Andre - Same Length Irons

[BC MIST]

Saw your post on the Neufinder forum about same length irons.

I have always wanted to try a set of irons where all clubs are the same length, so I am going to make a set tomorrow. I have from 4 to PW of a Dynacraft Tour Caliber Forged set that I used several years ago All irons will be the length of the 7, all the head weights will be identical, [Yes, grinding will be done(21 grams off the wedge) and lead tape will be added].

The butt frequency will be a mid "R" flex on John Kaufman's chart, shafts will be Rifles, MOI and total weight will be the same and I guess, so should the swingweights as each club, except for loft, will be identical, not that swingweight is important.

The problem is that unless we get a break in the weather, I will not be able to see what distances I get from each, until the spring. Depressing thought. Even then, because the heads are forged, I will be able to alter the lofts somewhat to get an even distribution in distance between clubs.

Imagne, one club length, one lie angle, one frequency, one total weight, one MOI, one swingweight, and most importantly, ONE SWING. What a novel idea!! Senior Tour, here I come. OVGA Senior Tour I mean.

[Chieflongtee]

Hi BC. Thanks for the reply. However if I were you I would reread Jeff Summit's article before proceding. Remember the "moment of truth" that you gave me a copy of. I believe it turned out to be very inconclusive for him. There is a sponsor on FGI that sells such clubs http://www.1irongolf.com/ and there is a thread about 15 miles long http://www.freegolfinfo.com/forums/t...length&#671031 on the topic. I like the concept though as it would be the same as playing tennis or hockey i.e all shots with the same weapon. Either way if you decide to go ahead please let me know the results.

[Chieflongtee]

After thinking about this for a little while, 2 questions popped up in my mind. How will you go about grinding/removing weight from the clubs without leaving a distinctive mark on the sole.( I know this is done all the time but i sure would like to know the proper procedure). Have you considered removing weight from the head by reaming down the hosel?

[BC MIST]

After thinking about this for a little while, 2 questions popped up in my mind. How will you go about grinding/removing weight from the clubs without leaving a distinctive mark on the sole.( I know this is done all the time but i sure would like to know the proper procedure). Have you considered removing weight from the head by reaming down the hosel?

In Jeff's article, he attempted to match the MOI of his favourite club, the 7 iron by adding weight to the lower lofted clubs which is what I intend to do. The difference in what he did and what I intend to do is that my clubs will all be the same length while his had the standard length difference of 1/2". So except for the lofts and the distribution of each head's weight,ie., the PW has its weight distributed over a larger area than the 4, all of the clubs will be identical.

Frankly, I had not thought of drilling out weight from the hosel, but instead began grinding weight off the back of the head. I would just have to make sure that the insertion depth of the shaft is the same for all heads. Perhaps I will start with a .335 drill bit, and see how much weight I can get out, before I spend "hours" grinding.

I know Tom Wishon would not be pleased with my grinding the heads that he originally designed when he was with Dynacraft, so I think I'll keep what I am doing to myself.

Thanks for the tip.

[Chieflongtee]

Frankly, I had not thought of drilling out weight from the hosel, but instead began grinding weight off the back of the head. I would just have to make sure that the insertion depth of the shaft is the same for all heads. Perhaps I will start with a .335 drill bit, and see how much weight I can get out, before I spend "hours" grinding.



Thanks for the tip.

Please check your pms
I may be wrong but I really do think that it does not matter if all hosels have the same shaft depth insertion since you are going to be frequency matching them.(same as blind bore standard bore thru bore etc..) I would practice on a very old clubhead first just to see how much weight can be removed. Do you still have the article? If so please read the first 3 paragraphs? Please keep me posted.

[BC MIST]

Please check your pms
I may be wrong but I really do think that it does not matter if all hosels have the same shaft depth insertion since you are going to be frequency matching them.(same as blind bore standard bore thru bore etc..) I would practice on a very old clubhead first just to see how much weight can be removed. Do you still have the article? If so please read the first 3 paragraphs? Please keep me posted.

In those first three paragraphs Jeff says that all the clubs went about the same distance and then later he said that the incremental difference was about 4 yards. I stand to be corrected but I read somewhere that 1" in length will mean a difference of just over 2 mph in club head speed or about 5 yards. If true then the difference from a 4 iron to a 5 iron would be about 2.5 yards not 4. Loft angle is the biggest determinant of a difference in distance between two consecutive clubs, and depending on what happens I will adjust the loft angle to see if I can get the difference that I want.

I am not looking for a secret to better ball striking, I am just trying to satisfy my own curiosity. I don't believe everything I read from the so-called experts and for $49 I will be able to come to my own conclusions. This will probably mean that I should have believed the experts, but like always experimenting with my swing I like to experiment with my clubs too. It's just part of the fun of being retired and having more time to play around. If I get a chance to play with them somewhere before freezeup, I will let you know how they perform.

[BC MIST]

Andre,

I played 12 holes this afternoon with the same length irons(SLI), hitting several balls on each hole.

My observations are these:

(1) from similar yardages I hit the same SLI as my normal clubs.

(2) the trajectory of the 4, 5 irons was a little lower than normal.

(3) the clubs felt heavy to lift because they are. Each one weighs 501.5 grams. The extra weight comes from the 93 gram grip that I use for my single axis swing. They don't swing as heavy as they feel as the SW came out at D0.

(4) each club felt the same, obviously.

Of course, if I used a lightweight graphite shaft instead of the steel Rifle, they may have felt better, as that is what I am used to. Will be interesting to see in the spring how far the clubs go when the air temperature is not 0*C.

[jvincent]

What where the final lofts that you ended up with?

[Chieflongtee]

Good question John as David lake has a 4* spread between each club.
http://www.1irongolf.com/index_files/page0005.htm
What baffles me though is the bounce angle.If you are fooling with loft you obviously have to fool with bounce. Any thoughts?

[Chieflongtee]

Also somehow this does not make sense as if you are going to play one length why would you have to play the irons at one length and the woods at another?
In Tennis you only have one racquet. With the same racquet you can hit first serves, second serves, drop shots , lob shots, approach shots, passing shots, volleys, dink shots, with the same length racquet. So why should it be different if you are going to make a golf club the same length?

[Chieflongtee]

[QUOTE=BC MIST]Andre,




(2) the trajectory of the 4, 5 irons was a little lower than normal.

(3) the clubs felt heavy to lift because they are. Each one weighs 501.5 grams. The extra weight comes from the 93 gram grip that I use for my single axis swing. They don't swing as heavy as they feel as the SW came out at D0.

(4) each club felt the same, obviously.

Did you fool with the lie of the club or did you leave the lie untouched?

[jvincent]

The 4* separation sort of puzzles me. 4* is pretty much the spacing for most sets from 5i down already.

I would have thought that in a single length set you'd want to increase the spacing the longer than standard clubs and decrease it in the shorter than standard.

The only thing I can think of is that in the irons there is more of a contribution to total distance from the weight of the clubs versus drivers where speed matterss more.

BC, if you have the equipment it would be interesting to compare the clubhead speed and ball of your "standard" 4i/9i versus your single length 4i/9i.

We could then do come mv and 1/2mv^2 math and see which is more strongly correlated to ball speed.

[BC MIST]

I have a cheap loft and lie machine that I bought from Golfsmith many moons ago so its readings of actual loft may not be accurate, however, the difference in loft between the clubs should be quite close. I simply ensured that as a starting point, that there was a 4* difference. I checked the lie of the 7 iron and bent all the rest to its lie angle. Not doing this would render any conclusions invalid as I needed only one variable in the set, the loft. I obviously made the less lofted clubs more upright and the more lofted clubs flatter.

I have a Beltroniics Swingmate, so I can calculate the club head speed of all clubs each set, and I also know the weight of the heads, if that is significant. Perhaps this aftrenoon, I can do some testing in my backyard driving range and post the numbers.

I agree that by shutting down the lofts, for example, I am changing the bounce angle. But, so what? Remember the heads are forged and had minimal bounce angle to begin with. I hit down on the ball contacting it first before taking a divot, so the bounce angle should be irrelevant in the flight of the ball.

Irons are for accuracy, woods are for distance, generally speaking. If I wanted to hit an iron farther, I would lengthen the shaft and lighten the head, significantly. But I don't as I would decrease the accuracy. If I wanted to be more accurate with the woods I would shorten the shaft and make the head heavier. But, I don't, as this would decrease the distance. In my theoretical perfect set, all irons would be the same length, and all woods would be the same length, but the woods length would not be the same as the irons.

I don't fully understand the point of comparing tennis to golf. In tennis one racquet can hit the ball to all parts of the court in any manner the player wants. This cannot be done in golf as there are 18 different "courts." I won't use my driver to blast out of a greenside bunker, nor will I use my wedge to drive on a 600 yard par 5, therefore the clubs have to have at least one variable.

Yesterday's test was inconclusive because of the varying degrees of firmness of the greens. Some were frozen, some were soft. Some holes were downwind, some were into it. But, hitting shots of comparable length to my regular set was still a reasonable observation. Several further tests in balmy weather and on a range are required before I put this idea to rest. I may have to alter the lofts of the heads. The clubs are way too heavy(501.1 g) so using a lightweight graphite shaft is a must for me. Because I use a single axis swing, my grips are HUGE, non-tapered and 12" long. I wrap from 9 to 28 layers of 2" wide tape around the shaft, so this obviously increases the overall weight a lot.

There is a logic to the single length concept that I will persue until the SL clubs proves themselves inferior to the clubs that I am playing now. But consider this: The clubs I am playing now are MOI matched, single frequency matched, matched by total weight, and so on, and they are far better than any SW matched set that I have used. 99% of all golfers play with swingweight matched clubs and it's already been proven that MOI clubs will play better for a good chunk of the golfing population. Now, just because it is logical, does not mean that it is right.

[BC MIST]

Did some swing speed testing of the SLI clubs and my regular Wishon, graphite shafted set. Hit five balls with each of the 14 clubs and recorded the swing speeds. Some results were predictable, some were baffling and don't know what to make of them.

The numbers in order from left to right represent- (1) club number, (2) SLI swing speed, (3) Wishon swing speed, (4) difference the Wishons are longer than the SLI.

4 iron 81.6 85.0 2.25
5 iron 81.6 83.2 1.75
6 iron 81.2 82.2 1.25
7 iron 79.4 80.8 .75
8 iron 78.2 79.8 .25
9 iron 78.2 78.6 .25
PW 76.6 77.6 -.25

The average increase in swing speed per inch of length for the normal set was just under 3 mph.

So why would the single length irons show a gradual decrease in swing speed from the 4 to PW, when the lengths are obviously identical, and so are the shaft frequencies and head weights? Is it because the CG of the 4 is closer to the ground than the PW? Less wind resistance?

Each club in the SLI set weighed the same as did each club in the Wishon set. The weight diference was only 17 g.

Any thoughts anyone?

[jvincent]

Perhaps you are unconsciously swinging differently with the short irons?

Was the SLI 7i matched exactly to the Wishon 7i?

If so the only variable is the shafts and as such the weight distribution of the clubs is different.

[BC MIST]

Perhaps you are unconsciously swinging differently with the short irons?
Was the SLI 7i matched exactly to the Wishon 7i?
If so the only variable is the shafts and as such the weight distribution of the clubs is different.

One of the keys to swinging MOI matched clubs is to pretend the 4 iron is the 9 iron, ie., use the same tempo. That I worked on all summer. After my test, and when I saw the lower SS come up with the more lofted irons, I tried a few balls swinging appreciably harder and while the SS went up a little, it was still lower than the lower lofted clubs.

There was no way that I could match the SLI 7 to the Wishon, without making the club 550 g. The length is different, head weight a little different, weight added under the wrist axis. None of this really mattered to me as my purpose was not to compare the Wishons to the SLI. Rather, I just figured that clubs of the same specs, except for loft, should yeild the same SS, theoretically. Didn't happen. Still perplexed.

With the balmy weather that is coming this week, I will play with the SL irons on Tuesday and hit shots using both sets from the same points and see how distances compare.

[DavidLake]

BC Mist,


JVincent is correct. Any swing speed fluctuations between clubs within a set of single length irons is due soley to ingrained swings associated with particular numbered clubs of standard length sets. A good way to correct this is to have a friend hand you clubs at the range to hit without telling you which club it is.

[Chieflongtee]

BC.
Got the following from Golfsmith Technical magazine Vol 13 #7 September/October issue 2004 page 22. I may be wrong but I believe your answer lies in weight distribution (4th paragraph page 22) Quote:
2 hammers both weigh 2 pounds, but one has a 1 1/2 pound head and a 1/2 pound handle and the other features a 1 pound head and a 1 pound handle. Even though both hammers are the same in static weight , the one with the heavier head drives nails into a board with more kinetic energy.Quote.

Any thoughts?

[jvincent]

Hmm. All this single length talk is starting to look like a winter project. Let's see if we have the basic requirements.

1. Spare set of iron heads in the workshop? Yes.
2. Spare set of shafts in the workshop? Yes.
3. Plenty of epoxy to go around? Yes.
4. Loft and lie machine? No.

Oh well, 3 out of 4 ain't bad.

BC, have you considered a set where you are SL from 3i to 7/8i and then stepped below there?

[Chieflongtee]

Bc. Have you come to a conclusion? Favorable or not?

[LobWedge]

Tommy Armour produced a set of irons back in the 80's called EQL with all the shaft lengths based on a 5-iron length. If you can find specs on these somewhere it may be helpful.

[Chieflongtee]

http://dynacraftgolf.com/techtips/techtip.cfm?tipid=199

I for one love to tinker with golf clubs to find out what works and what doesn't. Of late, several customers who share that passion are calling or e-mailing me about making all the irons in the set the same length. This is nothing new, as Tommy Armour's EQL line was one of many attempts to make the game a little easier. The premise is that if all the irons in the set were of the same length, it would require only one swing.


Club heads manufactured today are not designed for this concept, as the club weight and lie are progressive to adjust for the variable length that they are assembled to. If one was to build all the irons the same, then the lies should also be the same. The majority of irons are bendable up to 2 degrees in either direction. However, the difference in lie angle between the 3-iron and wedges are usually slightly greater than this. Dynacraft offers the PC3 line in various lie angles, which allows one to obtain the same lie angle throughout.

Let's say one wanted all the irons to be the same length as a typical 7-iron (middle iron in a 3-SW set). The standard lie PC3 7-iron has a lie angle of 63 degrees. In order to obtain the same lie angle for the rest of the set and minimize bending as much as possible, it will require mixing and matching the PC3 upright and standard models. The following table will provide the recipe.

Model Stock Procedure Final
Lie Lie
PC3 3º upright 3-iron 62 Bend 1º upright 63
PC3 3º upright 4-iron 63 No adjustment 63
PC3 3º upright 5-iron 64 Bend 1º flat 63
PC3 standard 6-iron 62 Bend 1º upright 63
PC3 standard 7-iron 63 No adjustment 63
PC3 standard 8-iron 63 No adjustment 63
PC3 standard 9-iron 64 Bend 1º flat 63
PC3 standard PW 64 Bend 1º flat 63
PC3 standard GW 64 Bend 1º flat 63
PC3 standard SW 64 Bend 1º flat 63

Now that we have addressed the lie angle issue, there are a couple of other issues to talk about. The first is shaft trimming. One would assume since all the clubs are the same lengths as a 7-iron, then all the shafts should be tip trimmed like a 7-iron. This assumption would only be correct if all the irons weighed the same, which they do not. If one where to tip trim all the shafts the same, then the lightest iron (3-iron), would be the stiffest, while the wedges would be the most flexible. This is just the opposite of what you would see in a typical set. The best advise I could give is if using steel shafts (cheaper for this experiment anyway), tip trim the shafts as normal. In some cases you may need to extend the shorter clubs. This is perfectly acceptable if the extension is 2" or less.

This is a set you can throw out swingweight. As a matter of fact, you might conveniently forget about the concept with this set of clubs altogether. Remember that normal clubs were produced to progressive weight to adjust for progressive lengths. In my opinion, I wouldn't add weight to the 3-6 irons nor backweight the 8-wedges to create the same swingweight. That option is always left open to you.

Finally, all your clubs are made to the same length and lie angle. What can you expect? While it might make it easier to repeat a swing if all the clubs where the same length, you might be surprised by the distances. Even though the 3 or 4 irons are noticeable shorter, which should allow one to make more solid contact, it will result in potentially shorter distances. Since the shorter irons are made longer than normal, you may find that these clubs go further than you are used to. In essence, you may find that instead of getting 9-10 yards per club difference, the distances are more bunched up. Your results may vary. This is the reason why clubs are not only made with different lofts, but different lengths as well.

If your experiment does not work the way you thought it should, it is not a total disaster. The clubs can be re-bent to form a normal progression, even though the 3-6 irons may end up 1 degree more upright than standard due to limitations on bending. You had already tip trimmed the shafts as normal, so you would have to sacrifice the grips, butt trim the 8-wedges and put extenders in the 3-6 irons. However, if you ever wondered why clubs are not produced this way or what happened if they were this hopefully would provide you with some of those answers.



Sincerely,


Jeff Summitt
Vice President of Technical Services
Dynacraft Golf Products, Inc.
107 Pine Street
Newark, Ohio 43058
email: support@dynacraftgolf.com
US Toll-free: 800-321-4833
(c) Copyright 2003 Dynacraft Golf Products, Inc.

[Chieflongtee]

http://www.twgolftech.com/moi/

Much later, in the late 1990s, the Tommy Armour Golf Company introduced their EQL clubs to the market. By making all of the woods the same length and same total weight as the 5-wood, and all of the irons the same length/total weight as the 6-iron, the company did achieve an MOI match between the clubs. This concept failed again because the one MOI measurement to which all the EQL woods and irons were build did not fit all golfers, but also because the concept of all woods and all irons being the same length was much too radical for golfers to accept.

[jvincent]

I'm still thinking this is a good winter project, although I'm probably not going to go full SLI.

I took my 3-iron out of the bag this summer and have subsequently bent my 4-iron strong, halfway between 3i and 4i loft. I'm finding that with the strong 4i I can hit it hard and get 3i distance and lay off it and get 4i distance. Also, I find I am more consistent with the strong 4i than the old 3i, even with the harder swing.

My logical extension to this is that if I do the same thing for my other irons, I will probably get more consistent with them.

So, my current plan is to use 7i as my starting point and make 4/5/6i all the same length and SW. I now have access to a bending machine so I can match the lies easily (forged clubs) and adjust the lofts as required.

7i down will have the normal progression. This way I won't have to go crazy adding weight, or have extra long short irons.