Bunker full of water, only relief closer to the hole?

[Rusty]

I was playing the other day in the rain. I hit into a par 3 greenside sand trap.
When I got there the ball was in casual water. The entire rear portion of the bunker was full of water, the only way to play the ball and stay in the bunker was to move the ball closer to the hole, about 5 feet closer. I hit a great shot to within a foot to the pin 20 feet away!
Was that a legit par?

[BC MIST]

I was playing the other day in the rain. I hit into a par 3 greenside sand trap.
When I got there the ball was in casual water. The entire rear portion of the bunker was full of water, the only way to play the ball and stay in the bunker was to move the ball closer to the hole, about 5 feet closer. I hit a great shot to within a foot to the pin 20 feet away!Was that a legit par?

Unfortunately not. It was actually a double bogey as you played from a wrong place for which the penalty is two strokes.

In this situation you are allowed to drop the ball in the bunker at the point where the water is the shallowest, (maximum relief available) as long as it's not nearer the hole. If this is not possible, you may take relief OUTSIDE the bunker, keeping the point where the ball originally lay between you and the hole and you may go back along that line to get your drop. BUT, the penalty is one stroke for doing this.

[Weazl]

really? So your only option is to play from in the water if you do not want to take a penalty stroke? WOW!

[quinner]

I think you can chalk this rule up to another one of the rules that needs to be looked at...how is it practical to be dinged with a penalty for course conditions such as this. IMO if you are still in the bunker (and in a hazard) you should be able to drop being closer to the hole as long as you are still in the hazard.

[Ruskie]

Oh, I don't know about that Quinner, some bunkers are very long and you might end up dropping 100 yards closer to the hole (#18 at Eagle Creek comes to mind). Not likely, but possible. I'd prefer to see it changed to allow free relief outside the bunker if it's not possible to drop inside not closer to the hole, but in all honesty it doesn't happen all that often.

A bigger problem is that when you take relief in a wet bunker you have to drop the ball and it often plugs. It's almost better to take the stroke and drop outside.

[Rusty]

Darn! I should practice hitting the ball in 2 inches of water, it can't be that hard, although the sand had the consitancy of mud, so that could be a challange.
Wait I would be covered from head to toe in cr*p! Well the better solution is not to play when its been raining that hard.

[AAA]

Even better, keep clear of bunkers, they can be hazardous.

[BC MIST]

Oh, I don't know about that Quinner, some bunkers are very long and you might end up dropping 100 yards closer to the hole (#18 at Eagle Creek comes to mind). Not likely, but possible. I'd prefer to see it changed to allow free relief outside the bunker if it's not possible to drop inside not closer to the hole, but in all honesty it doesn't happen all that often.

A bigger problem is that when you take relief in a wet bunker you have to drop the ball and it often plugs. It's almost better to take the stroke and drop outside.

For most of us going into a bunker will cost close to a stroke on the average and thus, free relief outside the bunker negates the penalty for hitting in it in the first place. While our percentage chance of getting up and down from within or outside a bunker varies with the individual, it's obviously a lot higher from without, hence the penalty for taking it out, which makes the penalty stroke reasonable.

[Ruskie]

For most of us going into a bunker will cost close to a stroke on the average and thus, free relief outside the bunker negates the penalty for hitting in it in the first place. While our percentage chance of getting up and down from within or outside a bunker varies with the individual, it's obviously a lot higher from without, hence the penalty for taking it out, which makes the penalty stroke reasonable.

That's a good point, although I'd be curious to see the difference between up-and-down from sand vs. from the rough over a bunker, I'd be surprised if it's more than 1/4 of a stroke. The problem is that when you drop in wet sand and the ball plugs (very likely), that's probably closer to a 2-stroke penalty for most of us, since it's a crap shoot to get it out of there.

All that said, I don't really have a problem with that rule. Bunker is a hazard, so it's logical that you don't get any guarantees in there.

[LobWedge]

That's a good point, although I'd be curious to see the difference between up-and-down from sand vs. from the rough over a bunker, I'd be surprised if it's more than 1/4 of a stroke. The problem is that when you drop in wet sand and the ball plugs (very likely), that's probably closer to a 2-stroke penalty for most of us, since it's a crap shoot to get it out of there.

All that said, I don't really have a problem with that rule. Bunker is a hazard, so it's logical that you don't get any guarantees in there.

Replace the word "rough" with the phrase "through the green" and the difference should become even more apparent. Modern course designers choosing to locate bunkers outside of the more closely mown areas is irrelevant. There are many courses that have bunkers located in the "short grass" too. That's where the real disparity is seen.

[Ruskie]

Well, if you want to talk about architectural issues, bunkers not surrounded by rough usually have slopes that push balls into collection areas. Chipping from such an area is no picnic either, especially if you have to go over a bunker. I would argue that chipping from the rough would actually be easier.

[LobWedge]

That's the problem with modern bunkers, they don't punish golfers enough. They should be designed to eat any ball that gets within 3 feet of them. And to heck with fancy rakes. Jack Nicklaus was on the right track when he changed the rakes at Muirfield Village years ago. If you get in to a bunker, you should either have to do something pretty special to get the ball where you want it, or you should have to take your lumps and play out sideways, or even backwards.

[Ruskie]

No argument there, but you can't have bunkers like that surrounding every hole on all sides. It always a tradeoff...

[Rusty]

Funny, on the Open coverage Thursday they talked about this type of penalty. One of the bunkers has a conrete step in it at the very back to allow access to the bunker because it is fairly deep.
They showed a ball that landed just in front of the step. You couldnt get a club on the ball due to the step, and they said that since you could not get relief and stay in the bunker the only option was to take a penalty stroke and play it back on the grass behind it. The commendators both agreed it was not a fair result, but thats the way golf is.
Thanks for all of the responses, I am one step closer to understanding the rules of golf!

[sharkshooter]

I didn't see it, but if it is that close to the step, you could hit it towards the step and have it bounce back (i.e towards the front of the bunker). Might not be a great option, but a non-penalty option.

[goochy]

Even better, keep clear of bunkers, they can be hazardous.

Have you played links golf? lol

[AAA]

Look at my 'location' and count the links courses.

http://www.englandsgolfcoast.com/

[goochy]

oh you lucky bugger

..next time I'm home maybe you can take me for a round at Hoylake

never noticed you were up in Scouse land

[AAA]

Wallasey is better

[Sunny D]

That's the problem with modern bunkers, they don't punish golfers enough. They should be designed to eat any ball that gets within 3 feet of them. And to heck with fancy rakes. Jack Nicklaus was on the right track when he changed the rakes at Muirfield Village years ago. If you get in to a bunker, you should either have to do something pretty special to get the ball where you want it, or you should have to take your lumps and play out sideways, or even backwards.

I've played a few Pete Dye course and I find that his bunker designs tend to punish players for hitting into the hazard. He also has no issues with strategically placing his hazards so it is possible when making a bad course management decision from go from one bunker to an even worse bunker. (TPC Louisianna comes to mind) More than once playing a Pete Dye course I have gone out of a bunker backwards or sideways. Forward may have been possible but the risk reward was just not there. Have to agree though that many modern course do not penalize enough... IMO.

[Rusty]

Darn! I should practice hitting the ball in 2 inches of water, it can't be that hard, although the sand had the consitancy of mud, so that could be a challange.
Wait I would be covered from head to toe in cr*p! Well the better solution is not to play when its been raining that hard.

After seeing Bill Haas hit that shot to win the Fedex cup, how hard can it be, hitting in a water filled bunker? Next time its raining I am going into the first bunker I find that has standing water! After I have put on my rainsuit.

[mpare]

Make sure that part of the ball is above the water line. If it isn't, then you're not likely to get it out.

After seeing Bill Haas hit that shot to win the Fedex cup, how hard can it be, hitting in a water filled bunker? Next time its raining I am going into the first bunker I find that has standing water! After I have put on my rainsuit.