GSA Golf Update

[ZMax]

Just one sand penalty for both fairway and green side bunker. I tweaked my SW in GSAcontrol to add the remaining penalty for when I'm in a green side bunker. It's not a perfect situation but at least there are penalty for fairway bunkers now.

As for the rough, I haven't played with it enough to know for sure but I think it only applies to the "rough" lies. Not sure how the heavy rough is handled yet.

When I asked for terrain penalties, I did specify fairway and green side bunkers. Since the Red Chain software that we're using is a generic simulation program(unlike Protee 2.0), perhaps they were limited with what they can change. I don't know.

Aside from a couple of issues with this update, I'm pretty happy with it. Especially knowing that Red Chain is working on their next generation engine.

[js1010]

thanks, Zmax.

hopefully I get this update this week.

[ZMax]

I was wrong. The changes do not stay. When you restart GSA, everything goes back to default. Minor oversight by Red Chain.

I just emailed that to Dean.

Any news from Dean on this issue?

Thanks

[rdh]

Nothing yet. I emailed this week to ask if he knows when they'll release an update, but I haven't heard back yet.

[rdh]

I posted too soon! Dean emailed overnight and he said it will be 2-3 weeks before they can get this out.

On another note, I had asked him about Torrey Pines golf course as I read it was in beta testing for World Golf Challenge. I was really looking forward to Torrey Pines...but Dean said that course is exclusive to Foresight Sports. Noooooooooo!

[ZMax]

I posted too soon! Dean emailed overnight and he said it will be 2-3 weeks before they can get this out.

On another note, I had asked him about Torrey Pines golf course as I read it was in beta testing for World Golf Challenge. I was really looking forward to Torrey Pines...but Dean said that course is exclusive to Foresight Sports. Noooooooooo!

Thanks rdh. That sucks about Torrey Pines. I don't understand why it's exclusive to Foresight Sports. Did they commission to have the course created? Come to think of it, it's been a while since GSA got any new courses.

[rdh]

Yes...they paid to have it created. I'm not liking that trend...if the different companies start commissioning/locking down specific courses (Sawgrass, etc.) then the only way you'd ever get to play them is if you have that specific hardware. Hopefully it's a one-off.

Dean will be releasing the latest courses along with the next update in a few weeks. Here's one that will hopefully be included that looks great!

http://www.24-hrnetwork.com/forums/t...-wolf-preview/

[ZMax]

That course looks great. I hope it's included. And I would love to have Sawgrass.

[b3team]

Ya, that course looks really good.

[mmlincon]

I don't think we will be seeing any of the TPC courses. I believe they have an exclusive rights deal with AboutGolf which is a shame.

[ZMax]

I don't think we will be seeing any of the TPC courses. I believe they have an exclusive rights deal with AboutGolf which is a shame.

That sucks.

It's all about the mighty dollar, or should I say the weakening dollar. The folks at Augusta threatens Red Chain and pretty much all other golf simulation companies and then signs an exclusive deal with EA Sports? Or maybe they must have wanted way too much for the license to Augusta National.

I haven't played on an About Golf simulator yet, but once I do, I will probably be on here to tell everybody how inaccurate and way overpriced it is.

I don't blame anybody for sharing the "Georgia" course to folks that didn't have the opportunity to buy it.

[rdh]

The exclusive rights deals don't really apply to GSA. They've released a number of courses under fictional names since they didn't have the licensing rights (Augusta, the pebble beach courses, firestone, etc.). So, unless the course comes after them threatening legal action (like Augusta did), they'll release whatever courses their designers feel like developing. I'm still hoping for sawgrass at some point.

The difference here is that one specific partner of Red Chain (Foresight Sports) paid to have Torrey Pines created for them exclusively. That's a different scenario, as now Red Chain won't release it to GSA and even if Martin asked to have Torrey Pines developed, Red Chain wouldn't be able to do it since they made the deal with Foresight.

[bubba22]

The exclusive rights deals don't really apply to GSA. They've released a number of courses under fictional names since they didn't have the licensing rights (Augusta, the pebble beach courses, firestone, etc.). So, unless the course comes after them threatening legal action (like Augusta did), they'll release whatever courses their designers feel like developing. I'm still hoping for sawgrass at some point.

The difference here is that one specific partner of Red Chain (Foresight Sports) paid to have Torrey Pines created for them exclusively. That's a different scenario, as now Red Chain won't release it to GSA and even if Martin asked to have Torrey Pines developed, Red Chain wouldn't be able to do it since they made the deal with Foresight.

So let me get this straight rdh, you are saying that Foresight paid off Red Chain to have the exclusive rights for Torrey Pines? Is that what I am hearing?

[rdh]

Basically. They didn't technically "pay off" red chain for rights...they paid Red Chain a fee to design Torrey Pines for their software, and since they paid Red Chain to do it on a contract basis, they own it and it can't be given out to the other partners (GGS, etc.). I expect that if Martin now went to Red Chain and offered to pay to have Torrey Pines created (yes, a bit silly since it technically exists) that they would say they can't because it was done and licensed to Foresight. Frustrating (I've always wanted Torrey Pines!) but I just hope it isn't the start of a bigger trend where Foresight starts to contract a bunch of famous courses to be designed exclusively for them (since they have the funds to do it I expect).

[bubba22]

Basically. They didn't technically "pay off" red chain for rights...they paid Red Chain a fee to design Torrey Pines for their software, and since they paid Red Chain to do it on a contract basis, they own it and it can't be given out to the other partners (GGS, etc.). I expect that if Martin now went to Red Chain and offered to pay to have Torrey Pines created (yes, a bit silly since it technically exists) that they would say they can't because it was done and licensed to Foresight. Frustrating (I've always wanted Torrey Pines!) but I just hope it isn't the start of a bigger trend where Foresight starts to contract a bunch of famous courses to be designed exclusively for them (since they have the funds to do it I expect).

I would love to get the details of this interaction and whether or not one can still have another "Torey Pines" course made. RDH is it possible to email Dean and ask if and individual could have Torrey Pines developed and at what cost?

[rdh]

I was given the impression previously that course designs are in the $3K to $5K range. I had asked in general terms about what it would take to have a local course developed that I play, and that is the range that was discussed. That was a while back and I'm sure it depends on details (what satellite data is available, etc.). Those services are targeted at golf courses that want to pay to have virtual versions of their courses created...obviously at that price it's not targeted at home users.

I am curious too on how "locked down" a course is once a company like Foresight does this. I'll email Dean to throw out the hypothetical question of "what if" GSA or some group of users wanted to pay to have Torrey Pines developed. Will let you know.

[bubba22]

I was given the impression previously that course designs are in the $3K to $5K range. I had asked in general terms about what it would take to have a local course developed that I play, and that is the range that was discussed. That was a while back and I'm sure it depends on details (what satellite data is available, etc.). Those services are targeted at golf courses that want to pay to have virtual versions of their courses created...obviously at that price it's not targeted at home users.

I am curious too on how "locked down" a course is once a company like Foresight does this. I'll email Dean to throw out the hypothetical question of "what if" GSA or some group of users wanted to pay to have Torrey Pines developed. Will let you know.

Thanks rdh. It would be interesting to know if that is the case. Let us know if you get a response.

[ZMax]

The deal with Red Chain and Foresights seems odd to me. I can see if this was a local unknown course, but for a course like Torrey Pines? I'm glad it wasn't Pebble Beach. Why would Red Chain even do this for $3-5k?

[syhlif32]

What this industry needs are a simulator with a course designer software where the courses designed are in public domain!

Also thought you could develop a course in Custom Play Golf and have it converted for ~$800.

[rdh]

Yes, you can design your own course and have them convert it for that price. That is only if you do all the design work yourself though. In this case they were contracted to create Torrey Pines.

I emailed Dean to present the scenario of "what if" GSA or some other group now wanted to contract them to create Torrey Pines...and ask if they could do it. Dean said his honest answer is that he doesn't know, but he'd be hesitant to tread on the agreement with Foresight. So, I don't think this has been 100% thought out or formalized. Anyway, as it stands right now I don't think the non-Foresight users will ever see Torrey Pines on this software. That's crappy, but not a huge deal (it's just one course). It will be more concerning if it starts a trend and the list of unavailable courses starts to grow.

[syhlif32]

If somebody make a golf course any golf course in Custom Play Golf and then tells Red Chain or GSA? Here is $800 please include it in the course library.
Is that how it goes or will that course only be for you?

Not that I have the skills to do it but I am amassed by some of the golf courses made for TW 08 the details and time put into those courses!

[ZMax]

Good question syhlif32 and I'll go a little further.

rdh, what if somebody like Sodaboy creates Torrey Pines himself calling it TorreySoda or whatever and asks Red Chain to convert it to GSA? Assuming of course that Martin is OK with this. While the courses will look similar, they will not be the exact same course. I don't think Red Chain would have any legal obligation towards Foresights with the TorreySoda course.

[rdh]

I'd guess that you're correct ZMax...this is one big grey area! The part I don't know is if Sodaboy paid the fee to have it converted to GSA format, whether it is only licensed for his own use or whether it can be distributed. If it can be distributed then this might be an area talented designers want to give some thought to....design a great course and pay to have it converted, then sell it directly to users of GSA Golf. I don't know what the legal/licensing issues are there, but I'd pay $50-$100 for a great rendition of a course like Sawgrass. With an $800 conversion cost, the designer wouldn't have to sell too many copies to recoup the cost and start making money.

[bubba22]

I'd guess that you're correct ZMax...this is one big grey area! The part I don't know is if Sodaboy paid the fee to have it converted to GSA format, whether it is only licensed for his own use or whether it can be distributed. If it can be distributed then this might be an area talented designers want to give some thought to....design a great course and pay to have it converted, then sell it directly to users of GSA Golf. I don't know what the legal/licensing issues are there, but I'd pay $50-$100 for a great rendition of a course like Sawgrass. With an $800 conversion cost, the designer wouldn't have to sell too many copies to recoup the cost and start making money.

All very interesting!!

[mmlincon]

This doesn't make any sense. First off, does Foresight have a license agreement with Torrey Pines to use their course name? That maybe a copy right infringement right there, but the only ones who could do anything about it is Torrey Pines or the owners really. Non of the courses have the right to prevent anyone from creating a replica of their course and that includes Augusta. The satellite images and topology graphs are public info and can be used to build a course. What you may get in trouble for is using their name. Now Foresight contracted with Red Chain to build a course and license it exclusively with their product. This is fine, but there should be a time limit on this restriction. If Red Chain doesn't they are doing their product a disservice as it will begin to dilute it's value as more and more simulator vendors start paying to have exclusive courses created. Argh, the greed in this country is getting sickening and the only people that suffer are the end users.

The $800 conversion cost is to convert the course to be used with simulators. You can create any course you want and use it with Custom Play, even if you made a replica of Torrey Pines. I don't see why Martin or Red Chain should care what is being converted, it's money in their pocket.

[bubba22]

This doesn't make any sense. First off, does Foresight have a license agreement with Torrey Pines to use their course name? That maybe a copy right infringement right there, but the only ones who could do anything about it is Torrey Pines or the owners really. Non of the courses have the right to prevent anyone from creating a replica of their course and that includes Augusta. The satellite images and topology graphs are public info and can be used to build a course. What you may get in trouble for is using their name. Now Foresight contracted with Red Chain to build a course and license it exclusively with their product. This is fine, but there should be a time limit on this restriction. If Red Chain doesn't they are doing their product a disservice as it will begin to dilute it's value as more and more simulator vendors start paying to have exclusive courses created. Argh, the greed in this country is getting sickening and the only people that suffer are the end users.

The $800 conversion cost is to convert the course to be used with simulators. You can create any course you want and use it with Custom Play, even if you made a replica of Torrey Pines. I don't see why Martin or Red Chain should care what is being converted, it's money in their pocket.

All good points. Question is will Torrey Pines become available for other users than Foresight golf? Is Torrey pines available for the GC2 users?

[ZMax]

I've asked Sodaboy to give some input on this subject but I don't remember him saying he had to pay a conversion fee. I believe Sodayboy created the course for CPG. I think Red Chain just took it upon themselves to convert it and distributed to various simulator companies.

[syhlif32]

mmlincon I am sure you are right! All Forsight bought was one version of Torrey Pines. Since it is not only a (2) public course but a whole area that is named Torrey Pines I do not think that the name could be protected and I am sure San Diego wants the name out there as much as they can.

PGA Tour should only be played on courses with public access! But that is a different discussion.

The issue we have a discussion about is if you make a course for Custom Play and pay to have it converted who does it belong to?
It is yours to sell or give away? Or do you only get the rights to use it with your usb key?

[mmlincon]

I would think, but do not know, that it would be the right of the developer/creator of the course whether it can be distributed for free or for a fee. I don't think the courses are tied to the usb key individually, but I suppose they could be.

You gotta love these vendors ( Foresight/AboutGolf ). Hey thanks for the 65 "free" courses Red Chain, but if you want to play these few we've paid to have created you have to buy our product. Really? Your product is that good that you have to entice me with courses you should've added to the public library. Cause I know the markup on your products isn't enough already.

[rdh]

Good discussion around this one!

I don't know all the details, but I think Red Chain is being more careful as well. There was that whole thread by sodaboy where he created a course for CustomPlay golf and then found out that Red Chain had converted it and given it to Martin without his permission. I had compiled a list of courses I've seen posted or mentioned on the 24 HR Gaming website over the past several months, and I sent that to Dean asking if they'd be converting them for GSA. He pointed out that Torrey Pines was exclusive (hence this discussion) but he also mentioned that a couple other courses on my list couldn't be released because they don't work with the designers directly so they don't have the rights to use them. So, it looks like they're making sure they have the rights from the designers before just converting and sending out courses now.