hit down on the ball

[covanant]

can someone explain to me what(hitting down on a ball is?)
i have practiced this at the range this season,and i just dont get it.
all i do is chunk/top it.:shake

[mmills820105]

I was going to leave this for one of the veterans, but I'll give it a shot. When they say, hit down on the ball, what they mean is hit it so that the club compresses the ball between the clubface and the turf. It's this compression, with a combination of the club's loft, that sends the ball on its way. The compression initiates backspin on the ball, which is what gets it up in the air. It is also why you see the Tour pros take divots everytime they take a shot. Most amatuers, including myself, tend to sweep the ball in the air, like using a fairway wood, which works alright, but it is recommended to hit down on the ball for cleaner, more consistent contact. Analyze your divot to see if you're hitting down on the ball. I was told a good strike should result in a divot that starts after the ball and should be about the size of a $5 bill.

[mmills820105]

Check this out for more clarification. I may have confused you even more, I'm not great at explaining stuff like this:


http://golf.about.com/cs/tipslessons...downdammit.htm

[Kilroy]

Darn. My divots are the size of a $20 bill!

[Started2k3]

Does anybody have any slow motion (or frame by frame) footage of the club head (iron would be relevent to the discussion) compressing the golf ball on before and after impact?

[Kilroy]

The total time a ball is compressed over 18 holes is less than a second. The newest high speed cameras they are using on the PGA tour broadcasts show it really well, but I have not found anything on the net like that. They show it during lots of events now, so just stay tuned.

[kewarken]

Many of these experts talk of compressing the ball between the clubface and the turf. I do not believe there is any scientific basis for this argument. I think it's just a useful visualization tool. If this were the case, it would be impossible to hit on soft turf because the ball would push down into the turf. Also, balls would fly much further from hard ground because of the extra compression of the ball.

The key is that the club head is still travelling downwards when it hits the ball. This is why the divot appears _after_ the ball. This is why you get extra spin. Think of when you slice (backspin) a ball in a raquet sport by hitting in an up to down path across the ball. The divot is just margin of error. If you 'sweep' the ball, you're catching it at the very bottom of your swing arc and swinging even a fraction too high will blade it. The divot means you've caught the ball higher on the club face and thus are less likely to top it.

cheers,

Kris

[el tigre]

can someone explain to me what(hitting down on a ball is?)
i have practiced this at the range this season,and i just dont get it.
all i do is chunk/top it.:shake

Yeah, I know what you mean. The problem is when we CONSIOUSLY try and do something to make a swing change, we tend to overdo it.

Instead of trying to hit DOWN on the ball, simply try to hit the inside back quarter of the ball. (i.e., if the target is at 12 o'clock and the back of the ball is at 6 o'oclock, aim at the 7 o'clock spot). This is hard to do with a sweeping swing, so your body should naturally adjust to a more downward swing path to accomplish it. Good Luck!

[bobblehead]

I started working on hitting down/trapping the ball last summer...its a big swing change(at least for me). But when it does happen, you can feel a difference in the impact of the club head to the ball and it even sounds different(louder flat sound)...oh yeah and the ball goes further too. I'm still not confident with that swing change but its suppose to be the key to consistency...so they tell me. Good luck and keep working on it.

[Started2k3]

I hope to analyze some film of the impact, but here are my thoughts on how the shot works. I could be totally wrong ...

Basics:
The edge of the golf club blade makes contact with the ball between the equator and the bottom of the ball. Since the ball is at rest then the inertia of the ball will keep it at rest (initially) and the blade of the club will only deform (compress) the point of impact and around it. As the shot progresses the ball will continue to deform around the club's face, edge and a little bit below the edge, but the ball will now be accelerating also, which slows the deformation of the ball. Once the maximum compression is complete (based on club head speed, compression rating of the ball, etc) the ball should be moving at the same velocity as the club head. The ball will now rebound off the face of the club face. Since the bottom of the ball has been compressed more than the top of the ball the bottom of the ball will rebound more strongly (and possibly first), which is the source of the spin.

Hitting down:
Instead of the club head moving parallel to the ground (no divot), the club head is moving slightly down during impact (divot ahead of the ball). How does this change the shot? This would change the direction of the deformation at the point of blade edge ball contact. I like to think about this in terms of pool, if you want back spin on the cue ball then you hit the bottom half of the ball (almost horizontal cue), but if you want a lot of back spin then you increase the angle of attack with the cue. This has something to do with torque (and possibly angular momentum), but it has been too many years so I can no longer explain it. One thing to do to see it visually is to draw a circle (ball) and then draw two arrows showing the direction of impact coming from the same point of impact, it should be obvious that the slightly downward arrow would produce more spin than the parallel to the ground arrow.

Ground or Turf:
Because you are now "hitting down" on the ball the friction between the ball and the turf will be increased, which should keep the ball in place longer allowing the ball to compress for a longer period of time (remember we are talking about an almost immeasureablely short length of time, so any extra time is a long time). Soft surfaces like sand or if the ball is sitting high on top of the grass will reduce this friction, because the ball will be able to deform the surface it is laying on and hence loosing some of the spin effect.

Comments are welcomed.

I always find that if I have an idea about how the shot works then I can thing about how my swing needs to change to accomplish the shot. I have only been able to get this shot occationally and I was improving my consistency at it, until winter stopped me.

[Farzin]

In simple words, hit the ball at it's equator with the leading edge of the club while your hands are ahead of the club head at impact and that will do the trick. Do not try to swipe the club head under the ball. The downward/forward motion of the swing "the path of the lofted club head" at impact will cause the ball to be compressed creating a forward/upward ball flight with more spin. Thus creating a divot after the impact. Chunking is because of getting under the ball before impact. Try it with high lofted clubs at half swing not at full speed first. beware of your hands position at impact. It works for me when I do what I preach

[BC MIST]

One of the three essentials of a good golf swing is having the hands ahead of the ball at impact, as Farzin indicated. A downward blow results and a divot is taken. If the hands are opposite the ball at impact, no divot is taken and the ball is swept away. Now, if you are topping and/or hitting behind the ball, then your hands are behind the ball at impact

El tigre suggested that you should hit the inside back quadrant of the ball and if you do your hands will be ahead of the ball and your swing will likely be on the correct plane.

The key then is to develop your swing so that you right or trail wrist stays flexed backwards, to some degree, for the entire swing, save address. This is essential and can be developed in time, by a number of means, one of which is a drill device called the Power Click, available from Mark Evershed's website, www.t-g-s.com. When your right wrist flexes back at the start of the swing it clicks and the intent is to swing never letting it unclick. It is excellent.

I also have his "Sequence Tube" and this helps you start down correctly, but also helps you hold the right wrist angle, too. These devices, if used correctly, almost ensure that you will hit down on the inside of the ball. However, the reality is that you should consciously hit down on every shot, whether iron, fairway wood or driver.

My simple thought is to have the bottom groove of the iron make contact with the ball just below the ball's equator and when you do the sensation, particularly if you use forged blades, is almost orgasmic.

BTW: A good divot will cut a path in the ground at the target, and then curve to the left, but this could be the topic of another thread.

[LobWedge]

can someone explain to me what(hitting down on a ball is?)
i have practiced this at the range this season,and i just dont get it.
all i do is chunk/top it.:shake

You're on the right track. "Hitting down" or "increasing the angle of attack" is just a method of ensuring that you are making contact with the ball first, before making contact with the turf.

Topping is a result of making contact with the ball first, but you are hitting the ball to close to, or above it's equator. Chunking is the opposite. You make contact with the turf first.

Practice chipping to get the feeling of making clean contact on a slightly downward path with your hands slightly ahead of the ball at impact. Then move up to pitch shots employing the same principle. Once you have a good feel fo these, then move on to 1/2 then 3/4 swings, always working on the same form. Full swings should be no more than 80% effort. Remember that timing is the key. Distance and accuracy will come as a result of good timing.

BTW spin results mainly from the shearing force between the clubface and the ball, and "gear effect" (centre of gravity stuff). That includes sidespin and (ugh) topspin too.

[byerxa]

I was (and still am at times) a typical amateur that had an outside to in swing. For years I tried to hit "down" on the ball with generally crappy results. This year I finally took some video lessons and saw how much I was swinging from outside to in (I was shocked). Once I started to swing from the inside, it became way more natural to hit "down" on the ball. For me it became a natural part of the swing with nice straight shallow divots after the ball position. I finally started to get the sensation of releasing "at" the ball from the inside instead of trying hit "down" at it.

I realize everyone is different but for me the changing of the swing plane to be a more correct in to out move unlocked the whole thing for me and I started feeling and seeing all of the things the instructors and pros talk about. Now if I can get the short game under control...

[BC MIST]

I was (and still am at times) a typical amateur that had an outside to in swing. For years I tried to hit "down" on the ball with generally crappy results. This year I finally took some video lessons and saw how much I was swinging from outside to in (I was shocked). Once I started to swing from the inside, it became way more natural to hit "down" on the ball. For me it became a natural part of the swing with nice straight shallow divots after the ball position. I finally started to get the sensation of releasing "at" the ball from the inside instead of trying hit "down" at it.

I realize everyone is different but for me the changing of the swing plane to be a more correct in to out move unlocked the whole thing for me and I started feeling and seeing all of the things the instructors and pros talk about. Now if I can get the short game under

By hitting down on the ball a number of good things occur without your having to learn or consciously do them:
1. legs that get driven forward versus your driving your legs,
2. weight that gets shifted versus your shifting your weight,
3. golf shots that go up versus your "scooping" the ball,
4. A right shoulder that will go under the left,
5. a head that CANNOT come up before impact
All of these things will happen if you just hit down on the ball.

As golfers our perceptions of how we should swing greatly influence how we actually swing. Incorrect perceptions unfortunately do the same. A perception of having an inside out swing is not ideal, but better than actually swinging from outside in. The perception of having to release the club is incorrect. In a good swing the club gets released, but you don't consciously release it. Many golfers have the incorrect perception that they turn the shoulders. The reality is that the shoulders get turned. Or, that the golfer kocks his wrists, when the golfer only kocks the left wrist and it should not unkock at impact. The perception of a straight divot is better than one that cuts across the target line, but not the ideal of one that starts at the target and then curves left.

The hands are the major producers of club head speed and because they also control the trajectory of your shots, if you develop the perception that you are hitting down on the ball with your hands, particularly down and into the inside of the ball, progress is greatly accelerated.

Lastly,if you wonder where these misperceptions come from read this. It is a quote from a local instructor regarding ball position and the italics part relates to the hitting down and taking a divot. Old theory dictates that you move the ball within your stance with every club in your bag. You place the ball off the forward foot heel with a driver and move it back a little with each more lofted club until your pitching wedge ball position ends up towards your back foot heel. This theory, passed on from one golfer to another, is still prevalent but completely wrong. Simply put, the golf ball must always be placed at the low point of your swing arc. Since we swing the same with every club, ball position must remain constant Now if the ball is really supposed to be played "at the low point of your swing arc" then hitting down on the ball and taking a divot is IMPOSSIBLE.

BTW: Because most clubs are swingweight matched, they have to be played from different positions as SW matched clubs square up at different points. To be square at the same ball position the clubs should be MOI matched.

[byerxa]

Every golfer has different perceptions of what they think they are doing vs. what they are actually doing. That's why seeing yourself on video is crucial so you can better relate what you feel to what is really going on. For me, getting the swing plane from out to in to in to out requires a conscious effort for me (effect of undoing years of bad swing habits). The next person will have completely different sensations, hence I imagine this is one of the biggest challenge for instructors. I will agree with BC MIST that with a proper swing plane the release is natural and automatic; I personally am much more able to go "at" the ball with a proper in-out move instead of walking a tightrope with an out-in move. I also agree with him on ball position - it should match the bottom of your swing arc, period.

In the end my only point was that I found trying to hit down on the ball was very difficult with an out to in "from the top" swing plane.

[BC MIST]

Every golfer has different perceptions of what they think they are doing vs. what they are actually doing. That's why seeing yourself on video is crucial so you can better relate what you feel to what is really going on. For me, getting the swing plane from out to in to in to out requires a conscious effort for me (effect of undoing years of bad swing habits). The next person will have completely different sensations, hence I imagine this is one of the biggest challenge for instructors. I will agree with BC MIST that with a proper swing plane the release is natural and automatic; I personally am much more able to go "at" the ball with a proper in-out move instead of walking a tightrope with an out-in move. I also agree with him on ball position - it should match the bottom of your swing arc, period.
In the end my only point was that I found trying to hit down on the ball was very difficult with an out to in "from the top" swing plane.

As learning an inside move to the ball is very difficult for any golfer, particularly if you were once an outside swinger, how long did it take you to accomplish this? For most it is a lifetime, but it sounds like you do this in short order.

If I may correct one thing about the ball position. I disagree that the ball position should be at the bottom of the arc with anything other than perhaps a driver. Iron shots at the arc's bottom will be thinned resulting in a loss of distance. The bottom of the arc should be 2" to 4" on the green side of the ball.

[byerxa]

BT MIST:

You're right about ball position - the ball must be hit first with anything but the driver. The driver, of course, is hit on the upswing somewhat. I was just agreeing with the quote you printed regarding all of the different advice about ball position. And my statement of releasing "at" the ball is not a good description - for me a good swing almost feels (to me) like I am swinging through the ball from behind me, like I can really rip at it from the "slot" without having to be handsy to control the thing. It feels like I am coming from behind me, but on video it looks like a half-decent swing from inside-out.

As for the "inside" move, it took me about 2 sessions of seeing myself on video to manage to hit a couple of shots from the inside. It didn't take long, mainly because I was screwing around with my swing so much on my own that I was doing bad things, but most were not really habits due to the churn. Seeing myself on video was almost embarassing, but very enlightening. It has been virtually a revelation to my shot making. I still fight the over the top move, although I am gradually winning the war in making the inside-out "move" my goto natural swing. I had a few rounds this summer where it was almost magic (for me, at least) how well I hit the ball when swinging "properly". However, I came to the stark realization that you just can't get into the 70s if you can't get up and down - my focus for '05!

Again, my main point to all of my jabbering was relating my experience of when I tried hitting down on the ball with an over the top move it was very difficult and how it became very natural once I cleaned up my swing plane. I also realise my experience is probably unique (as is everyones on this cursed journey).