Cavity vs Blades

[Marcos]

That is exactly what I have decided for myself. I do not have the talent nor the patience or time to work on my game. I was not a junior golfer,started in my middle 40's and this is who I am. I am sure your 69 year old friend was a junior golfer and is more athletic than I am. Dont get me wrong, I have a few other sets and some of them are CB's but I enjoy my game so much more when I pure a few shots during my game. This discution is getting off topic so I will refrain from any other comments.

As a better player I see many higher handicap players with clubs either ill-fitted or not designed for their game. Considering the majority of people want to shoot the lowest score possible they are giving up potential strokes.

Please refer me to a study that concludes that "the merits of cb are far overstated." Unless only good players miss the sweet spot then no, they benefit anyone who misses the center of the clubface.

Marcos: I play frequently with a 69 year old who breaks par often on a very difficult golf course; you've only reached your potential if that's what you have decided for yourself.

[leftylucas]

I have played both, I tried some nice blades when I thought my ball striking was good enough and found that I still needed the forgiveness of the cavity back. I have gone down to a smaller CB from the shovels that I was using (GBB Hawkeye) and some day I hope to be at the point where I will require blades to work the ball better and perhaps have more success.

[Chieflongtee]

i don't see any blade players using little bitty drivers

[Wknd_Warrior]

Please refer me to a study that concludes that "the merits of cb are far overstated." Unless only good players miss the sweet spot then no, they benefit anyone who misses the center of the clubface.

It's my opinion, and I've heard it from others as well, nothing I can quote and I know of no study. If all the game was was a driving range then I'd be more inclined to agree. I'm not sure anyone with a high handicap should care what knid of clubs they are using, blade or CB, as long as they are reasonably well designed.
The reason it helps better golfers is they hit one or two more greens in a round which has a significant impact on their handicap. Mid to high cappers, not so much, we only hit a couple greens a round anyhow, it doesn't matter if we chip from 3 yards or ten yards.

[Wknd_Warrior]

I used to, but I caved

[jonf]

As a better player I see many higher handicap players with clubs either ill-fitted or not designed for their game. Considering the majority of people want to shoot the lowest score possible they are giving up potential strokes.

Your assertion is that most players' primary goal is to shoot the best possible score in any given round (in which case CB might be the best choice. If on the other hand, their goal is to improve their game and reach their maximum potential, blades may be the superior choice.

[stone_bone]

i don't see any blade players using little bitty drivers

Drivers and irons are two different animals however some better players, probably those playing blades prefer smaller heads, square to open clubface, higher CG which kinda translates to cb vs blades.

Also not all cb and blades are created equal. If you have ever played the Nike Splitback and TW forged. You will probably find the that the TW is easier to hit solid more consistently. This can be accounted for by the lower more rearward COG. If you compare their MPF the TW rates quite a bit higher because of this. I know there is alot of debate on the MPF but if you understand golf club dynamics and factors that affect ball flight you can't deny the basis of the MPF.

[jvincent]

On another site one of the regulars make the following arguement for why CBs actually help better players more than high handicappers.

1. High handicappers misses tend to be as follows:
- Swing path completely off line. CBs don't help this.
- Face angle way closed or way open. CBs won't fix this kind of miss.
- Hitting the ball way fat or thin. Again, CBs won't help this miss.

2. Low handicappers misses tend to be as follows:
- On path, center face contact most of the time.
- Misses tend to be slightly off center and a CB will help the ball not be short.

The arguement makes a lot of sense. So, all you low index guys, drop the blades and get some CBs!

[nokids]

If on the other hand, their goal is to improve their game and reach their maximum potential, blades may be the superior choice.

That was my logic as well. As soon as I knew I was going to take golf seriously I bought the xforged blades and said to myself I'm going to learn to hit these clubs.

[Golfbum]

My thoughts will not count as I do not live in Ottawa

A hack once told me "I'd rather hit one pure shot a round with my blades than hit solid shots all day with CB's" Myself, I would rather have a good score to enter for handicap purposes.

I play with a scratch golfer once in awhile. This guy is good. His lowest iron in his bag this season is a 7 iron. 7-PW are forged CB's. 3-6, hybrids.

Chuckle if you want but this guy hits it 280 all day off the tee( the real 280+ yards, not the imaginary yardage that most guys use) and in the fairway. So he is not a flash in the pan. He is just plain good. When I asked him why he went to the 6 hybrid this year he said "Because I was not happy with the way I hit the 6 iron. I like the ball flight of the hybrid better and it is easier to hit" Hmmmmmm, imagine that, a scratch golfer saying something like that?

How about the Pro at my course? 3-4-5 hybrids and he is not playing blades.

No one I play with uses blades. In fact I worked at the course I belong to now, in the club storage and I can not recall anyone using blades.

Play em if you want to, it's your game. The idea that it makes you a better ball striker is crap. Your swing makes you a better ball striker. Not the fact you are getting feed back from blades as you skank the ball all over the course. However, as I said, play em if you want.

I just changed irons today from MP-57's to TM Burner 2.0 and I can't wait to hit them tomorrow. BTW, my irons start at the 5 iron. But I also have a 5 hybrid I can put in my bag and let me tell you that thing is far easier to hit than a 5 iron.

I am a 9 handicap on a course with a slope of 126 and rating of 71.6, 6500 yards of tough golf course. Not a hope in hell I would put blades in my bag.

[bNeill]

That was my logic as well. As soon as I knew I was going to take golf seriously I bought the xforged blades and said to myself I'm going to learn to hit these clubs.

Those are cavity backs if we're being honest with ourselves.

My thoughts will not count as I do not live in Ottawa

A hack once told me "I'd rather hit one pure shot a round with my blades than hit solid shots all day with CB's" Myself, I would rather have a good score to enter for handicap purposes.

I play with a scratch golfer once in awhile. This guy is good. His lowest iron in his bag this season is a 7 iron. 7-PW are forged CB's. 3-6, hybrids.

Chuckle if you want but this guy hits it 280 all day off the tee( the real 280+ yards, not the imaginary yardage that most guys use) and in the fairway. So he is not a flash in the pan. He is just plain good. When I asked him why he went to the 6 hybrid this year he said "Because I was not happy with the way I hit the 6 iron. I like the ball flight of the hybrid better and it is easier to hit" Hmmmmmm, imagine that, a scratch golfer saying something like that?

How about the Pro at my course? 3-4-5 hybrids and he is not playing blades.

No one I play with uses blades. In fact I worked at the course I belong to now, in the club storage and I can not recall anyone using blades.

Play em if you want to, it's your game. The idea that it makes you a better ball striker is crap. Your swing makes you a better ball striker. Not the fact you are getting feed back from blades as you skank the ball all over the course. However, as I said, play em if you want.

I just changed irons today from MP-57's to TM Burner 2.0 and I can't wait to hit them tomorrow. BTW, my irons start at the 5 iron. But I also have a 5 hybrid I can put in my bag and let me tell you that thing is far easier to hit than a 5 iron.

I am a 9 handicap on a course with a slope of 126 and rating of 71.6, 6500 yards of tough golf course. Not a hope in hell I would put blades in my bag.

Third last paragraph is right on.

[Wknd_Warrior]

You guys are building them up way too much and making something out of nothing. I can't beleive you have to full out a form and get a blessing from the queen these days just to hit a blade golf club. The worst part about blades is deadling with all the hooplah if you play them and you're not Tiger Woods. I guess at least with CB you have the respect of every one in the "know".

#1 reason to hit a CN. You can swing harder and still have a chance of hitting the ball so you can delude yourself into thinking your mid capper swing hits the ball as far as Tiger Woods. It's all about money and selling dreams.

I don't deny that each player has the perfect set of clubs that would shave that extra stroke or two off his game, but it's way overplayed, mostly because noone want to be seen as someone who isn't mature enough to realize they shouldn't play with blades. If you like 'em hit 'em.

btw, where are the studies that show how much more accuracte CB are than blades with a mi? You can take it for granted, but I've never seen the proof oddly enough. It makes me wonder how much if it is just the impression versus the actual result.

[Wknd_Warrior]

Play em if you want to, it's your game. The idea that it makes you a better ball striker is crap. Your swing makes you a better ball striker. Not the fact you are getting feed back from blades as you skank the ball all over the course. However, as I said, play em if you want.

In what universe is feedback not a usefull part of improving?

[Wknd_Warrior]

yknow, in my late twenties, before I stoped playing for a while I was getting close to single digits, I didn't keep a HC, but looking back doing the math. This is in the 80s with balata balls. The absolute last thing I worried about was missing an iron shot, quite the opposite, they were the best part of my game. All this focus just to improve one aspect of the game an inderterminent amount is mind boggling. If you want to shoot lower scores, practise your short game. Any low capper should know this, so why the long debates pimping CB fueled by respectable low cappers? because it helps your game. And then only a bit. And only the kind of game where consistency if valued above precision. It's like there's no benifits to playing blades at all. How about better trajectory, more accuracy overall, better feedback, better spin.

What are the clubs that matter anyhow, outside of 150 yards? Is having 10% more accuracy with a 4i really going to lower my handicap? If you hit the ball consistently but still mi a handfull and you are better off with less painful mis above all else, then CB will help yuo. I'm not sure of any other case where it does. Hackers will swear up and down at half the shots they make in a round whether they hit CB or not, who really cares. I guess if they have CB in their bag they don't have to worry about other golfers laughing up their sleeves at them.

I remember when the industry first came out with GI clubs, the big offset Fred Flintstone irons, tell me I should play those based on my cap and I'll teach you some new words. Those weren't golf clubs. At least now the clubs are rational, I still think they're selling false hope. Hitting the bal lwill improve your game, nothing else.

[Golfbum]

In what universe is feedback not a usefull part of improving?

Ok so you hit one off the toe with a blade. Instant feed back right?

So you hit one off the toe of a CB. Instant feedback because the ball did not go any where close to where you wanted it to go.

Now here is another thought. I'd be willing to bet that most golfers do not even get fit for their irons. Why go buy a set of nice forged blades and not get fit for your swing? But it happens constantly, and I know because I worked part time in the golf retail business at a very busy golf store.

Like I said in my original post, play em if you want, get that instant feedback when you miss hit a shot and make a smooth double.

I will be the first to admit I do not like the big "Shovels" that were classified as GI irons.

However today's irons look great and can be GI irons. I know those Burner 2.0's I just put in the bag yesterday are pretty sweet looking sticks IMO. So are the new Callaway Razors.

I would have to say that my first set of GI irons was a set of TaylorMade 200's. I was fit for those irons and those things were so easy to hit it was scary. My index dropped 2.5 strokes within one month of putting those irons in my bag. And they were not clunky looking irons either.

Like everyone else I love the looks of blades. But I am not about to put them in my bag based solely on looks.

[Chieflongtee]

http://razzett.org/ping-golf-bag/lea...ns-985395.html

Question:

I don’t disagree with your point. You must have exceptional "feel". But, if you do hit right on the sweetspot of a cavity back club, you do not get the consistency of distance that you would get by hitting the sweetspot of a blade.
this is absolute rubbish. as somebody who played blades for around 13 years, from my very first set. my current set of top-flite tours which i’ve had for about 2 years now are the first non blades i’ve owned. there is 0% difference between them when you catch a blade and a cavity out of the sweet spot. the biggest difference is actually in the blades. catch say a 5i sweet and i’m knocking it out say 175m with blade and with my top-flites. now if i don’t catch one out of the center the difference in consistency with the blades goes downhill i might only hit it 160. with the cavity i’m still around the 170 mark.

This is why a lot of pros still use blades.
no this is also not true. most pros use blades for the feel they afford, as well as the flight you can put on a ball with them. most cavity backs have a significantly lower cg than blades so the ball flight is more parabolic with them. blades have a cg which is about in the middle of the club which offers a more boring ball flight which most pros feel is better. probably the last reason that so many pros use blades is just history. it wasn’t until about the mid 80’s that decent quality cavity backs were produced. most of these guys have grown up using nothing but blades and so continue to do so. i personally feel that you’ll see a slow phasing out of true muscle back blades in pro golf over the next 15 years. it’s already gone from almost 100% of players using blades 15 years ago to today probably around

50%.

[nokids]

Those are cavity backs if we're being honest with ourselves.

lol yes you're right, they're in the players cavity back category.

http://reviews.golfwrx.com/products/1327

[Golfbum]

First round after changing from MP-57's to TM Burner 2.0's.

Lowest score of the season. More greens in regulation. Index dropped one point when the score went in the computer.

Ball flight much higher and now with a nice draw.

I think I will keep these in the bag for at least a month

Better iron shots lead to more confidence through out my game.

[Wknd_Warrior]

Sure, I wasn't really pimping the whole feedback versus no feedback thing, just responding to your post.

Ball flight much higher and now with a nice draw.

Two things I wouldn't want.

It's the balls I skank into the pond par 3s that make me think, "there's a shot a CB may have saved my but", or so they say. But circumstances like that are so few and far between I don't see the advantage in my game and I don't like the feel. Personally if I have to worry about skanking all my irons I really don't care about my score at all since I'm playing so bad. Any half decent swing will get a reasonable result with any iron. It's not that I don't think there are advantages, I just think they are a lot less than people have been led to beleive by others telling them what they "should" be playing. I thnk you low cappers see a profound improvement because the extra forgiveness actually gives you more birdie attempts etc...so you naturally think if they are good for you, people not as good as you better be playing them. While we all might make a better score with more forgiving clubs I just don't think it's that simple. High cappers should be more worried about their swing anyhow than a bit of forgiviness a bad game isn't going to notice.

[Golfbum]

Apparently many of you have a different goal in golf than I do.

My goal is go to out on the course and shoot the lowest scores that I can. My goal is not to go out on the course, hit bad iron shots (with blades) and think, "Hmmmm, gotta work on that on the range"

Making birdies, isn't fun? Having the chance to make more birdies in a round is not fun?

And there are guys I golf with who would kill to have a nice high draw with their irons. Much like I want to get back to being able to fade the ball when need arises.

Come on folks, take a good hard look at the pros. They have equipment in their bags which helps them shoot low scores. That is where the money is.

Hey if you are happy shooting higher scores with blades then go be happy. Again, my goal is to lower my scores.

[jonf]

I will re-iterate my earlier assertion: If most players' primary goal is to shoot the best possible score in any given round, CBs might be the best choice. If on the other hand, their goal is to improve their game and reach their maximum potential, blades may be the superior choice.

My goal in golf is to eventually be able to go really really low. I don't like the 80s, and I don't want to see them any more. I may be giving up a stroke or two now on wildly off-centre hits that a CB might correct, but I also know exactly where all my misses are, which I find is helping me to correct, as I need to.

[Golfbum]

"Hey Ed, I have a nice set of forged blades in my bag now"

"Is that right Bob, how do you like them?"

"Well Ed I love em, when I hit a shot pure it is awesome. I hit 3-4 shots that were pure today"

"What did you shoot Bob?"

"I shot 95 Ed, but man I hit a few pure iron shots with those blades"

[Wilster]

For those who have never hit a blade , when you skull a 3 iron , there is no feeling quite like it

I grew up playing blades as a beginner (all that was available to me) and i thank the people that invented CB's , it makes the game that little bit easier.

If your good enough to game them , do it . If your not .... its your choice but your not giving yourself any advantage by playing blades.

[Golfbum]

For those who have never hit a blade , when you skull a 3 iron , there is no feeling quite like it

I grew up playing blades as a beginner (all that was available to me) and i thank the people that invented CB's , it makes the game that little bit easier.

If your good enough to game them , do it . If your not .... its your choice but your not giving yourself any advantage by playing blades.

Well spoken right there. I just can not grasp why any amateur golfer would want to make the game harder than it already is.

You hear, "Instant feedback" "Pure shots" "I can work the ball" etc etc

Meanwhile they are struggling to break 90 on most days on courses that are not that tough.

If that is enjoying the game then I must be missing something here. I thought enjoying the game involved great shots, (not just one or two a round with BLADES" and low scores.

After 29 years of golfing I have now found out I am searching for the wrong things in golf. I am supposed to be playing blades, hitting the odd pure shot and not scoring low.

I guess all the major manufacturers of golf clubs have it all wrong too. Pushing those game improvement irons at us every year. Ping, Callaway, Cobra, TaylorMade, etc, they all have it wrong. We are supposed to be suffering out on the course, not enjoying ourselves by shooting good scores. And they have the nerve to make irons that are easier to hit and score with.

[Wknd_Warrior]

you really think a set of cb clubs is going to move a 90s golfer into the 80s?

I grew up playing blades too, owning one of the nicest sets of clubs ever made IMO, the CB I hit I just don't enjoy hitting them. I don't care if my card is a stroke or two higher, which I doubt it would be anyhow (they say most amateurs will make the same score regardles of equipment etc...).

I just don't see the facination. I'm sure I'm a bit stubborn, I like the game the way it was 20 years ago before it became a slug and wedge fest, which is another point, how many 6i shots do you have to hit on today's courses anyhow? Back in my day (lol, I'm not that old) you actually had to play most of your irons in a round. The clubs used inside the white stick already have a large sweet spot and are reasonably forgiving.

#1 reason why I don't play CB, I have always loved my irons and never liked hitting any of the CB I have tried.

Maybe I just don't take my game as seriously as others, which is hard to imagine really, but I don't care if I scank a bunch of 2is. SOMe of you guys think that if you play a blade you hit everything 75 yards all day. I've played with very new golfers playing blades who did far better than that.

I should say, being forced to play blades growing up I dare say with hopes not to jynx myself, I actually hit the ball some of the time, so if it's a skill you've never had to develop, ie, your swing and game are good but you've never had a reason to get that accurate striking the irons, than maybe it'd be an unbalanced drag. If that's the case then maybe it's time to work on your iron game, blade or no.

I really want to see a study showing the strength and weakness of iron clubs in terms of accuracy, spin, stability etc... Suspiciously I have never been able to find one. The conspiracy theorist in me wonders if CB just feel bettter and don't really perform much better, it's all marketing. I know my off center hits end up the same place half the time. I have a highish swing speed though so maybe that gives me a bit more forgiveness?

I'll agree with it's about enjoyng the game. I want to shoot the lowest score too, but I'm not surrendering my love of the game to do so, and I"m not interested in catering to my worst days out there. Eventually I might break down and pick up some players clubs, which many would say I shouldn't use either lol, I can see becoming a partial convert if there is am improvment to be realized, especially with the sets that have a gradual cavity, so when you get into the 180 yard clubs there's some margin for error. It still feels like the dark side to me, I'm not drinking the coolaid yet.

[Wknd_Warrior]

We are supposed to be suffering out on the course, not enjoying ourselves by shooting good scores.

Good gracious, they aren't that hard to hit, c'mon. You guys act like you have to be god to hit more than one decent shot in a round.

[Wknd_Warrior]

http://www.oobgolf.com/content/the+w..._Epiphany.html

interesting food for thought, not that it means everyone should go out an play blades

[Wknd_Warrior]

http://www.oobgolf.com/content/the+w...des_Again.html

makes some interesting points about the industry here as well.

Enjoying the game is tops though, whatever works, we all take different paths as we improve, and hopefully we all improve

[Golfbum]

Good gracious, they aren't that hard to hit, c'mon. You guys act like you have to be god to hit more than one decent shot in a round.

I am not saying they are hard to hit. I am saying that the majority of golfers have high handicaps (Most are not man enough to admit to that fact though, or they reverse sandbag for their own ego)

Anyone over a 10 index should not be playing blades for the sake of hitting the odd pure shot.

As I said, the idea of golf is to post a low score. Interesting, I am watching the Travelers and Cantlay is near the lead. I didn't see a blade iron in his hand. But hey, what the hell, he is only rated as the #1 Amateur in the world.

As I said, I worked in a golf retail store part time for two summers and never sold a set of blades to anyone.

Same applies to guys who think they need a stiff shaft in their driver. Meanwhile their swing speed is under 95 MPH. The used driver bins are full of stiff shafted drivers, why is that?

Honest story here. I was working one evening at the store. A guy comes in, wants a new driver and asks for a steel shaft. Of course I told him no one makes drivers with steel shafts. He stated he had a very fast swing speed and would break a graphite shaft. Told me his average drive was 300 yards.

So I taped up two TM drivers, one stiff and one regular.

Out he goes on the range, I go watch the ball flight.

Not knowing which shaft was which as he didn't look. I hand him the stiff, he blocks every ball right.

I hand him the regular, he hits every ball straight down the range. Gave him the stiff, blocked right again and again.

Back to the regular, every ball down the range, about 240 yards total. (Must be the golf balls, didn't see a ball close to his 300 yard average)

I recommended the regular flex, 10.5 loft. When he looked at the shaft he said "I will break this shaft in one swing at the course"

I said, "if you break it bring it back, under warranty" Apparently he didn't break it!

Just goes to show that a lot of guys do not have any idea of what they should be playing. Or they are too macho to admit to it.

Hey I play what I play, you play with what makes you happy. At the end of the day the low scores always win.

[Wknd_Warrior]

I think ego is what the golf companies are selling with cb clubs. You can work your game so it seems like it's pretty good and you've mastered the sport, but really all you've done is damage control. It doesn't matter if you keep pressing forward, but if you convince yourself that you are hitting them long and high when you are just swinging way too hard with a poor swing. well, that's a drag.