CPG Red Chain Courses

[SodaBoy]

New to this board - although not new to P3Pro and GSA courses... or more accurately CPG courses. Quite surprised I couldn't find this forum after two years of looking for P3Pro users that I could chat to and discuss the various issues and problems surrounding the P3Pro hardware/software.

I don't know how many of you received an email from me about a year ago - as I was replying to all P3Pro customers who were screwed over by P3Pro and their "custom courses" that were a joke (the first iteration)... I sent out a long email outlining some of the tweaks I suggested regarding the software, as well as providing free custom courses which I designed using the CPG software... all of that fell on deaf ears - basically the management of P3Pro don't want to improve their customers' experience even when the answers are staring them in the face and they are offered some fixes for free... anyway - rant over...

Since I read all 16 pages of this thread - I noticed a lot of good things being said about GSA software/hardware... and I must say that I regret not having been part of the GSA community because my hard work developing custom courses would have been much more appreciated by the GSA management than it has been by P3P management...

Also I think it would be more accurate to call all custom courses used by P3P and GSA alike - by their correct acronym which is "CPG courses".

The courses we are all debating - their accuracy, their physics/dynamics... they have been created in a video game architect software for a PC game called CUSTOMPLAYGOLF... specifically, CustomPlayGolf2010...

So these courses are not GSA courses, or P3P courses... they are video game courses made for CPG, which are then ported to work with many different simulators. Talking about GSA courses is misleading because it sounds like the courses were developed specifically for GSA... when this is incorrect.

I have personally designed the Royal Harare Golf Club Course using the CPG architect - and the course was very well received by the CPG community and other designers. I tried to "market" this course to P3Pro management to offer for FREE as a gift to all the people who were screwed over by their little "scam" last year - but they refused because I was very vocal about their incompetence and unprofessional attitude.

Then late last year I noticed my course being offered as part of a package sold by many other simulator companies, including GSA - without my consent. Actually when I released my course to the CPG community I explicitly stated that this creation is freeware for the CPG game but that I do not authorise the porting to any simulator hardware... because I don't want someone profiting from my hard work.

In his defense, Martin from GSA replied to my email regarding the issue immediately and we resolved it without problems... that in itself showed me that he is a fair guy and that he probably knows how to run his company better than the fools over at P3Pro...

I just wish that this whole golf simulation business would be more transparent - I mean even GSA... their website is stuck in the 90s, P3P management is a joke, others are copying/stealing designers' hard work without problem or repercussion - nothing seems clear, simple... people have to roam forums like this one to gain insight... and still people don't know how all this is developed...

1. Dean over at CustomPlayGolf (now known as World Golf 2011) uses his gaming community to create courses and to test his software in the "raw" stages...
2. He then markets custom ports of this software to different simulator manufacturers... P3P, GSA, IGS etc...
3. Different simulator companies then spend various amount of time tweaking their hardware to interact with the basic mechanics of the CPG software... therefore the slight differences in usability across simulators...

---

I wanted to ask if someone would be so kind to email me or PM me any tweaks which are available for the p3pro that would improve the physics of the custom courses... I read something was available but I don't know if this was with reference to the GSA software specifically.

Thanks in advance, and those who have by chance bought a course pack that features my golf course... hope you are enjoying it - so drop me a line and let me know if the effort was worth it... (at least that, when obviously I didn't get my portion of the $$)

[ZMax]

Thanks for posting it again. I'll email you the tweaks later tonight.

I share your feelings and frustrations about the golf industry and P3pro. I'm on my 3rd simulator now and with everyone of them so far, the ball flight was not accurate and needed to be tweaked. The GGS system allows this and so did the P3pro but the folks at P3pro will tell you that thier system is 99.9 accurate.

As for the CPG/GSA courses, myself and a few others do know that these courses came from Dean at Red Chain, but you're right, most folks won't know the difference. The reason why I refer to the P3pro virtual courses as GSA is because there were some files in the P3pro Virtual folder that were actually named GSA*.*. That made me think that perhaps P3pro got the courses from Martin at GSA, or maybe originally. It also explained why P3pro have not been getting updates on CPG courses. GSA gets the latest updates from Dean.

The management at P3pro are morons. For example, they discontinued their LA add-on even though it was working. They now have partnered with Accusport and Zelocity for LA, but the infomation you get with these are just for SHOW. No integration with the 36 virtual courses. I'm not even sure if the info is being used for the range either. The promo image that they are using clearly suggest that it's not. Also Accusport and Zelocity units cost a lot of money($4000). Something stinks at P3pro.....

[Unkynd]

ZMax, some of what you wrote is exactly why I decided against P3Pro and am currently looking at the ProX2 instead.

[ZMax]

Then late last year I noticed my course being offered as part of a package sold by many other simulator companies, including GSA - without my consent. Actually when I released my course to the CPG community I explicitly stated that this creation is freeware for the CPG game but that I do not authorise the porting to any simulator hardware... because I don't want someone profiting from my hard work.

In his defense, Martin from GSA replied to my email regarding the issue immediately and we resolved it without problems... that in itself showed me that he is a fair guy and that he probably knows how to run his company better than the fools over at P3Pro...

What they did was criminal. Martin is definitely a fair guy. If not for his wife, his prices would be lower. GGS is also not a big operation. He only has a few people helping him, if that. Unlike Protee or P3pro.

I did look at your course and I think you did a great job. The fields, stadium, and buildings looked great.

[bubba22]

Very good post and an interesting topic. I echo all the frustration. I think the regulars on this forum have a good understanding of the software issues of the golf sim industry. Certainly P3pro have some major issues in that regard. Thank you Sodaboy for your honesty.

[rdh]

It's great to have a course designer join in here. I've posted on the 24 Hr Gaming site a number of times but it's been two disparate groups to this point - those playing and designing for CPG/World Golf Challenge (the new name in north america) and the simulator user group Nice to see the two start to come together...

When I started down my whole path with Golftek and GSA, I discovered in bits and pieces how things worked. At times it was very confusing. Once I realized that a lot of the courses were developed by hobbyists at no charge and then packaged up and distributed to the simulator companies, I was a bit boggled by how the whole thing worked. I loved getting courses free or at a low price, but I also thought it would discourage designers from creating new courses if they weren't compensated. I'd be happier to pay a bit for each course to compensate the people taking the time to do the work and get them making more courses...I think we all love to see exciting new ones!

I must say, though, that both Dean and Martin have been amazing to deal with for me personally and have been incredible from a support standpoint and getting new feature requests into the software. I greatly appreciate their time and assistance so I don't want to say anything negative against them. I don't know all the details on how things are structured or meant to work, but I agree it does seem a bit questionable.

When I first started learning the way things worked in the industry, it became clear it was a very convoluted thing. Multiple companies using different flavours of the same software branded different ways...all very confusing. What I would like to see (and what I think Red Chain should try to line up given they're in a good position to do it) would be for one or two companies to become the primary software providers (maybe Simway, Red Chain and TruGolf/E6) and then the selection of hardware and software to become a bit more deparated. i.e. let people buy whatever hardware they want, AND whatever software they prefer, and have integration routines available to make the software work with each device. So, you could buy high-end hardware but go with Simway software, or (as unlikely as it may be) buy an Optishot and go with E6 Golf. The hardware companies could focus on what they do best, and the software companies could focus on their side without maintaining multiple different branded versions of the same software engine each with different features. It's frustrating for P3Pro people to read about the tweaking options available in the ProTee software when they are using (essentially) the same software but without all the same options.

The home simulator market is still in its relative infancy, so over time maybe we'll get to that type of structure...although I'm doubtful. Right now there seems to be a lot of competitiveness and somewhat shady things going on as each company tries to gain an edge...and the software is part of that. So, ProTee can promote their software with all its tweaking options as something the other hardware providers don't have. They would be reluctant to accept a single version of the software available to all hardware users I'm sure...but it would be in the best interest of users generally.

[bubba22]

I totally agree RDH. I am not optimistic it will change.

The P3pro issue is puzzling. I could be wrong but my feeling is that they have 2 things going against themsleves:
1) They don't have inside programmers like the dd, ProTee, GSA etc. This must be limiting for them.
2) For what ever reason they are not getting updated with the latest CPG software updates, or perhaps they are but not passing it along to the users.

Either way they are shooting themselves in the foot. I won't speculate on their sales etc as it is not my place. What I can say is that this forum will reach a lot of people that are deciding on which sim to buy. There are many options to chose from and as such a lot of former p3pro users will not recommend the product until things are resolved. It is as simple as that. They have had a longstanding issue with their virtual courses and frankly put since getting the ProTee which is essentially the same software, the difference is night and day. Are there any other sim companies that are using the so called CPG software that are having such issues as the P3pro? I think the answer is no. I am not sure what the issue exactly is however it would seem to be a software/interface program issue and not the hardware or end platform.

[blackfire]

When you guys say that Protee offers a lot of tweaking what are you talking about exactly. I thought that you could ajust distance but what else can you tweak. what it somebody get the unit and do no tweak.

[bubba22]

ProTee has the option to adjust the clubhead speed, ball speed, distances of clubs and putting distances. This allows for use of limited flight balls with the ball track.

[blackfire]

If I buy a unit and use it with real ball there's no need for tweaking?

[blackfire]

Thanks for posting it again. I'll email you the tweaks later tonight.

I share your feelings and frustrations about the golf industry and P3pro. I'm on my 3rd simulator now and with everyone of them so far, the ball flight was not accurate and needed to be tweaked. The GGS system allows this and so did the P3pro but the folks at P3pro will tell you that thier system is 99.9 accurate.

What do you mean exactly by "with everyone of them so far, the ball flight was not accurate and needed to be tweaked" what tweaking are you talking about?

Diastance, Do you think that launch angle measument there would be less tweaking to do?

[bubba22]

I think with real balls there is less tweaking. Remember there is estimation of spin which will vary with the typr of ball, clubs etc. It does a good job for sure however it will not know the difference between a ProV1 or a Molitar golf ball. In that sense you can fine tune the sim. i have done some tweaking with the limited flight balls and am awaiting the Protee folks to update with some tweaking additions hopefully soon.

[blackfire]

Am I right or we are pretty much talking about distance tweaking?

what about left or right offset from aiming line?

[bubba22]

Left and right I am happy with although I think there will be a spin factor added in the next few weeks. The tweaking is really there for those that want to fine tune their sim if they want. Mostly for distance for me.

Hey lets keep the topic on here about the custom play golf.

[ZMax]

What do you mean exactly by "with everyone of them so far, the ball flight was not accurate and needed to be tweaked" what tweaking are you talking about?

Diastance, Do you think that launch angle measument there would be less tweaking to do?

Dude, where have you been?

I'll answer you question in the GGS thread.

[ZMax]

I'm not so sure that the Protee Golf 2.0 can be put in the same category as the P3pro virtual courses and GSA courses. The courses themselves are the same, aside from the updates, but the Protee Golf 2.0 doesn't have an interface. It looks just like PC CustomPlayGolf2010 game. It seems to have been written for the Protee 2.0 hardware.

[rdh]

I think you may be looking at the PC golf game that ProTee markets. They have two software packages - their simulation software, and their PC Game (which, yes, is more or less the same thing as the CustomPlay Golf game).

[ZMax]

I think you may be looking at the PC golf game that ProTee markets. They have two software packages - their simulation software, and their PC Game (which, yes, is more or less the same thing as the CustomPlay Golf game).

Yes, I know, but my point was that their simulation software is basically their pc game minus the golfers and the swing meter.

[ZMax]

Martin tells me that an update is coming from Red Chain in about two weeks. 1 or 2 of those changes might have been from my requests. Anybody heard anything from Red Chain?

[rdh]

I'm in regular contact with Dean at Red Chain, but normally just with respect to changes that I have requested myself.

What requests have you sent through ZMax? I'll look forward to seeing what comes through.

I was considering the E6 software, and may still look at doing it this fall, but I'm honestly more inclined to stick with GSA Golf right now. I've been in contact with the TruGolf folks and I think there are a few limitations with that software (mainly with respect to display options on the projector and a separate monitor) that have me rethinking it. Plus it's a heck of a lot of money, and I really do think GSA is very good. It may be not be at the E6 level, but it's good!

[ZMax]

I'm in regular contact with Dean at Red Chain, but normally just with respect to changes that I have requested myself.

What requests have you sent through ZMax? I'll look forward to seeing what comes through.

I was considering the E6 software, and may still look at doing it this fall, but I'm honestly more inclined to stick with GSA Golf right now. I've been in contact with the TruGolf folks and I think there are a few limitations with that software (mainly with respect to display options on the projector and a separate monitor) that have me rethinking it. Plus it's a heck of a lot of money, and I really do think GSA is very good. It may be not be at the E6 level, but it's good!

I asked for an adjustable sidespincurve factor and penalties for different terrains like rough and sand. Martin forwarded these to Dean. He told me today that he actually had to pay Red Chain for one of the requests because it was difficult to do. That didn't make any sense to me as I think these features should be in the software any way.

I'm also interested in the E6, but I would have to play with a demo first to make sure the ball flight is good and can be adjusted if not, before I would spend that kind of money. Martin said that the deal with Trugolf is done and now he is just waiting for them to finish the interface.

As you know, Red Chain is coming out this year(late?) with an updated graphics engine. Martin thinks that it should be free for current GSA users. I hope he is right. An frankly, with the current GSA software and updates being release just about every month, I'm pretty happy with GSA. An upgraded engine would be icing on the cake.

[rdh]

I had contacted TruGolf directly to ask about a demo, and today I was told they don't have one available. I also asked if there was at least an installed site near me so I could see the software, but the representative said there are none near Toronto...just one in Montreal (about 5 hours away) and another one further away in Quebec. It's a pretty big leap of faith to buy it without trying a demo first.

I know Red Chain has talked about their next-gen software, but I haven't heard whether it's actually in development or not. Honestly I'm doubtful we'll see anything in less than a couple years, but it would be great if we do. GSA is really good overall and looks good...if they get a new graphics engine out that enhances water effects and other stuff, then (like you say) that will be icing on the cake and I would regret having bought E6 if the difference becomes negligible. I'd also like to continue to support Red Chain...Dean has been great about getting enhancements in that I've requested, so I'd feel bad jumping ship for another software package.

Plus I never find time to use my simulator anyway, so this is all silly from the viewpoint of any outsider looking in.

[bubba22]

I personally like the Custom play courses. The E6 is certainly an awesome looking software but quite expensive. The thing I like about Red Chain is that they are constantly improving their software and really listening to what the folks want unlike some hardware companies.

[ZMax]

An indoor golf/family entertainment place 20 mins from me has 7 Full Swing golf bays with E6 and 70 courses. I've been meaning to go check them out. Theses simulators don't have the spin camera add-on so, the ball flight will probably not be accurate. And I don't know if they'll let me poke around in the software. I just hope their projection systems are in good shape and the image is set correctly, but I'm not holding my breath.

I'll try to go tomorrow.

[rdrunner]

Soda boy

You seem to know quite a bit about the CPG program. There is another version named Hank Haney's World of Golf. This version can be played in stereoscopic 3d.
Would you know how, from a technical point of view, they would have been able to convert CPG to stereoscopic 3d? How feasible would it be to do the same for the other CPG/gsa platforms out there?

[rdh]

Hmm...are you sure? Hank Haney's World of Golf is just a rebranded version of CustomPlay Golf for the north american market...really just a marketing move. I asked Red Chain about 3D a while back and they said it was something they were looking into, but I didn't think anything had actually been done with it. Maybe I missed something at some point...

[bubba22]

Roadrunner is there a link to where there is more info about Hank Haney World of Golf?

[ZMax]

I believe this is Nvidia software enhanced 3D? The images are on the glasses themselves right? So, I don't think this will work with a golf simulator, since you would have to look down at the ball when hitting.

What would be cool is to have 3D GSA with a passive polarized system like in the theaters. I don't think there any affordable projectors that can do this yet.

[syhlif32]

Yes it is Nvidia that has a software enhanced 3D. You will need the right Nividia card and the glasses + the transmitter.
it works on the HDMI 1.3 standard and the image is on the screen, not the glasses.
A few projectors can do this. My Viewsonic projector can do it but I do not have the glasses so can't try it out.
Most projectors that are labled 3D ready are made for the Nvidia and does not work with 3D television.

I saw it at a computer show last year. Does works with many games but there are also issues with it too. The glasses I tired was not that comfortable to wear and if you tilt the head the screen goes darker.
It might work very well for a golf similator but with the prices of the glasses I think I do not need that right now.

[rdh]

Dean from Red Chain posted an announcement on the 24 Hr Network site that they have started work on their next-generation game/graphics engine. He said it's probably a year away or more, but still...very exciting! I had been toying with looking at E6 Golf later this year, but I think I'll hold off and see how the next-gen Red Chain software looks. Fingers crossed...