Vijay or Tiger?

[Colby]

When has Tiger EVER acted in an unsportsmanlike manner? Name the event and the act.

I was waiting for the Arnold, Jack card. It usually pops up when people have run out of ammo. When Jack was younger he also had his fair share of critics for different, yet equally petty reasons.

Swearing for a bad shot is unsportsmanlike in golf. It doesn't have to be an act towards another player to make it unsportsmanlike. If you were to play softball in the Ottawa-Nepean league, I have seen guys kicked out of games for swearing when the hit the ball for an easy out.

Tiger is held to a higher level. Why? Because the media and fans have built him up to it. He's not known to be the bad boy of golf. There are a number of others who fit this role. Tiger is the clean cut hero of the working class. Someone who was special from a young age. Someone who publicly gives to charities. Someone who has set up a foundation for underpriviliged kids, at least I think that part of his foundation does this. He's in the public eye, and held up for greater scrutiny whether he wants it or not. And because of that, he has to be better than everyone in everything! If he is not, it is bad. It's unfair, but true. Tiger needs to figure out if the $$$ are worth the effort. If they aren't, time to retire and make babies with the swedish hottie!

[Kilroy]

If they aren't, time to retire

Then we'd have to discuss Vijay. That would be dull.

[NoBack]

NOooooooooo dont do it. Don't take all the fun away from us Tiger. Please keep the mouth a-flappin!!

[Andru]

Swearing for a bad shot is unsportsmanlike in golf. It doesn't have to be an act towards another player to make it unsportsmanlike. If you were to play softball in the Ottawa-Nepean league, I have seen guys kicked out of games for swearing when the hit the ball for an easy out.

Tiger is held to a higher level. Why? Because the media and fans have built him up to it. He's not known to be the bad boy of golf. There are a number of others who fit this role. Tiger is the clean cut hero of the working class. Someone who was special from a young age. Someone who publicly gives to charities. Someone who has set up a foundation for underpriviliged kids, at least I think that part of his foundation does this. He's in the public eye, and held up for greater scrutiny whether he wants it or not. And because of that, he has to be better than everyone in everything! If he is not, it is bad. It's unfair, but true. Tiger needs to figure out if the $$$ are worth the effort. If they aren't, time to retire and make babies with the swedish hottie!

Sportsmanship

1) The fact or practice of participating in sports or a sport.
2) Conduct and attitude considered as befitting participants in sports, especially fair play, courtesy, striving spirit, and grace in losing.

Given this definition I'm willing to conceed part of this very loose fitting adjective to describe Tiger's <whispering now> Swearing. shhh. The reason I say loose is the only part of this definition that applies is the courtesy part. That's something we'll never agree on. If your argument is it's not courteous to the fans then unsportsmanlike doesn't really apply here. The participants is the key word here.

Th rest I'd say Tiger exhibits all of the other qualities. Right down to grace in losing. Win or lose he always removes his hat and looks his opponent in the eye and shakes his hand. I've seen it, we've all seen it.

[jbrace]

You can't plead complete innocence here. You know perfectly well adding a story about some kids freaking out ( while mentioning Tiger as a favourite), to a thread, that has been turned into a discussion about Tiger's behavior, is going to be viewed as an attempt to solidify an argument.

No, it was not meant to "solidify an argument". In your fanatical defense of Tiger, you took it that way and that's unfortunate. In the case of my story, it's obvious that Tiger's behaviour was an influence on these kids; and I posted it in response to a suggestion that it is entirely impossible for a kid to emulate Tiger just because he/she sees him on TV slamming his driver into his bag (for example). I am not arguing that Tiger is a bad influence on kids everywhere. In fact, I went on to mention that most of the kids (read: Tiger fans) I have met are well mannered. Why would I say this if I was trying to "solidify an argument"???

Completely inaccurate. you know where to find the real numbers. The pga fines people for this kind of behaviour. If you really want to know who does it the most check those stats.

I'm not talking about "Finable offences". We all know there are other players who swear and cuss more than Tiger. Most PGA tour players cuss under their breath or shake their head, or whatever when they make a piss poor shot (like knocking it OB or into a hazard). From what I have observed, Tiger tends to do these things after every shot that does not go his way (i.e. middle of the fairway, 2 ft from the hole, etc.) Again, this is just what I have seen; and only in the past year or so. I don't remember seeing this from him a few years ago. Yes, I know - "Well he's a perfectionist yada yada yada..." but gimme a break. Let me reiterate: I simply think it's too bad that he is playing good golf and still seems dissatisfied. That's the only point I'm trying to get across. You say "None of that matters. I still love him and always will:readheart", I think it does matter . Let's just agree to disagree on that. But one simple question though: Do you, or do you not agree, that Tiger's

It's ALL about winning.

Again, let's agree to disagree. I just don't think winning should be the "be all end all" even to a PGA tour player. Of course everyone likes to win and it's a noble thing to strive to be the best you can be. But at the end of the day, does it really matter as long as you have a decent life and have done your best? (Yes, I realize how cheezy that sounds, no need for the "puking" smilie. If Tiger's answer to that is yes, then that is indeed a sad way to live, being obsessed with winning and not appreciating/enjoying the results of that success...

Tiger took his hat off and acknowledged the crowd when he received the ovation walking up 18 on Sunday

.
Fair enough.

One final note. Tiger wasn't in the last group on Sunday. So he can't stand around when there's a group in the fairway waiting to play up

Really? I was waiting for him to dance a newfie jig for Monty and Jay Haas who were waiting back in the fairway (insert sarcastic eye-rolling here). You're right. He displayed the appropriate emotions for a guy who finally won again against a strong field (and let's not forget winning is everything).
Just to clarify my position in case you are lumping me in with the Tiger-haters:

1. I do not hate Tiger. I like to watch him play and hit shots that only he is capable of. I respect his playing ability. It's his attitude I don't understand.

2. I don't think Tiger is bad for the game. He has had a tremendous positive influence on how it's played, who plays it, etc. He is an icon for the modern game and thus I think he should have a responsibilty to conduct himself in a manner that would not be expected of other players. Is that fair? No, not at all, but that's the way it goes.

3. I think Tiger is to be commended for all the charity work he does. Sure, you will always get the Tiger bashers saying "well, he's rolling in the dough, so that's the least he can do..." Bull. The guy does more than his fair share.

[Colby]

Sportsmanship

1) The fact or practice of participating in sports or a sport.
2) Conduct and attitude considered as befitting participants in sports, especially fair play, courtesy, striving spirit, and grace in losing.

Given this definition I'm willing to conceed part of this very loose fitting adjective to describe Tiger's <whispering now> Swearing. shhh. The reason I say loose is the only part of this definition that applies is the courtesy part. That's something we'll never agree on. If your argument is it's not courteous to the fans then unsportsmanlike doesn't really apply here. The participants is the key word here.

Th rest I'd say Tiger exhibits all of the other qualities. Right down to grace in losing. Win or lose he always removes his hat and looks his opponent in the eye and shakes his hand. I've seen it, we've all seen it.

Absolutely. I really like the fact that Tiger removes his hat, it shows good sportsmanship and respect towards his fellow competitors. But the swearing at bad shots is not considered good conduct or attitude in golf, which is supposed to be a sport unlike any other.

[golfmania]

When has Tiger EVER acted in an unsportsmanlike manner? Name the event and the act.

I was waiting for the Arnold, Jack card. It usually pops up when people have run out of ammo. When Jack was younger he also had his fair share of critics for different, yet equally petty reasons.

Ok, you win , you win...Tired of arguing about it...you asked, I answered, you change tacts, I answer...blah, blah, blah...pointless.

Has anyone on here every said, "You know , I see your point." It's just opinion, Andru...your opinion differs, mine differs...doesn't make it right or wrong. Good for you for only seeing the positive values in Tiger. I hope you apply it to everyone you meet, because its probably a good way to look at the world.

[Kilroy]

Has anyone on here every said, "You know , I see your point."

No, but I think I see your point

[golfmania]

No, but I think I see your point

[golfmania]

I just don't think winning should be the "be all end all" even to a PGA tour player. Of course everyone likes to win and it's a noble thing to strive to be the best you can be. But at the end of the day, does it really matter as long as you have a decent life and have done your best?

Well said. Good to see that opinion still exists.

[Andru]

Ok, you win , you win...Tired of arguing about it...you asked, I answered, you change tacts, I answer...blah, blah, blah...pointless.

Has anyone on here every said, "You know , I see your point." It's just opinion, Andru...your opinion differs, mine differs...doesn't make it right or wrong. Good for you for only seeing the positive values in Tiger. I hope you apply it to everyone you meet, because its probably a good way to look at the world.

I acknowledge opinions based on more than anecdotal observations. Everyone has an opinion. The idea of debating is to convince the other person that yours is more accurate or fair or whatever the criteria. I see eveyone's point. I don't think it's necessary to stroke people. If I don't include something you've written in a post it's likely I understand. I only quote things I don't a) understand or b) believe. In this case you stated he behaves in an unsportsmanlike manner. I asked you to name the time and the place. As it tuns out, I believe our definition of unsportsmanlike is different.

[Andru]

No, it was not meant to "solidify an argument". In your fanatical defense of Tiger, you took it that way and that's unfortunate. In the case of my story, it's obvious that Tiger's behaviour was an influence on these kids; and I posted it in response to a suggestion that it is entirely impossible for a kid to emulate Tiger just because he/she sees him on TV slamming his driver into his bag (for example).

Exactly So it was used to solidfy your point that Tiger influenced these kids. I was correct. You just said it.

My origianl post pertaining to the influence is this:

If A child spends dramatically more time with his Father or Mother than he watchs Tiger on TV there's no way the child slamming the club is a result of Tiger. It's not obvious his behavior is responsible for those kids actions. That's where I get a little miffed. How can you draw such categorical conclusions from that example? I agree it's suspicious but hardly anything to take to the bank. tha kid may slam his hockey stick as well. And quote seeing Redden do it.

1) I never called you a Tiger Hater.

2) I'm not defending anyone. I'm trying to separate the facts from the fiction. It's gets blurred somtimes.

3) I completely understand where your coming from in terms of his appearance on television. Yes he looks sour and yes he could smile more. All Im saying is It's not how he plays. He has goals and he only knows one way to do it. If the worst of it is some people taking exception to his outside appearance and some cursing. Well you'll always have critics. and it's a part of being the best. It's happened to Gretzky, Jordan, Nicklaus, Montana, Ali, Beckham etc etc. It's just the way humans are. I'm sorry if you feel offended that I'm attempting to reduce your concerns with Tiger as a jealous rebellion against success. I'm probably wrong about you, but in order for you to understand that this isn't a "fanatical defense of and idol", I have to openly express my thougths. Like you said we can agree to disagree.

[jbrace]

Exactly So it was used to solidfy your point that Tiger influenced these kids. I was correct. You just said it.

(SIGH) Unbelievable.
1. The story suggests a possible correlation between Tiger's poor behaviour and that of these kids. It really is that simple. I'm willing to retract the part that "in this case it's obvious..." even if it is to me.
2. A point is not an argument (the last time I checked). So no, you were not correct. I refuse to get into a spitting contest about this. (sorry)

there's no way the child slamming the club is a result of Tiger.

This is where we differ in opinion. You say there's NO WAY. I say it's possible. It's a minor thing, but when someone says "there's no way..." when there is a way, that's where I get a little miffed .

I'm sorry if you feel offended...

I'm not offended at all. This is a healthy discussion, right? I don't get offended when someone disagrees with me, as long as it does not get personal.

I'm attempting to reduce your concerns with Tiger as a jealous rebellion against success.

Is that what you're doing? Funny, I never took it that way. I guess that's because I'm not jealous of Tiger's "UBER" success.

I'm probably wrong about you

There's no "probably" about it. (kidding)

A silly season tournament on a course that is not set up to PGA standards. Nice touch by donating the money to charity. What I could have done without is the f* bombs and the g*dm*its when a shot goes offline. Grow up already.

Colby, it seems you and I are very much in sync with our opinions on this matter. This pretty much sums up my sentiments exactly.

[Andru]

(SIGH) Unbelievable.
1. The story suggests a possible correlation between Tiger's poor behaviour and that of these kids. It really is that simple. I'm willing to retract the part that "in this case it's obvious..." even if it is to me.

Dude you didn't say there "may be correlation". You said "it's obvious". And that's what I responded to. So the banging head and the nonsense is unnecessary.

2. A point is not an argument (the last time I checked). So no, you were not correct. I refuse to get into a spitting contest about this. (sorry)

You're mistaken This is no contest.

[jbrace]

YEE-HAW!!! Isn't this fun?

So the banging head and the nonsense is unnecessary.

The banging head was meant to be a symbol of my frustration with being misunderstood. I "mistyped" (is that a word?) in my previous post. Anyways, no offence was intended, but it was necessary - it made me feel better.

You're mistaken This is no contest.

Ah, touche.

Now, what was this post originally all about again?

[Kilroy]

Now, what was this post originally all about again?

I'm not sure, but I think Vijay was breifly mentioned about three pages back.

[jbrace]

I'm not sure, but I think Vijay was breifly mentioned about three pages back.

Ah yes. I see the original topic lasted less than one half of the first page before the focus shifted to Tiger's attitude, whether it's good or bad, does it matter, etc.

Now back on topic: If this past weekend is indication of Tiger's comeback, he could be the man again in '05. The big talk was that he had "found something". I was watching him (his swing) closely trying to pick up what he was doing differently and the only thing I noticed was that he seemed a little more upright, especially in his follow through and he looked like he was finishing "higher". Did anyone else notice this?

[Kilroy]

And what the heck happened to Vijay last weekend anyway? Pretty poor showing. Why would he push himself well into the off season? He needs to go fishing.

[EDSGOLF]

I wonder if Calibogie (this thread starter) knew what he/she was getting into when he/she asked this question? Must be a record for the most replies by a rookie. I just e-mailed Tiger on his website and invited him to join us and to defend himself, crossing my fingures

[golfmania]

I believe our definition of unsportsmanlike is different.

Im not stroking anyone, sorry you see it that way.

Clearly, you don't see the term unsportmanslike as applicable. Seeing as its a subjective interpretation, maybe you should open it up to a poll. Something like "Do you think throwing your club down in frustration is acceptable at the PGA level?"

Then you could make the argument that it doesn't matter what the majority thinks.

Then you could say that there's more pressure than anyone can understand.

In short, you can argue anything, to death, if you want. Good luck.

[golfmania]

And what the heck happened to Vijay last weekend anyway? Pretty poor showing. Why would he push himself well into the off season? He needs to go fishing.

Can't win em all...

[Andru]

Im not stroking anyone, sorry you see it that way.

Clearly, you don't see the term unsportmanslike as applicable. Seeing as its a subjective interpretation, maybe you should open it up to a poll. Something like "Do you think throwing your club down in frustration is acceptable at the PGA level?"

Then you could make the argument that it doesn't matter what the majority thinks.

Then you could say that there's more pressure than anyone can understand.

In short, you can argue anything, to death, if you want. Good luck.

Well no There's a definition of sportsmanlike and you can ask the question

Is throwing a club down in frustration at the pga level.

1) a detrement to the participants.
2) cause unfair play
3) does not show courtesy
4) does not display a striving spirit
5) does not show grace in losing.

Well. I guess if you were to debate an item it would be 3 I can agree on this. 5 can also be debated. Five will really open a can because now you have to decide when has someone actually lost. Any takers? Just kidding. I think it's run it's course. I'll leave the floor open if anyone wants the last word.

Nice thread what's next?

[Agent99]

Agent 99,
Why the code of silence here?

Been tied up recently. Hope you understand. Just part of the j.o.b.

Why the code of silence? I’d be glad to tell you if you can meet me way out in left field, by the fence. You’ll know which field & fence because I’ll be there sitting on it some of the time. So not to look out of place, I’ll be dressed in an Anne of Green Gables disguise (I :readheart PEI), or a fencer. Can’t decide. If you want, you could look like a professional golfer.


Si ya?
99

[NoBack]

I wonder if Calibogie (this thread starter) knew what he/she was getting into when he/she asked this question? Must be a record for the most replies by a rookie. I just e-mailed Tiger on his website and invited him to join us and to defend himself, crossing my fingures

Now you know why when I welcomed him, I also kinda chuckled at the question at hand and the already famous answers we were going to have for him. Rookies :shake

[Calibogie]

My mother always said I was a s*h*i*t disturber. Soooooooooooooooooooo, back to my original question. Will Vijay have game this year or not??

[EDSGOLF]

Will Vijay have game this year or not??

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!! Not another Calibogie question :cryin

[NoBack]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!! Not another Calibogie question :cryin

[mberube]

If my name was Tiger Woods and so much energy was spent talking about me and if my name was mentioned in the same discussion as Jack, Arnold and even VJ’s name well my response would be….I have done pretty good things for golf.

If I remember correctly, Tiger organises a huge tournament every year to raise money for kids. He also donates his earnings in that tournament, counting $1.2 million that he won this year. If that is not some thing kids can look up to, I don’t know what is. Name me ONE Pro sports athlete that gives back equally on more then he does. I can’t think of one.

IMHO Tiger is a very good influence on kids. He is a perfect example of a hard working athlete that never quits. YES HE CURSES AND OCCASIONALLY HITS HIS CLUB ON THE GROUND but look at all the other sports out there. Violence is a factor in all the other sports that kids watch. I have never seen Tiger swing his 9 iron on Phil’s head or pick a fight with VJ. IMO that is more damaging for a kid then what Tiger does. For more recent memories I have never seen a PGA player run in the crowed and pick a fight with the fans.

[NoBack]

Name me ONE Pro sports athlete that gives back equally on more then he does. I can’t think of one.

Are you saying becuase he gave $1.2 million that he made less than that for himself off of golf? Didnt he make $70 miliion in endorsement in 2004 not to mention appearance fees and other winnings.

As for tournament he organises, I think most pros organise one or two in their home town evry yesr. Jaclk and Anold did it. John Daly does it, Fred Couples does it, and the list goes on. These all for charity too.

That was only a few golfers. How about Bobby Orr and MIke Bossy always putting on hockey camps, even after all these years of being retired. The list would go on for all sports.

Cost of few extra autographs??? Priceless.

[jeffc]

Looks like Ricky Barnes is making Tiger look like a choir boy...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200....ap/index.html