Handicaipping for public players...

[goochy]

Marcf.... I didn't mean to sound anti OVGA mate...I meant last year as in November/December 2010...just a few months ago..not the distant past...I just went to it now and it does seem updated so I apologise for my earllier slagging off of their web page.

I will call them and ask them to clarify because it does seem a little strange...If one is a member of Golf Canada (through whichever root) in good standing and with an official handicap, I would hope you could play in any tournament (that your handicap allows). I could well be misreading their information because it is not clear to me from their web, but it does look like you need to be a member of a club affiliated to Golf Quebec to play...and that even a Golf Quebec public player would be excluded...but I could be wrong

[Husband]

Just signed up for the GAO because I was confused and didn't know what to do. I'm a public player who is looking to eventually begin playing tournaments in the future.

Is there something else I should be doing, too? I apologize for my seemingly ignorant post, but I've read a lot on the topic and am extremely confused what the best route to simply tracking your Handicap for the purposes of possibly moving on in my golf 'career'. RCGA? OGA? Golf Canada? OVGA?... ugh

Thanks!

[BC MIST]

Marcf.... I didn't mean to sound anti OVGA mate...I meant last year as in November/December 2010...just a few months ago..not the distant past...I just went to it now and it does seem updated so I apologise for my earllier slagging off of their web page.

I will call them and ask them to clarify because it does seem a little strange...If one is a member of Golf Canada (through whichever root) in good standing and with an official handicap, I would hope you could play in any tournament (that your handicap allows). I could well be misreading their information because it is not clear to me from their web, but it does look like you need to be a member of a club affiliated to Golf Quebec to play...and that even a Golf Quebec public player would be excluded...but I could be wrong

The OVGA is one of, I believe, 8 districts, within Golf Quebec. If you are a member of a local club and the club is a member of Golf Quebec, you are eligible to play in OVGA and Golf Quebec events. If you are a Golf Quebec Public Player, you can play in Golf Quebec Public Player events and a handful of other Golf Quebec events. (http://www.golfquebec.org/english/index.asp?id=79) Unless the rules are going to be changed, Public Players may not play in OVGA events. There is a Spring Open qualifier in the Ottawa area each year (A Golf Quebec event) in which Public players may participate and there are several other Spring Open Qualifiers in the Quebec region around the same time. Being a member of Golf Quebec makes you an automatic member of the RCGA.

Those who joined the GAO as Public Players or as members of clubs that belong to the GAO, are obviously eligible to play in GAO events that, presumably, are or will be listed on the GAO website.

However, if you are a GAO member you may not play in OVGA tournaments, because OVGA events are for Golf Quebec members.

Now, locally, many golf clubs organize their own invitationals, (The Smuggler's Shootout, for example) so if you have an official handicap, you may play in these, regardless of your provincial affiliation, if you meet the club's qualifying requirements. (age/handicap..) So for the Public Player, there is a little choice, but certainly not as much as a club member.

[goochy]

However, if you are a GAO member you may not play in OVGA tournaments, because OVGA events are for Golf Quebec members. at least those who belong to a club

Thanks for clarifying BC Mist. I thought that's what the situation was. My only head scratching issue is "why?"

I just checked the GAO website and every single GAO event is open to ANY GAO member..whether a member of a club or a public player. On top of this they have a series of events open ONLY to Public Players.
In contrast, the Golf Quebec website starts its eligibilty requirements for almost every event with "are members of a club which is a member of Golf Quebec...." and as you explained, OVGA events are only open to Club members.

I don't understand why, if you pay your dues to Golf Quebec, you would be ineligible for any tournament. Whether you pay those dues through the $25 being tagged on to your club dues or if you join Golf Quebec directly as a Public Player. Obviously the GAO has a different philosophy on this.
I would hope that one of the roles of Golf Quebec, GAO or any of Golf Canada's provincial bodies is to serve their members...all their members.

I was a member of a private club till very recently and now I am a Public Player. It appears the GAO is much more open and dare I say "modern" in recruiting these players and allowing them to play tournament Golf if they wish.

[BC MIST]

I don't understand why, if you pay your dues to Golf Quebec, you would be ineligible for any tournament. Whether you pay those dues through the $25 being tagged on to your club dues or if you join Golf Quebec directly as a Public Player. Obviously the GAO has a different philosophy on this.
I would hope that one of the roles of Golf Quebec, GAO or any of Golf Canada's provincial bodies is to serve their members...all their members.

I was a member of a private club till very recently and now I am a Public Player. It appears the GAO is much more open and dare I say "modern" in recruiting these players and allowing them to play tournament Golf if they wish.

In the OVGA events in which I either play or at which I officiate, none of them have a full field. Logically then, it would make sense to open up the field to Public Players in order to increase participation.

While I don't have access to any inside information regarding "why" this does not happen in Golf Quebec, I can throw out a couple of off the cuff thoughts which may or may not have any validity.

(1) I don't know the average cost of being a member at a semi private or private club but fees generally range from $1000 to perhaps $5000, so for discussion purposes, let's say it's $2000. Why should public players who pay nothing (exclude entry and RCGA fee) have equal access to OVGA tournaments?

(2) Semi Private clubs that host tournaments lose money on the days they host an OVGA tournaments. While a small portion of the entry fee is returned to the club and while there are cart rental fees, driving range costs and food and drink purchases by the participants, the gross income is a lot less than if the club was open to members and green fee players on an average day. However, clubs agree to "give up" their courses to other club's members once a year or one every two years for tournaments, and so the losses are shared. Again, why should Public Players have access to private and semi private clubs for nothing?

Clubs are becoming more and more reluctant to give up their course for a day and so securing venues for the tournaments in becoming increasingly difficult. Our club is a actually hosting 6 tournament rounds this year, unheard of in the OVGA.

(3) All OVGA tournaments require both a Tournament and a Rules Committee, usually 6 or more people. Almost all are club members who volunteer, who work up to 16 hours on any given tournament day, and who organize, preview courses, make draws, prepare scorecards, time par sheets, Conditions of Competition and so on, on days leading up to each tournament. What do/would Public Players contribute?

(4) In the same way that club members created the ODGA, now the OVGA, why is it not possible for Public Players to form their own similar organization and establish their own Committees and tournaments schedule? In this technological age, it should be fairly easy to do this.

So I am of two minds: One, the more the merrier, good for local golf and for creating interest in tournament play for all area golfers. The other, with clubs and club members footing the bill, losing money and losing the course on tournament day, why should PP's gets all of this for free? Would PP's be willing to pay as extra, the difference between what the club does get on tournament day and what the regular green fee is, in their entry fee?

What is the ideal solution?

[Sakuraba]

Those points may be off the cuff but they are completely valid, great post BC.

The ideal solution in my mind is to get more golfers to join clubs. The rub is how to do it.

[Ruskie]

I'm curious, what's the average tournament fee for an OVGA event and how much of it goes to the club vs. OVGA and why?

It seems to me that if the problem is simply money, then why not have a higher tournament fee for a public player, to cover the green fee to the club? The hosting clubs should be happy with that arrangement, and I'd think most, if not all, public players would understand the reasoning behind it. I, for one, would happily pay my green fee if that allowed me to play OVGA events.

The argument that club members pay more that public players is not really valid. Club members pay up front and then play for free all year long, while public players pay a green fee every time they play. Depending on the number of rounds player, public players are often paying more in the end.

Andrew, I don't agree with your ideal solution. Perhaps in the old days joining a club was the way to go, but nowadays it really is a tossup. It's a choice between being a member of a group of like-minded people vs. the freedom to choose to play any course at any time. It doesn't have to be that way, of course, and there're options that bridge that gap, such as Clublink or EG/RM/CG. The bottom line is that it's a personal choice and shouldn't affect one's eligibility for supposedly public tournaments.

Speaking for myself, some years ago (before EG offered GAO memberships) I looked long and hard at OVGA public player program and eventually decided against it for the simple reason that it didn't allow me to enter virtually any local tournaments. Aside from the fact that there was little value in it for me without tournament access, it left a bad taste of being treated as a second-class citizen.

I'm glad to hear that GAO treats public players as equals. I hope OVGA (or Golf Quebec, or whoever is responsible for this policy) would change their stance soon.

[goochy]

BC Mist...I always enjoy your posts, they are well thought out and well written. They make me think and stimulate discussion.

In response though, I would agree with lots of what Ruskie posted. Surely the tournament entry fee is there to cover costs. I suppose it really all comes down to the mandate of the OVGA. If its clear mandate is to serve club golfers...then great..carry on, but perhaps change the name to OVCGA. If it is trying to expand and serve all golfers in the area then maybe be congnisant that Public Players exist and may wish to play tournament golf in the region they live.

Just as a last morsal of food for thought....one of the very best Amateur Golfers in Canada, Dave Bunker, current Canadian Mid-Amateur Champion (third straight year), Ontario Mid-Amateur Champion, Ontario Match Play Champion, 5th place at the Ontario Amateur Championship, 22nd place in the Canadian Amateur Championship...and..uhmmmmm...current Ontario Public Player Champion.

Bunker achieved ALL that last year as a Public Player...part of the GAO Public Player program where is excluded from no events.

[Kilroy]

IMHO the only event Public Players should be excluded from are the intersectionals, which are club vs club competitions.

[jvincent]

IMHO the only event Public Players should be excluded from are the intersectionals, which are club vs club competitions.

Agreed.

As others have pointed out, if cost is the issue, raise the entry fee.

[BC MIST]

(1) I'm curious, what's the average tournament fee for an OVGA event and how much of it goes to the club vs. OVGA and why?

(2) It seems to me that if the problem is simply money, then why not have a higher tournament fee for a public player, to cover the green fee to the club? The hosting clubs should be happy with that arrangement, and I'd think most, if not all, public players would understand the reasoning behind it. I, for one, would happily pay my green fee if that allowed me to play OVGA events.

(3) The argument that club members pay more that public players is not really valid. Club members pay up front and then play for free all year long, while public players pay a green fee every time they play. Depending on the number of rounds player, public players are often paying more in the end.

(4) Speaking for myself, some years ago (before EG offered GAO memberships) I looked long and hard at OVGA public player program and eventually decided against it for the simple reason that it didn't allow me to enter virtually any local tournaments. Aside from the fact that there was little value in it for me without tournament access, it left a bad taste of being treated as a second-class citizen.

As I am not an OVGA "insider," I cannot answer all your questions with 100% accuracy, but...
(1) For a regular Class A, B or Senior Field Day, the entry fee was $50 in 2010. For tournaments with trophies, two or three day events, and with meals, obviously higher. While I know the amount that each club gets per participant, I don't think it's my position to disclose it, but suffice it to say, it's very small, and just a few years ago, it was NOTHING. Of the total entry amount, I believe that between 85% to 90% goes back to the club for meals, if one is served, or the participant fee, and prizes for the players. The balance covers other expenses. The OVGA is a non profit organization.

(2) This certainly seems reasonable.

(3) Yes, club members pay an average fixed amount of "$2000/a" to be a member, regardless of how much they play. PP's pay only for the games they play, and most, I would guess, do NOT play the regular green fee. (RM, CG, EG) What they pay in total, is optional.

(4) The public player programme falls under Golf Quebec, not the OVGA. I don't see public players as "second class," but just golfers who choose to play a variety of courses, instead of one.

For discussion purposes, PP's and club members are two distinct groups of golfers, like Reservation Masters and Executive Golf. If I joined EG, would I also get the all the benefits that RM may have to offer? Not likely. But PP's want all the benefits (tournaments) that OVGA club members have. Member clubs give up roughly 40 days or parts of days, to host tournaments (Men, Ladies, and Juniors), excluding about 40 days worth of Intersectional Match days, where members cannot play and the club, if semi-private, loses 60 to 70% of a normal day's revenue. For those PP's who want access to all OVGA tournaments, what do they give or give up? Why do they feel they deserve something for nothing?

If I was a Public Player, I think I have a rationale argument for possible inclusion in OVGA events, but I would like to have others can come up with something reasonable other than, "I want what I want when I want it." Dr. Phil

To those who would be willing to pay an additional amount to play in an OVGA organized tournament, and if the fee for club members was $50, how much more would you be willing to pay?

[goochy]

Why do they feel they deserve something for nothing?

If I was a Public Player, I think I have a rationale argument for possible inclusion in OVGA events, but I would like to have others can come up with something reasonable other than, "I want what I want when I want it." Dr. Phil

To those who would be willing to pay an additional amount to play in an OVGA organized tournament, and if the fee for club members was $50, how much more would you be willing to pay?

With all due respect BC Mist, I think your argument could, and maybe should, be inverted.

I dont believe the Public Players would be getting `something for nothing` in fact I believe it is the exact opposite. Firstly, lets distinguish between intersectionals (which are by definition only open to club players) and regular tournaments.
The fees for a regular tournament probably should be between $150 - $200 (this seems reasonable to cover expenses and in line with the GAO posted fees).
The expenses for this tournament are pretty much fixed, wheteher 30, 35 or 40 players play, the cost of hosting are, I would imagine, reasonably `flat` and the tournament is going ahead regardless.
The point I am trying to make is that if this tournament was opened to Public Players, and for the sake of argument, 6 Public Players entered, then that is an extra $1000-$1200 revenue for basically no extra expenses
Who`s getting something for nothing now

[jvincent]

I don't think anyone is saying Public Players should be getting anything for free. The tournament has an entry fee, and the PP would pay it.

Does the OVGA restrict members from clubs who don't host a tournament that year from playing? Those members aren't giving up anything and yet they are allowed to play.

A quick check of this year's schedule shows that Rivermead, Royal Ottawa, Camelot, Rideauview, Eagle Creek, Greyhawk are not hosting tournaments this year. Not sure if they did last year. Maybe all their members should be barred from entering?

[Kilroy]

Of course the Public Players would be prepared pay a green fee on top of the entry fee. They always pay green fees. They don't expect reciprocals.

Then these events would likely all be full. The course and the organizers would benefit financially. It makes no sense.

[gbower]

John, Rivermead, Royal Ottawa and Ottawa Hunt rotate hosting the Alexander of Tunis and final round of the "A" City and District. Last year Greyhawk and Camelot hosted a tournament or two, Eagle Creek is hosting a mixed event, Rideauview is hosting the Junior match play qualifier and the ladies Tournament of Champions and Camelot will be hosting the Canadian Amateur tournament next year.

[jvincent]

Fair enough, I just looked at this year's men's tournament schedule. But there are 74 member courses according to the OVGA site so getting courses shouldn't be a problem.

Either way, the argument that somehow the cost of hosting a tournaments is somehow built into the membership fee of players who are members at clubs doesn't wash.

I am pretty sure the OVGA is partially funded by RCGA membership fees. As such, and given the mandate of the RCGA to "grow the game", the OVGA should be looking for ways to do that.

Opening tournaments to public players, who by definition are RCGA members, should be a no-brainer. Charge them an entry fee and you're good to go.

Look at the Citizen Tournament. They charge $200 and there are plenty of golfers who sign up even though most know they won't make the second round cut.

[nokids]

Look at the Citizen Tournament. They charge $200 and there are plenty of golfers who sign up even though most know they won't make the second round cut.

I just hope I don't finish last.

[BC MIST]

I dont believe the Public Players would be getting `something for nothing` in fact I believe it is the exact opposite. Firstly, lets distinguish between intersectionals (which are by definition only open to club players) and regular tournaments.
The fees for a regular tournament probably should be between $150 - $200 (this seems reasonable to cover expenses and in line with the GAO posted fees).
The expenses for this tournament are pretty much fixed, wheteher 30, 35 or 40 players play, the cost of hosting are, I would imagine, reasonably `flat` and the tournament is going ahead regardless.
The point I am trying to make is that if this tournament was opened to Public Players, and for the sake of argument, 6 Public Players entered, then that is an extra $1000-$1200 revenue for basically no extra expenses
Who`s getting something for nothing now

The most expensive OVGA tournament in 2010 was the City and District "A" Championship at $120, for 2 rounds guaranteed, possibly 3 if cut made, plus a meal after round 2. For field days, 1 round, no meal, only prizes, the cost was $50. All other tournaments are somewhere in between. Presumably, with the size of the fields they get, they come close to breaking even financially, overall. It is important to understand that after paying membership fees to their respective clubs, most club members are definitely NOT going to pay $100 to $200 to play an OVGA event, unless the venue is one of the best courses in the area, AND, not a long distance away. The size of most fields is determined by the quality of the course being played. The Seniors Championship two years back ended at the Royal Ottawa Golf Club and the field was TOO full. Last year at GlenMar/Greyhawk-Predator, roughly 110. If the fee was as you suggested, more club members would rather take these funds and head to Smuggler's, Black Bear Ridge, Le Maitre, Le Diable and the like. So while some clubs seldom host events, if they did, the field might be embarrassing low if the course is not up to contemporary standards.

I agree that increasing the size of the field, at good venues, while maintaining a reasonable cost, heightens competition and avoids negative financial years for the organization. If the extra amount that PP's paid would go directly to the host club, then it looks like a win/win. One point that is missing from this discussion is the PP's play much of their golf at semi private courses that are also members of the OVGA et al. As was mentioned previously, some of you pay more money for your golf in total, than some club golfers pay in membership fees, and a good chunk of that to local SP clubs, so PP's should be given credit for doing this.

I don't know what discussion has taken place at the Board level, regarding this issue, but I am sure that the topic will be kept alive. There may not be an ideal solution that is equally fair to all parties involved, but advancing the game and increasing competitive participation is essential, and hopefully we/they will come up with something, soon.

It would be interesting to hear responses on the issue, pro or con, from those who are club members, particularly of the private golf clubs

[BC MIST]

I might. I know that the GAO has a specific public player tournament and allows the public players into their other tournaments.

Where does it indicate that PP's are permitted to play "into their other tournaments."

Membership - $28.00/year + HST ($31.64)
Includes:
- Golf Canada Membership Card
- Official RCGA Handicap Factor®
- Access to preferred pricing on insurance, hotels and travel.
- Discounts on Team Canada Merchandise
- Discounts on CN Canadian Women's Open/RBC Canadian Open tickets
- Ontario Golf & Golf Canada magazines (home delivery) and e-Golf Canada
- Opportunity to attend handicap and rules of golf seminars
- Exclusive access to Public Player Championships (subject to an entry fee)
- Access to member discounts from a variety of partners
- Entry in member draws and contests

[jvincent]

Just checked the eligibility for one of the qualifying tournaments for the Men's Better Ball. The following criteria includes GAO public players.

Entries are open to male amateur golfers who are members of the Golf Association of Ontario. EACH team member must have an up-to-date 2011 GAO/RCGA Handicap Factor of 8.4 or less.

All of the other one's I checked have pretty much the same criteria.

[goochy]

Where does it indicate that PP's are permitted to play "into their other tournaments."

just go on the GAO website (which, BTW is up to date and easy to navigate...unlike some) click on their tournamnet schedule for 2011, pick a tournament (pick any one you like) and then check the eligibility requirements.

For all of them it simply says "must be a GAO member and have a current RCGA Handicap not exceeding xyz" (depending on the tournament)

Do the same thing on the Golf Quebec website...it will say "must be a member of a club affiliated to Golf Quebec etc etc etc"

Thats how Dave Bunker did so well without being a member of a club...if he lived in Ottawa he might not have been able to do that

[marcf]

For all of them it simply says "must be a GAO member and have a current RCGA Handicap not exceeding xyz" (depending on the tournament)

Do the same thing on the Golf Quebec website...it will say "must be a member of a club affiliated to Golf Quebec etc etc etc"

Thats how Dave Bunker did so well without being a member of a club...if he lived in Ottawa he might not have been able to do that

Thats's a crazy statement. Unless you know David Bunker personally and his family/work/life situation, how can you comment. Maybe if Bunker lived in Ottawa, his personal situation may be different and he may be a member of a club here. Maybe it is too expensive to join a club near where he lives in Toronto. Maybe he's an alien from Saturn...who the heck knows? But to attribute it totally to the GAO public player program is nuts.

Found this in about 30 seconds on the Golf Quebec website. Under the heading "Public Players Program" an entire PAGE about the tournament access for Public Players in Golf Quebec, ironically, it's the close to the same for members of semi private and private clubs...



All members of the Public Golfer Program of Golf Québec may participate in the events organized for the program:

• The 2 qualifying rounds for the Public Golfer Provincial Championship
• The Public Golfer Provincial Championship
• These tournaments are opened to golfers of all levels: men and women.

Different classes will be created to fit the level of the participants.
MEN:
The overall Class ‘’A’’ champion of the 2011 Public Golfer Tour (after the accumulation of points in the 3 events of 2011, following the point system) will automatically be exempted for the six major tournaments of Golf Québec (Spring Open, Mid-Amateur Championship, Alexander of Tunis, Duke of Kent, Amateur Championship, and Senior Championship).

Tournaments of the Public Golfer Program are now considered as designated rounds exclusively for the public golfers themselves, and they will be used for the calculation of differentials on the provincial ladder.
If a Public Golfer establishes a differential that is good enough to participate in the major tournaments of Golf Québec, this player will be accepted.



Men can also play in the following tournaments of the regular calendar of Golf Québec:

• Spring Open qualifying rounds (designated rounds for the differential)
• Qualifying round for the Men’s Provincial Amateur Championship (designated round for the differential)
• Qualifying round for the Alexander of Tunis (designated round for the differential)
• Men’s Provincial Four-Ball Championship
• Generations’ Provincial Championship
• Provincial Mixed Championship
  

Seems to give as much access to their events as GAO does, unless I am reading the above wrong. Seems to me like they have granted access to the tournament system, just like any club member has, and given the Public player extra rounds EXCLUSIVE TO THEM towards their ranking! Things seem pretty balanced. All players have to earn their way into the provincial level events through play in designated events. In order to get into the events, play well, get your ladder ranking high/low enough and entry is easy. If you play well enough, then you will have access to tournaments in Quebec that are part of the RCGA / Golf Canada National Order of Merit.

http://www.rcga.org/_uploads/documen...0-%20FINAL.pdf

Let's remember that it is not the OVGA setting policy on Public Players, it is the provincial governing bodies across the country.

[goochy]

"Thats's a crazy statement. Unless you know David Bunker personally and his family/work/life situation, how can you comment."

That is why I used the word "might"...of course it conjecture. However, it is not conjecture to state that if he lived in Ottawa as a Public Player he could not play in OVGA events.

"But to attribute it totally to the GAO public player program is nuts."

I don't think I ever did attribute his success to being a Public Player. I just found it relevant to the discussion to point out that one of Canada's most successful amateur golfers is a Public Player. I state again, it is noteworthy that such a player could not play in OVGA events were he or she live in Ottawa

It seems to me that any time someone is even remotely critical or even raises an eyebrow to the OVGA or Golf Quebec you become very defensive.

[Ruskie]

Thats's a crazy statement. Unless you know David Bunker personally and his family/work/life situation, how can you comment.

Really? Do we need to know his family history to see that GAO has enabled him to do things he wouldn't have been able to do with OVGA?

Found this in about 30 seconds on the Golf Quebec website. Under the heading "Public Players Program" an entire PAGE about the tournament access for Public Players in Golf Quebec, ironically, it's the close to the same for members of semi private and private clubs...

Those are all provincial tournaments. Unless I miss my guess, most people don't have the game to compete in those, not to mention that the trip to get there would probably be just as long as to Kingston or Belleville.

What about all the local events? You know, the ones that most golfers can be competitive in and don't have to empty the gas tank getting to...
Umm... sorry, no. In fact, there doesn't seem to be any mention of "Public Player Program" in the entire OVGA site.
Now please, tell me how does this not qualify as "second-class treatment".

I don't really care to make the distinction between GQ and OVGA as far as policy-making is concerned. I don't know who decides what and I don't much care. All I know is that the "public program" that is offered in my local region is really not worth much, to me personally, aside from the official handicapping. That's fine, it's still worth $30 to me, but I'd rather pay it to GAO so that one day when if I feel like a road trip I'd drive the 2 hours to Kingston and play in one of their tournaments.

[marcf]

My point is in response to the quote

"just go on the GAO website (which, BTW is up to date and easy to navigate...unlike some) click on their tournamnet schedule for 2011, pick a tournament (pick any one you like) and then check the eligibility requirements..."

If you follow the suggested path of clicks, it takes you to the provincial schedule. Not a regional or local schedule. Just showing that the same access is available. I don't see a list of Kingston regional events by clicking on the 2011 Tournament schedule.

My suggestion? Instead of whining about "second class treatment" and about what the OVGA doesn't do for the public player program here in the region, make an appointment and present your concerns to them in person, with some solutions and real world proof of what other REGIONAL ASSOCIATIONS are providing in addition to the provincial policies. That is where the point trips up. People here want the OVGA to do something, but they do not run the PP program. The OVGA is made up of MEMBER CLUBS, not individuals, always has been since about 1948. It is AFFLIATED with Golf Quebec, and Golf Canada. Affliliation does not mean commanded-by. Some of the events are co-sanctioned with Golf Quebec and Golf Canada, and some events it runs are for the members of the member clubs of its organization. If you choose not to be a member, thats not their fault you don't have access, totally your choice. There are approx 80 member clubs in the region, so lots of selection.

Apathy is so typical of our great country. People will write about their their so-called issues, but not follow through the formal process of coming up with a viable plan and asking for change. Call them, book a meeting, be prepared, present well, answer all of the questions asked, and maybe, just maybe something may happen. If the member clubs do this exact thing when issues arise, and receive results, then why shouldn't you.

[marcf]

Goochy,

You kinda did attribute his success to being a public player with your following quote

"...Thats how Dave Bunker did so well without being a member of a club...if he lived in Ottawa he might not have been able to do that..."

Not being defensive, just saying that people want to complain, point out weaknesses and not do anything to initiate change. There are a lot of hard working volunteers that give hundreds of hours of their time to run an organization for the member clubs who I don't like reading being trashed. Yes I am a member of a private club, and enjoy access to the events. All I am saying is instead of writing stuff here, if you want change, call them and come up with a plan. Get involved.

I do agree with BC Mist's Dr. Phil quote though...lol.

Thanks all for the debate, many worthy adversaries, and thought provoking points, but I take my leave. FYI, I would be more than happy to help anyone at anytime prepare a presentation to assist change. I now take on the task of duct taping my hands to my office chair and not commenting. Maybe I can type with my nose...lol.

Sun is out, we'll all be playing in a couple of weeks here in the region.
Cheers.

[Ruskie]

Not being defensive, just saying that people want to complain, point out weaknesses and not do anything to initiate change. There are a lot of hard working volunteers that give hundreds of hours of their time to run an organization for the member clubs who I don't like reading being trashed. Yes I am a member of a private club, and enjoy access to the events. All I am saying is instead of writing stuff here, if you want change, call them and come up with a plan. Get involved.

Hmm... do the people who make policy decisions in GQ and OVGA work without pay? Nobody is trashing the volunteers, just the policy of the organization as a whole.

As for "call them and come up with a plan", we're debating the issues in a public forum which, hopefully, is visited by someone from the OVGA or GQ government, and there were a couple of specific things proposed to remedy the situation. Is that not an appropriate method for getting things to change? Sorry, I don't really care enough about these issues to picket GQ or OVGA offices with "Let PPs play!" banners, maybe when I retire...

Cheers,
Alex.

[nokids]

http://lolmart.com/files/2010/07/8dfff492-bc34-491f-b3aa-30af9cd7b901.jpg

[BC MIST]

Hmm... do the people who make policy decisions in GQ and (1) OVGA work without pay? Nobody is trashing the volunteers, just the policy of the organization as a whole.

As for "call them and come up with a plan", we're debating the issues in a public forum which, hopefully, (2) is visited by someone from the OVGA or GQ government, and there were a couple of specific things proposed to remedy the situation. Is that not an appropriate method for getting things to change? Sorry, I don't really care enough about these issues to picket GQ or OVGA offices with "Let PPs play!" banners, maybe when I retire...

(1) The Directors of the OVGA are volunteers and work without pay. The Tournament Committee members (Men's, Ladies and Juniors), the Rules Committee members, the Course Rating Committee members.... are also volunteers and work without pay. It is of the members, by the members, and for the members, at no charge.

(2) It is presumptuous to think that any of the OVGA Board of Directors would frequent a public forum to read the complaints from golfers who are not members of the organization. Complaining publicly is a very poor way of trying to solve something that is perceived as a problem. If the few PP's here who feel they are being short changed by the current policy and who want to effect change, they should do as Marc suggested above and contact the OVGA President and state their case in a positive way.

How well do you think you would be received if a committee of public players, however small, went to the OVGA and started a discussion by saying said, "We would like to be part of and contribute to your organization?"

Marc. Pass the duct tape.

[gbower]

hmmm, hmmmm, "can't get the duct tape off" hmmmm