TruGolf TruTrack vs ProTee V2.0 vs GSA PX5 for accuracy club and ball measurements

[steb]

I just posted a comment in the E6 computer build thread that I thought I'd relay here for those people that are hung up on the hardware being accurate to within a half degree:

The software aspect is something else I think people need to take into account when they complain that +/- 1 degree is too much variation in the hardware. The exact same specs fed into two different software packages (GSA or E6) will produce different ball flights depending on the algorythms used by the software developers. Who is to say which one is more accurate...or even if either of them are? People need to be realistic and keep some perspective...all of this is SIMULATED and spot-on accurate depictions of what the ball would do in real life are pipe dreams. The simulators and software can be VERY close, but you can never know for sure what the ball would have done exactly in the real world.

Sure, humidity, eddy currents and all other simulated or ignored effects also will cause deviation from the real world.

But errors add and each component error must be minimized as much as it cost-effectively or possibly can.

It's a bit like those who say a 5 yard inaccuracy in their golf GPS is no big deal because they have a 10 yard inaccuracy when they swing anyway. Well now they've got 15. I can't imagine too many golfers being happy knowing their accuracy has just suffered another 5 yard loss. A different method of measuring, say laser rangefinders, might only make their accuracy suffer by 1 yard but of course lose some advantages inherent in GPSs. That's the choice.

The GC2 I commented on its 1 degree directional accuracy, has other advantages (e.g. portability) that make this a worthwhile sacrifice, especially outside where you can see your ball flight anyway. But for the 'perfect simulator', which is what the thread was about, it's not there for me.

[TheGolfer]

Sounds like i offended a couple of you guys by accident. My appologies. Completely the opposite of my intent. That's the engineer in me with a hint on the spectrum so my apologies. Sorry.

I openly admitted I am brand new to these sims and looking to your indepth experience to help guide my choice. Want to use it as a teaching tool so I am interested in getting the most accuracy for the money. Just wrote my perception on the choices given my limited quick study (very limited) which is why i posted in the first place to get an experts opinion since all I have to date is talking with each company, reading about each technology, and talking to each of the competitors.

Since it sounds like ZMax is saying that my perceptions are way off which probably are since I am new to these I would like to know where I am off to better help guide my purchase. I am not wed to anyone one product / company so I won't get offended just would like to know where I am off. Greatly appreciate your feedback. For this budget I know I am not going to get a perfect system. Just want to know what the limitations are so I can make an informed decision and go in with my eyes wide open.

You are right Bubba22, I tend to over analyze given my background but when I spending over $15k for a complete setup I want to understand the details and get a users perspective beyond the marketing hype. Again, my appologies for any offense and I do look forward to your expert opinion. Please provide background on the 2nd camera you have installed for protee since that is news to me that is available to the market now. My understanding from talking wtih the company this week that it is not due out for a little while. Where did you get it, price point, company supporting it?

Again, my appologies for any offense taken.

[bubba22]

No offense taken by me. The fact is as ZMax says there is no perfect system, not even the About golf simulator is perfect. I probably hit on an About golf simulator every other week and am no more impressed with it than my home setup. I know steb is not high on the GC2 and feels there could be better but at a cheaper price but that is yet to be seen. You have several choices in my mind but each have their pros and cons. I personally think ythat the GC2 is a great sim and would hope those users would pipe up now. steb if one is that worried about the numbers you are mentioning then you probably should be on tour. I am a single digit handicapper and pay a lot of attention to yards, carry, wind etc but really the short game is where the money is made. The simulator will not really help my short game. Like rdh said if the sim is off 10 yards from what the REAL shot is who knows? Does it really matter. Not to me. But if that precision is what is an absolute then none of these systems may do. In fact perhaps even the About/HD/Sportscoach systems woun't do. I would suggest a plane ticket to Florida for those who live in the cold and play real golf.

[ZMax]

No offense taken by me either. Just tired of seeing the same questions over and over. For example, how many "help me chose a simulator", "what's the best for $3000", "What's the best for $7000", and "What's a perfect simulator", etc.... threads do we need?

While GGS's customer support appears to be lacking at the moment, GGS's website does provide a lot of instructions and some F.A.Q's.

The PX5 does not use a ball track. What you see there is the trigger array.

bubba22 is beta testing the H-cam.

Trugolf's ball measurements are dependent on the ball hitting the screen. That's how sonic triangulation works. Can it be as accurate as a camera? Sure. For chips and flops, you can tell the software what kind of loft/LA you are playing. I don't think the rep told you that. As for putting, it's done with the ball behind the floor sensors. Think about that...

The GC2's course are Red Chain courses just like Protee and GSA. So graphics are the same. My biggest question for the GC2 is how does it measure initial ball path? The camera is looking at the ball from the side view. And to be within 1%? Perhaps a GC2 user could chime in on this.

[bubba22]

Well summed ZMax. I have been asking for the GC2 users to pipe in but no go. The fact is the unit most likely is weaker in dtecting the horizontal angle for sure. Is it enough to not buy one? There are lot's of users that can jump in right now and tell their experience. The sim that would make sense to me would be a 2 or 3 camera sim with the cams overhead and on the side for launch. I suspect the Sportscoach and the Bogolf would be the closest in price to that type. If one can develop that type of sim for 6-7 grand then go for it.

[ZMax]

Thanks bubba22. Bogolf sounds very promising indeed. $15K is a lot of money, but a lot less than an About Golf system. Not sure if it can be done at $6-7K. I wonder how far along Cory is with the Bogolf install. His review should be interesting.

[TheGolfer]

We are all making a cost vs accuracy tradeoff as you walk up the technology curve whether you realize you are doing that or not. Once you hit that curve with your budget and you are happy great. Some stop off at Otishot. This I am sure is much less accurate. Some have a little more budget and want that extra accuracy so they step up to p3pro. Additional more accuracy desired then perhaps protee. Don't take offense since its just perception. GSA PX5 in mind is the next step up with dual 3D camera but interesting its a couple hundred dollars less. I think this is driven by protee being smart and simplifying the system to market to a wider market segment for typical hcp ranges while charging a premium because to go GSA it sounds like everyone knows due to complexity it will take more time and effort to install so a premium for an easier install with better support is perhaps what is happening. GC2 not sure where they fall but they seem very accurate with their numbers and publish them but they are a lot more money than any of these systems when you look at just buying the component, software, and some courses. Interesting to learn they are redchain. THE POINT OF SAYING THIS IS ANYONE WHO SAYS WHY WORRY ABOUT ACCURACY THEY ARE ALL REALLY GOOD ARE REALLY SAYING FOR YOUR BUDGET AND HCP YOU FIND THE CHOICE MEETS YOUR NEEDS. IF WE REALLY FELT THEY WERE ALL ACCURATE WE WOULD BE BUYING THE $500 OPTISHOT AND CALLING IT A DAY. With every increase in accuracy and reduction in error within the system the price point increases.

There is a big difference in teaching people from 10hcp, to 5hcp, to 0hcp. It is certainly not linear.

Zmax - do you have a PX5 installed? You mentioned the instructions on the site so it sounded like you did an install. Sounds like you were pleased with the GSA support during install? I know resellers who purposely will not sell GSA for this specific reason - lack of support and it's egg on the resellers face when the consumer gets ** off. The benefit of PX5 can help short game by hitting from anywhere rather than the fiberbuilt matt so you can have fringe / rough matts installed to work on chipping / pitching. Putting not so worried about since I have several putting greens installed in the basement. Plus Martin is coming out very soon with the Spin module to be integrated. It seems like the dual camera 3D ball tracking via camera with a spin camera would be a very hard product to beat assuming support is there and price point.

[ZMax]

Yes, but I did it in pieces. I used the instructions on his site. The support I got were more of bug fixes and requests for changes to improve the software. He came through pretty much on all of them. Think of GGS as a Heath Kit. You save money because the prices are trade prices. His resellers, if there are any, make there money from selling and doing full installs. Protee is big in Europe and employs more people.

Good to hear about the spin module. That must be the SX.

[TheGolfer]

You can get Martins GSA CX5 5 camera system for $11k which should be one of the most accurate component systems you can get. Not sure if anyone has one installed and used one though.

Given the money the PX5 dual camera available now for $5k with the spin module SX (estimated $2k per GSA) being added in the next couple months for the money give a darn good system for the price point. Plus you don't need to hit off the IR mat and hit short game chips / pitches from rough / fringe along with sand inserts. Trouble is finding a reseller that is very knowledgeable of GSA products that can support it when GSA won't return your phone calls. The number of people I have heard regarding lack of customer support along with my experience in reaching out to the company makes me very worried of buying this and hoping the instructions on the web site step me through dual camera calibrations (again new to sims). If it wasn't for the support concerns this product sounds like the most accurate for this budget range with the spin module coming out in couple months (delayed from summer 2011 launch).

If anyone knows any GSA resellers that are very knowledgeable about selling their products please advise. Also if anyone has great success stories of GSA support helping out during install would be helpful.

Curious to here more from GC2 users perspective also.

[bubba22]

You are misunderstanding the accuracy point. The three sims, TruGolf, Protee and GSA are all similar in accuracy, not the DD or P3pro. The cost of these three sims are close. The jump to an all cam sim is higher than these sims. There have been support issues with GSA but that doesn't mean you should not go that route. In fact ZMax probably knows as much as anyone about the GSA system, has helped many people on this forum and probably should be compensated by Martin. I am sure if you go the route of GSA he would be a good resource for you. The Protee with the 2nd cam will be similar to the PX5. Some people have been leery with Martins promises of products so hopefully he comes through with things like the spin add on. I would buy for today and hopefully the promises of tomorrow will come.

[TheGolfer]

that's great to hear wrt to zmax. I feel the PX5 is very good compromise with the intent of adding on the SX spin module when its available. I think that combo would be very good for me. Plus hit from anywhere, have fring, rough, fairway turfs to hit from rather than fiberbuilt is a plus.

It does make me nervous of buying an expensive and fairly complicted product from a company that won't return phone calls. I am getting this first hand from a number of resellers that will no longer deal with them. I also have calls into both sides of the company and my perception is they are either going down so don't care about returning sales calls or have enough business doing what they normally do for people that buy large volume so ignoring the residential single user buys or just poorly run and over their head. I have never bought an expensive product before that will require some support knowing that the company will probably not return phone calls. Seems rather odd to me.

I would love to hear about Zmax's great customer experience from GSA.

If protee has their 2nd camera available now then that is clearly something I want to look at since that will help close that gap between the PX5. Do you still need to hit from the fiberbuilt mat or can you hit from anywhere like PX5? Very interested.

[bubba22]

For the Protee you need to hit from the sensor pad. Correct me if I am wrong Z, but with the PX5 when not hitting from the sensor pad, then the spin is determined from the ball path somehow? Is it accurate?

[TheGolfer]

i am told the current PX5 no SX spin module that you can hit from anywhere. You just won't get the club head measuremetns on the swing analyzer after your swing for those shots. Good question if spin is measured differently for PX5 from matt versus anywhere? Bummer with 2nd cammera with protee you still need to hit off the sensor mat and not have other surfaces to hit from.

[ZMax]

For the Protee you need to hit from the sensor pad. Correct me if I am wrong Z, but with the PX5 when not hitting from the sensor pad, then the spin is determined from the ball path somehow? Is it accurate?

That's correct. The software will use the ball path along with a set of predetermine shot types. And no, it's not accurate. That's why I want Martin to finish the SX.

[bubba22]

I agree. I hope the sx will pan out. I am also hoping that if it does, that it can be integrated with the Protee as well.

[ZMax]

I'm sure it can be done, but it would be difficult to get Martin to work with Protee. Also, an update from Red Chain might be needed for the spin data to be shared.

[bubba22]

Good point about software and spin inputs. The GC2 somehow gets spin into the Red Chain engine. I am wondering if in their interface they reverse the data by figuring out the club face and path given the ball data and then place that into Red Chain. What do you think Z?

[ZMax]

Interesting idea bubba22. I doubt it though, because that would be like cheating. The RedChain software has to be specialized for the GC2 so that the measured spin is used. They don't show club data, hens the attempt to add a club cam earlier in the year.

[bubba22]

Ya your right. They must have the ability to add spin to the RedChain.

[mmlincon]

be weary of the hit from "anywhere" even with the SX. If the prototype photo is any indication the sensor area will be about 8-10 inches. Obviously, the ball has to pass over this. Could you have rough, sand and fairway panels behind it, of course. But the further back you get the less likely the ball is going to pass over the sensors. Also, is there going to be a height limit on the sensors. That is to say a lob type shot being a couple feet from the sensor, will this degrade accuracy? Move this same shot back a few feet ( SX Panel(sensor)-Rough-Sand-Fairway ) to simulate a lob shot and you are getting even further away. I think the SX is a great idea, but I have some concerns about it too. I don't know that I would give the SX too much weight is making a decision until it is actually out. I mean where is the LX?

I would think of GGS as more of a OEM solution. Plan on doing a lot of trial and error by yourself, but if you do run into issues Martin can and will address them. Just don't expect a lot of hand holding. There is a ton of info on his site if you take the time to look for it.

[bubba22]

All good points mmlincon. I hope the sx pans out but who know about the accuracy, playability etc. I agree where is the LX? Martin should have guys like you and ZMax test these products.

[mmlincon]

Agreed, but I think it goes back to being burned by a few others. He has trust issues which is understandable. I think Zmax and I are more interested and passionate about the technology then getting rich by it.

[bubba22]

Agreed, but I think it goes back to being burned by a few others. He has trust issues which is understandable. I think Zmax and I are more interested and passionate about the technology then getting rich by it.

Exactly my point!!!

[TheGolfer]

The "hit form anywhere" point that you need to be within 8-10 inches just want to clarify. I wasn't talking about the SX. I was looking at the PX5 which claims you can hit from the sensor matt if you want or hit from anywhere including rough, sand, fairway panels and the dual camera picks up all ball characteristics (estimating spin). You can get club head characteristics in the swing analyzer if you hit form the mat but only ball characteristics if you hit from anywhere. Is this true for the PX5? Does anyone actually have the PX5 installed? From my measurements its much greater than 8-10 inches for PX5. The mat is ~ 2ft then +1 fairway +1 rough +1 sand is at least 5 feet. Can you help clarify. Thanks.

[mmlincon]

The 8-10 inches is what the width of the sensor array on an SX might be - this is a total guess though. The hit from anywhere claims with is PX5 is true with a caveat. You are only going to get path, launch angle and ball speed. Forget about any club data ( face angle, speed and path ) which is where spin data is calculated from. So, the PX5 not hit from the mat will give you a shot and you have options on how it behaves in the software. You can have the shot just go straight in the ball path direction ( ie 3 degrees right ) Ball will flight off to the right ( no curve ). Or you can have a left or right shots curve back the opposite direction ( ie simulate hook/fade ). There might be another option for this, don't recall. My setup is basically what the PX5 is. Hope that clears things up

[TheGolfer]

thanks for clarifying this. this is an eye opener for me. i knew px5 estimated spin. i knew it didn't meaure club head when hitting from the rough, sand inserts. i didn't realize from the rough / sand it can't even estimate spin. i was looking at this thinking that if you are hitting from rough material the ball should come out lower with less spin naturally and the sim would pick up the real LA and estimated spin. now this makes sense since they are estimating spin you need to know the club head characteristics to estimate that spin. Not sure if I would bother with these inserts now since going from estimated spin to same hardcoded spin in software for each shot.

Do you use the rough / sand inserts yourself? How do you like them compared to hititng off the mat when you are in the rough / sand?

Thanks.

[mmlincon]

No I do not use the inserts for the very reasons you stated.

[js1010]

Hey golfer,

I got your pm but will answer here

Foresight Courses are the same as GSA as far as i can tell. Believe they have all 70 or so that are available. As discussed here, they are expensive in comparison to gsa courses. I recently paid 850 for a 10 pack which was discounted from 1k.

The Foresight range and fitting modules were also developed by red chain for them specifically. Fitting module is good if you want to do club fittings or comare clubs. I do use it to test some of my drivers - which is pretty neat. They also have a club gaping feature in there as well.

Actual simulation and physics engine i believe is the same as gsa but i do know foresight has created their own ballflight algorithm that the red chain engine uses to get carry and offline numbers. This was a software update earlier this year that definately improved carry yardages over what was initially done in just feeding the numbers to gsa and letting it determine carry yardages. I believe i posted about this in detail in the old gc2 thread


As far as the horizontal angle goes - i dont know how they do it with the unit from the side but i also can't imagine how they are reading the dimples to measure spin either. I agree that number can't be as accuate as an overhead cam to determine the horizonal angle but i haven't noticed anything to make me doubt this number either. What i know about the unit is that it has 2 high speed cameras that can take upwards to 10 images as the ball crosses its field of view and uses them all to get its numbers. It can also read verticle angle up to 70 degrees. There are no lighting requirements - works in dark or bright light.


The unit is perfect for my needs now as it gives me accuracy I want and its also very easy for me to move to use my garage bay. It's literally a power cable and usb cable so i can easily move the unit away and pull a car in right over my hitting mat.

Overall , i am very happy with my unit afer a year and a half and hitting over 12000 balls on it. I am a lower single digit and know my yardages and my ball flight very well. Its a solid unit. Can you get better system for less - i don't really know - but i was stuck on the not having to select a club feature as my main determing reason for choosing a camera based system. I figured non camera sysems could not be as accuate based on this alone. I know you can tweak the yardages in these sysems to make it accurate for you but to me doing this must give tradeoffs with certain types of shots.

At the time I bought my unit I wasn't aware of any other all camera based unit that was at the GC2 price range. I am not that concerned with courses, however. I have 15 and don't know how many more I will buy. Will probably wait for the new red chain engine to come up and see. If you want all the courses then this is definitely a consideration against the GC2.

I must admit the E6 looks better than gsa from what bubba has shown - your lucky to be able to use both, bubba - very cool. With the GC2 you will be stuck to whatever Foresight chooses to do. The unit is tied to their on integration with Red Chain.

[TheGolfer]

js1010 - thanks for ther feedback on gc2. appreciate it.

[TheGolfer]

Zmax, took a look at the TruGolf review and it looks like it was on the older model.

Has anyone tested the new personal Technique models (TrueGolf.com)? They start at $7k (XGA, need to supply computer, E6 lite), $10k (XGA?, E6 lite more courses), and $15k (E6 full edition, HD WXGA projector, 16:10 aspect, you only supply power outlet). They claim since they have over 8 feet of distance to measure LA, speed, and ball path that its very accurate compared to those that measure just in front of the tee.

Testing trutrack tonight.

Anyone know of protee systems that can be tested in North East US?

I can do a side by side comparison of the same shots on each compared with what those shots do outside in the realworld.