too many double bogeys anyway.

  12. #12
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    From Matt McKay as posted on TGN.

    In the spring of 2011, the RCGA Handicap & Course Rating Committee met to discuss the status of the current ESC method. The committee analyzed some small-sample data and determined that there would be merit in commissioning further statistical research based on a larger sample of scores.

    Professor Tim B. Swartz (Simon Fraser University) was requested to perform an analysis on an extensive set of full golf rounds recorded by members of the Coloniale GC (Alberta) from 1996-1999. This analysis compared the current RCGA ESC method with the current USGA ESC method. His analysis concluded that the current RCGA ESC method causes differences in Handicap Factor that are not commensurate with the difference in ability. This is most acute for golfers in the higher half of each range of handicaps within the ESC table. Put simply, it did not make great sense to treat a 1 handicap the same as an 18 handicap (maximum hole score of 2 over par) when their abilities are so different. By reducing the size of handicap ranges (they will become increments of 9) that problem is mitigated. The new ESC provides a more even distribution across a wide range of handicaps.

    Apart from the statistical merits of the new ESC, there are some other benefits:
    -Using maximum numbers for all handicap ranges other than 0-9 makes the ESC procedure easier to understand and apply (ie. I am a 12 Course Handicap so my max score on any hole is a 7)

    -Using maximum numbers also mitigates the common issue of courses not allocating the proper par to certain holes, as per RCGA yardage/par guidelines

    -Currently, in a head to head match, the lower handicap player has a slightly better than 50% chance of winning. The new ESC will bring that closer to 50/50.

    -It brings an RCGA Handicap Factor and USGA Handicap Index into mathematical equivalency, which is important considering the number of ‘snowbirds’ playing golf in the USA during the winter months.

    While those in the 1-9 handicap range will feel no impact, handicaps on the whole will rise to some degree, most notably for people in the higher handicap ranges. But don't expect your handicap to balloon...remember that only your best 10 differentials from your most recent 20 rounds are calculated, so most often those rounds with high hole scores will not even be part of the handicap calculation.

  13. #13
    Hall of Fame jeffc is on a distinguished road jeffc's Avatar
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    thanks Lyle, great summary. Hasn't there been a lot of chatter over the years from low cappers that they were at a disadvantage against high cappers in handicapped events? So what this is saying is that they actually have had an advantage over the past while?
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  14. #14
    Gotta Post Break68 is on a distinguished road Break68's Avatar
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    While I will still be in double digits for my handicap, so no big deal to me. Thanks for the explanation.
    Obviously you're not a golfer.

  15. #15
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffc View Post
    thanks Lyle, great summary. Hasn't there been a lot of chatter over the years from low cappers that they were at a disadvantage against high cappers in handicapped events? So what this is saying is that they actually have had an advantage over the past while?
    It has always been my perception that higher handicapped players have an advantage because of the greater "margin for improvement" that they have over a low single digit player. That is, it is much easier for a 20 to have a good day and play 5 strokes under that 20 that a 2 playing 5 strokes under his.

    However, the powers at be indicate that this is statistically untrue. If the slight increase in the higher handicapped player's factor solves the real problem, then the ESC changes are for the better.
    Last edited by BC MIST; 10-29-2011 at 04:04 PM.

  16. #16
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Break68 View Post
    While I will still be in double digits for my handicap, so no big deal to me. Thanks for the explanation.
    And it should not be a big deal. Our factors are based on a simple mathematical formula and our actual number is incidental to how we play. The formula has changed a little and so will some of the factors. So what? At our club, our Premiere course rating was lowered by .7 from the blacks and our factors obviously rose a little and are now more accurate. This is good. However, it would bother only those whose egos are affected by a rise in their factor. It's just a number.

  17. #17
    Scratch Player byerxa is on a distinguished road byerxa's Avatar
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    A few years ago I tracked my scores by both USGA and RCGA rules and it made a 1 stroke difference (roughly 10 under RCGA to 11 under USGA). Looking at this year's scores I suspect the gap would be a bit more (currently 11.8) as I had an awful lot of strokes dropped on par 3s and 4s.

    Question: how is this dealt with if someone has an index with a bunch of scores under the new system while their competitor has few or none? Do we just suck up the potential difference until things settle?
    I don't have an ulcer - I am just a carrier.

  18. #18
    Posting Sensei justsomeguy is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC MIST View Post
    It has always been my perception that higher handicapped players have an advantage because of the greater "margin for improvement" that they have over a low single digit player. That is, it is much easier for a 20 to have a good day and play 5 strokes under that 20 that a 2 playing 5 strokes under his.

    However, the powers at be indicate that this is statistically untrue. If the slight increase in the higher handicapped player's factor solves the real problem, then the ESC changes are for the better.
    I think your long=time perception is correct. I don't see how making changes that increase handicaps for higher-handicapped players but not for lower handicap players makes it more equitable. Just the opposite in fact. I think it makes sandbagging easier - and the handicapped system has (and should) have a slight bias against sandbagging.

    Frankly BC I don't think if I now get 15 strokes from you instead of 14 that is entirely fair to you. As you have pointed out, our abilities have not changed - but my margin of error has just gotten better and 15 strokes is a lot!

  19. #19
    3 Wood THUNDAH is on a distinguished road
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    So does everyone start with a clean slate in 2012 or do we keep our current handicaps and blend the new with the old until we've played 20 games?
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  20. #20
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
    I think your long=time perception is correct. I don't see how making changes that increase handicaps for higher-handicapped players but not for lower handicap players makes it more equitable. Just the opposite in fact. I think it makes sandbagging easier - and the handicapped system has (and should) have a slight bias against sandbagging
    Agreed. The player who pads his score, when playing with his wife Martha, will now be able to include "triples and quadruples" instead of just doubles, in order to inflate his handicap. Or, when the 12 wins his match on #14, while having a "career day," he will suddenly fall apart and double in. While these cheaters are few and far between, proving that they are cheating so that there can be some consequence, is difficult. Of greater concern and much more prevalent, are those who don't enter ALL their eligible scores, or just enter only the poorer ones, in order to avoid having to play in "A" class, for example.

    The Handicap System provides for withdrawal or modification of handicaps, when cheaters are caught, but catching cheaters is not easy. Ultimately, the system IS a good indicator of potential for honest golfers, but unfortunately, there is the selfish minority who want their names on the trophy and the $10 certificate in their pocket, and will do anything dishonest in order to achieve this.

  21. #21
    Out of Bounds orangeTANG is on a distinguished road
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    I'm curious. Under the new system if a player is on a Par 3 and fires 2 shots off the tee into the bush OB and takes a 7, his handicap factor could be inflated relative to someone who fires 2 tee shots into the bush on a Par 5 and takes a 9. I thought the old system was the remove a single bad hole for a player from affecting his overall handicap, this appears to emphasize the importance of scoring well on certain holes.

    If this is the case courses with very easy Par 3s could become quite busy before tournaments.

  22. #22
    Hall of Fame jvincent is on a distinguished road jvincent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC MIST View Post
    -Using maximum numbers for all handicap ranges other than 0-9 makes the ESC procedure easier to understand and apply (ie. I am a 12 Course Handicap so my max score on any hole is a 7)
    I don't buy the "easier to understand" argument. If a golfer can't figure out max score = triple but can figure out max score = 7 then something is wrong.

    It sounds like they were trying to change the ranges. That could have been done by limiting 4 and better (I chose 4 arbitrarily) to only being allowed to post bogey with 5 to 18 being allowed to post double.
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  23. #23
    Forum Jedi Weazl is on a distinguished road Weazl's Avatar
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    According to this I can no longer take anything higher than a 7, regardless of what par is on the hole? I take 8's often on par 5's, this is odd. Being a short hitter and struggling on long holes, this will actually help my handicap I think.

    Odd?
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  24. #24
    Hopelessly Addicted jsttaylor is on a distinguished road jsttaylor's Avatar
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    So as THUNDAH already asked, does anybody know if it is in fact a clean slate for all in 2012 or ?

  25. #25
    Founder Kilroy is on a distinguished road Kilroy's Avatar
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    What will the R&A do in Europe? Not sure which system they were using but I always thought the RCGA were aligned with them on such issues.
    Life dinnae come wit gimmies so yuv got nae chance o' gitt'n any from me.

  26. #26
    Posting Sensei justsomeguy is on a distinguished road
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    No, your 2011 scores carry-forward and continue to be part of the handicap calculation until you have more than 20 scores for 2012.
    Quote Originally Posted by jsttaylor View Post
    So as THUNDAH already asked, does anybody know if it is in fact a clean slate for all in 2012 or ?

  27. #27
    Hall of Fame jvincent is on a distinguished road jvincent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weazl View Post
    According to this I can no longer take anything higher than a 7, regardless of what par is on the hole? I take 8's often on par 5's, this is odd. Being a short hitter and struggling on long holes, this will actually help my handicap I think.

    Odd?
    What is your current handicap? Under the old system if your course handicap was 18 or lower you were limited to double, so 7 on a par 5 was the max you could post for handicapping. Under the new system the max is still 7 so it's the same for par 5's but now that changes for par 4s and 3s.

    If you were posting 8's for par 5's before then your course handicap would have had to be higher than 18.
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  28. #28
    Posting Sensei justsomeguy is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weazl View Post
    According to this I can no longer take anything higher than a 7, regardless of what par is on the hole? I take 8's often on par 5's, this is odd. Being a short hitter and struggling on long holes, this will actually help my handicap I think.

    Odd?
    That depends on your handicap. If your handicap is 20+, you can take an 8 (on a par 5 or even a par 3).

  29. #29
    Posting Sensei justsomeguy is on a distinguished road
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    They have their own system that is completely different:

    http://www.handicapmaster.org/handic...m_Contents.php

    Basically in the UK handicaps are based on competition play ONLY. In Canada & the US tournament rounds are given extra weight, but in reality most of the rounds are outside of competition.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilroy View Post
    What will the R&A do in Europe? Not sure which system they were using but I always thought the RCGA were aligned with them on such issues.

  30. #30
    Forum Jedi Weazl is on a distinguished road Weazl's Avatar
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    You are right. My mis calculation there I did in fact write 8's and 9's on scorecard, but as I finished the year near 17, put 7's down on handicap tracker.

    Status quo for par 5's.
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