reduced handicap from sim play

[syhlif32]

You are probably right rdh!
But I also think that you can say that golf simulators are bad for your handicap!

Even me as a high handicap player would be much better off if I took the time I use on the simulator to practice my short game!
It is not likely I would do that because I enjoy playing on the simulator while chipping, pitching and putting gets boring faster.

We are trying to justify the simulator cost and time spend because we enjoy playing on the simulators!
I enjoy my simulator and I also enjoy talking simulators here on the forum.

Hope my wife doesn't see this! Could spoil my upgrade plans!

[bubba22]

I think a good understanding of the golf swing will also help you get the most out of your simulator.

Good point Z.

[ZMax]

But I also think that you can say that golf simulators are bad for your handicap!

I wouldn't say that. But with simulators that don't measure the ball, you don't really know for sure that you're doing good. i.e. a nice draw on the DD might actually be a bad push to the right.

Good point Z.

thanks bubba22.

[syhlif32]

But I also think that you can say that golf simulators are bad for your handicap

It was meant as a 'tongue in check' But we all should be practicing the short game more and if I read this forum correct then the short game is the Achilles heel of all the simulators?
Maybe the problem is it is real hard to see the distance. If you are also playing the short game by numbers it might work. But most play by feel which is lost on the simulators?

[ZMax]

It was meant as a 'tongue in check' But we all should be practicing the short game more and if I read this forum correct then the short game is the Achilles heel of all the simulators?
Maybe the problem is it is real hard to see the distance. If you are also playing the short game by numbers it might work. But most play by feel which is lost on the simulators?

yup, you're right. The short game is tough to simulate. Especiallu for me since I need to feel the grass and the distance.

[bubba22]

yup, you're right. The short game is tough to simulate. Especiallu for me since I need to feel the grass and the distance.

I completely agree. For me I didn't get th im for short game practice. I tend to use th im for ball striking of both irons and driver. I tend to practice the short game more at the real course and limit the ball striking at the real range.

[psace]

[QUOTE=ZMax;398812]I wouldn't say that. But with simulators that don't measure the ball, you don't really know for sure that you're doing good. i.e. a nice draw on the DD might actually be a bad push to the right

Are you joking zmax? I know my game better than anyone and I know when I push a shot and when a draw the ball. I find the DD depicts my shots very accurately as far as left and right shots go.

[rdh]

Yeah...I think Zmax may have just overstated that. The ball measurement (assuming we're NOT talking about spin measurement, since none of us seem to have that aspect) adds a few things:

- horizontal (left/right) direction at the start
- launch angle
- ball speed

Launch angle isn't relevant as far as depicting draws/fades (it's not a side spin factor). So, as important as it is, we can ignore that. Ball speed obviously affects the accuracy of the distance, but again that's not what was pointed out here. So, it's really the ball direction that may be off with the DD. So...in the draw/push scenario above, you could have a draw on the DD (start slightly right and curve back to center) that may have come up on other devices as starting MORE right and still drawing back (since all these devices estimate side spin in the same manner) so maybe it ends up in the right rough or right side of the fairway. So, I don't think this is a case of the DD showing a draw where other devices would NOT have shown a draw..but more just that the initial direction may have been off so your shot result may have been inaccurate.

[bubba22]

[QUOTE=psace;398824]

I wouldn't say that. But with simulators that don't measure the ball, you don't really know for sure that you're doing good. i.e. a nice draw on the DD might actually be a bad push to the right

Are you joking zmax? I know my game better than anyone and I know when I push a shot and when a draw the ball. I find the DD depicts my shots very accurately as far as left and right shots go.

Are you saying that the dd will depict the draws and fades perfect and accurate? Then what you are saying is that there is no need to measure the ball. Lets be real here. The dd has limited accuracy for sure and measuring the ball is needed for true, accurate simulation.

[ZMax]

Are you joking zmax? I know my game better than anyone and I know when I push a shot and when a draw the ball. I find the DD depicts my shots very accurately as far as left and right shots go.

I didn't mean to pick on the DD. I meant to say all simulators that didn't measure the ball. But since I had the DD for a while, I will say that the ball flight was not accurate. I'm sure I'm not the only one with this opinion. I think the DD for $400 is a great value.

Btw, have you been out on the real course yet?

[ZMax]

Yeah...I think Zmax may have just overstated that. The ball measurement (assuming we're NOT talking about spin measurement, since none of us seem to have that aspect) adds a few things:

- horizontal (left/right) direction at the start
- launch angle
- ball speed

Launch angle isn't relevant as far as depicting draws/fades (it's not a side spin factor). So, as important as it is, we can ignore that. Ball speed obviously affects the accuracy of the distance, but again that's not what was pointed out here. So, it's really the ball direction that may be off with the DD. So...in the draw/push scenario above, you could have a draw on the DD (start slightly right and curve back to center) that may have come up on other devices as starting MORE right and still drawing back (since all these devices estimate side spin in the same manner) so maybe it ends up in the right rough or right side of the fairway. So, I don't think this is a case of the DD showing a draw where other devices would NOT have shown a draw..but more just that the initial direction may have been off so your shot result may have been inaccurate.

Exactly rdh. Also, from my experiences with the P3pro, the P3pro's ball flight was horribly inaccurate. Tweaking was needed. This has been documented on this site. The DD's ball flight was actually better than the initial P3pro's ball flight.

The actual ball path is one of those elements that you wouldn't think is needed. That is until you see it in action. I use to think that the estimated ball path from the PX2 was good enough. Not any more. Also, the estimated ball path will be different for each simulator software. They don't all use the same formula.

[psace]

What I am saying Zmax is exactly what RDH stated. That your comment was overstated. That's all. I agree no simulator is 100 percent accurate, but then again I don't think it is fair to bash some simulators either. There are those golfers out there who may appreciate the lower priced simulators and the value they do have.

[ZMax]

What I am saying Zmax is exactly what RDH stated. That your comment was overstated. That's all. I agree no simulator is 100 percent accurate, but then again I don't think it is fair to bash some simulators either. There are those golfers out there who may appreciate the lower priced simulators and the value they do have.

Like I said, I didn't mean to pick on the DD. Most of my comments in past about the DD have mostly been good. i.e. "best bang for buck".

Here's the point that I was trying to make: This goes for all simulators that don't have ball measurements including the PX2 by itself.

When you top the ball, you don't get penalized.

When you hit it on the toe of the driver even with a square club face, the ball will tend to shoot off to the right, but it's a perfect swing on the simulator.

When the sensor mat tells you that you had a 4 deg in-out and a 2 deg open face, the simulator will show the ball starting off to the right and then drawing back nicely. i.e. a beautiful draw. But lets say the ball actually hit the middle of the screen, where the actual face might have been squared but due to the tolerances or accuracy of the sensor mat, the 2 deg open face was reported instead. Then in reality, the ball would have ended up much further left of target. A simulator that accurately measures the ball path would have started the ball off correctly towards the target and hooking left.

These are just some examples. I'm not bashing anything.

[bubba22]

What I am saying Zmax is exactly what RDH stated. That your comment was overstated. That's all. I agree no simulator is 100 percent accurate, but then again I don't think it is fair to bash some simulators either. There are those golfers out there who may appreciate the lower priced simulators and the value they do have.

I don't think anyone here is bashing the dd. If you want to hear DD bashing then go to some of the other forums that completely put the DD down. There is value in all sims but lets be real and admit that some are better than others. I feel that my sim is better than the DD and I am allowed to tell people that. That is the purpose of these forums. By saying that, am I putting the DD down? I would say no but you feel that one is bashing the dd. You make comments that there are no other sims worth buying at a reasonable price and I completely disagree with you. I think the readers should know that there are several sims such as the GSA, ProTee and Pro7 that are very good and yes, more accurate than the dd. Myself, ZMax, RDH have all had the benefit of playing the dd/P3pro and these other sims to compare. Are we saying that the dd is terrible? No. There are those that have the GC2 and trust me, I would love to have one. I think the accuracy of the spin measurement with the GC2 is better than my ProTee and I have no problem saying that. In fact I want those users to tell us their experience. At the end of the day, it comes down to what one can afford. For low cost sims there is no question that the dd is the best bang for the buck, but don't for one minute think that it is the same as a higher end sim.

[bubba22]

The reason I mention this Psace is that you keep on saying that in your opinion there are no other sims other than the DD worth investing in:

" Thanks, TVANS216. I still believe that the other sims are still not worth investing in. I am waiting for a sim under $10,000 that will deliver ball spin, club data, launch angle and the ability to hit from any surface! That's right, I am dreaming."

Well having just invested in the ProTee (and I am sure ZMax, RDH etc all those that have invested good money in their respective sims) one may not agree with you and in fact take offence to your comments. I am happy with my sim and I do think their are other sims worth investing. Until you buy and try one, you will never know.

[syhlif32]

When you hit it on the toe of the driver even with a square club face, the ball will tend to shoot off to the right, but it's a perfect swing on the simulator.

That is not how the DD is going about it, you will get a huge slide if you hit on the toe.

You just can't get it right at least not for now.

The clubs you are playing with will have an influence on forgiveness and so will the balls you are using!
I can see even the different foam balls types behave very differently in their flights special on off center hits.
How does the software take that into account when is gets feed back for the sensors?

And it doesn't really help to have sensors for everything if the underlying calculations are wrong.
Even the different trajectory software can't agree on how a driver behave! Something that it pretty simple to check! If it wasn't for different clubs and golf balls!

You can have adjustments for everything build into the software but that will only produce something that fits you. Does not meant it makes it better at simulating a golf game.
Of the simulator pads only P3Pro have angle of attack! But they do not know what to do with the information.

None of the simulators can measure the dynamic club loft, as fare as I know?
Which is needed to calculate the correct spin.

Let us not argue about which simulator is the best and so on because they are all a lot closer to the Tiger Woods game on the Launch Pad than they are to real golf!

Does not mean that they can't be very useful. I am impressed with the DD and I hope the more expensive unites are even better.

Just have to focus on what they are best at simulating.

[rdh]

Let us not argue about which simulator is the best and so on because they are all a lot closer to the Tiger Woods game on the Launch Pad than they are to real golf!

I disagree with that. For the most part, when I have non-golfer friends come over to use the simulator, they struggle as badly as they would in real life and end up shooting 120. Not so far off from real life. On Tiger Woods with the Launch Pad, I expect they'd be shooting in the 80s.

[bubba22]

Just as there are different ways to measure the club and ball, there are different thoughts on the software side of what to do with th info. No one is arguing against that. You can debate values such as the angle of attack, the vertical and horizontal gear affect, spin etc. At the end of the day if you ar happy with your sim then stay as such. The fact is there are differences both in hardware and software. You can get real technical and we can discuss these values if one wants.

[bubba22]

I disagree with that. For the most part, when I have non-golfer friends come over to use the simulator, they struggle as badly as they would in real life and end up shooting 120. Not so far off from real life. On Tiger Woods with the Launch Pad, I expect they'd be shooting in the 80s.

I have th launchpad and yes they would shoot in the 80's.

[syhlif32]

We have people over playing on our DD two times a week.
One guy play about the same level as me on the real course. On the DD I beat him with 10-15 strokes every time.

My best golf friend he normally beats me with 2 -4 strokes on the real courses, used to be more!
He must have played the DD +20 times by now He has never beat me on the DD most the time he will be +5 behind.

It just shows that I am more used to play the simulator while he is the better golfer. The later I am working on changing!

Can your simulator simulate uneven lie, ball in a divot hole, rough uneven grass, ball laying on places where you can't make a good setup?
Well nether can the Launch pad.

Our golf simulators are similation golf shoots not a golf game and I am pretty sure yours with ball sensors are better than ours without but if you look at the titel of this tread we are now on page 4 and nobody has confirmed they have lowered their handicap yet.

[ZMax]

I guess you're right syhlif32. Why bother spending $1000 or $10,000? Companies like GGS, Protee, GolfTek, Trugolf, HDgolf, etc..... should just close up shop, since we're never going to see any real improvement beyond the DD or Launch Pad.

Better yet, we should just stick to Tiger Woods on the PS3. At least the graphics are better on it.

[bubba22]

I guess you're right syhlif32. Why bother spending $1000 or $10,000? Companies like GGS, Protee, GolfTek, Trugolf, HDgolf, etc..... should just close up shop, since we're never going to see any real improvement beyond the DD or Launch Pad.

Better yet, we should just stick to Tiger Woods on the PS3. At least the graphics are better on it.

That seems to be the general thought. Everybody can come to their own conclusion. For me the sim helps me work on my ball striking. Putting and chipping not so much. So overall maybe not but individual parts of ones game can be worked on. Most of all I want accurate fun. Nothing can be perfect but improvements in accuracy, grass top etc can help. Otherwise play the wii.

[ZMax]

Bubba22, that was my poor attempt at sarcasm.



Anyway, my simulator is now pretty much complete. It's been calibrated and tested. I will now work on my game. I normally hit a draw and I find it difficult to hit a fade. I would like to be able to confidently hit a fade when I need to. Especially with my irons.

I won't bother with the short game. I'll practice that on the course. Hopefully in about a month or less, I would have reduced my handicap.

[bubba22]

I hear you Z. I do think the sim will be helpful with the ball striking and things like hitting fade, draws and in your case high shots, low punch shots etc. That aspect of the game if one can control better, may be enough to allow more greens in regulation and not have to always rely on the short game. Do practice the shortgame obviously to be more complete. Congrats Z, I am sure you will be loving the sim.

It probably will take some rounds to see a real drop in handicap. Also Z even if the handicap doesn't drop, keep a rough idea on these important stats : Fairways hit, GIR, Up and downs, Bunker play, puts per round. I have been recording these and will continue to do so this year and focus on the first 2 for the sim. If they inprove and the others (short game stats) get worse/don't improve then the sim has done its job and more short game work is needed.

I am still awaiting another upgrade on the ProTee launch program. It is near complete and measuring the launch angles very well but probably needs some sort of calibration. Then it needs to be integrated to the customplay software, then add the ball cam and I am off running like you Z.

[ZMax]

Thanks Bubba22. It's a great feeling to finally have it all working. You will be in heaven once Protee gets it all done, which looks to be any day now.

I'll try to record as much stats as possible. My golf GPS can do this.

[70jr]

bubba is right z keep track of the stats and it will show if you have improved from your sim.

[ZMax]

bubba is right z keep track of the stats and it will show if you have improved from your sim.

I will do my best. Just need some time to practice and the rain to stop.

[northgolf]

The P3Proswing has actively hurt my playing ability. Completely untrustworthy feedback (swing path and face angle) plus its hiddeously bad insult for a grass top (might as well be hitting off concrete) puts it in a category of product which has a highest best use being customers beating its inventor to death with it as the blunt instrument.

There, do you know how I feel ? (and no, I'd never beat anyone to death with anything nor in anyway condone such behavior - it is polemics used to express distaste beyond that which can be said with acceptable language, at most I'd envision Dante adding another layer of hell just for the inventor and his ilk).

[ZMax]

The P3Proswing has actively hurt my playing ability. Completely untrustworthy feedback (swing path and face angle) plus its hiddeously bad insult for a grass top (might as well be hitting off concrete) puts it in a category of product which has a highest best use being customers beating its inventor to death with it as the blunt instrument.

There, do you know how I feel ? (and no, I'd never beat anyone to death with anything nor in anyway condone such behavior - it is polemics used to express distaste beyond that which can be said with acceptable language, at most I'd envision Dante adding another layer of hell just for the inventor and his ilk).

I know exactly how you feel.

P3pro's management have been listening to us have made a change in their business:

P3ProSwing™ Expands Sales Staff

March 28, 2011

[bubba22]

Sorry to hear that northgolf. I do think that the P3pro have a potentially good product. Their limitations are in their turf hardware and as Z said their management. I hope things improve for them. The big issue I had with the p3pro was their grass top which is hard and difficult to hit from. The rubber top was even worse.