Kaymer: Woods deserves more respect

[HoganWoods]

That is not even a feeble attempt at an answer. Deflection is no way to debate.

I suppose you are right, it was a lazy response...

Here goes then...

I started watching and playing golf because of Tiger Woods, straight up. Now even if he left tomorrow I would still play and watch because I love it. He has brought fans to a sport that wasn't as popular. If you deny this you are either crazy or living under a rock. I am pretty sure, all you old guys aside, there are lots more who started following this sport when Tiger exploded on the scene, just like me. Now obviously I can't prove this, this is why I stated above that it's my opinion. I don't have facts and numbers if that's what you are looking for. But neither do any of you arguying the opposite. (except for mpare post#19, which was a nice read but doesn't fully prove anything)

mpare: I agree about Arny, I love Arnold Palmer, he is the man!

[Kilroy]

I'm 33, and never in my golf-watching has Arnold Palmer been relevant as a player.

So you are 33 and only consider that which you and others your age can remember to be important. The game of Golf is over 600 years old. Some other people and circumstances have had an influence on the game in that time.

Don't you think that perhaps your perspective is somewhat lacking in scope?

[leftylucas]

Sensfan, you forget that without Armold the effect TG has would have been greatly diminished. As for fawning, there was a lot of that believe me. He was as popular with the men as with the women. He also brought Golf to the forefront and TV. Its kind of comparing Howe and Gretz, cant really do it but they both made amazing contributions to their generation

[Kilroy]

I think what we "old guys" are saying is that to you young'ns Tiger is "all that and a bag of chips". He's not. He's just a guy who plays great golf. He's not even a nice guy. Way too much credit to him and adoration of him. Just trying to keep it in perspective.

[Kilroy]

He also brought Golf to the forefront and TV.

No, that was Arnie, and it happened in the 1960's.

[sensfan63]

So you are 33 and only consider that which you and others your age can remember to be important. The game of Golf is over 600 years old. Some other people and circumstances have had an influence on the game in that time.

Don't you think that perhaps your perspective is somewhat lacking in scope?

That's not what I said. I said that in my lifetime, Arnold Palmer has not been relevant as a player. I would very much doubt that anyone my age would have been drawn to the game because of Arnold Palmer. For my generation, it's Tiger Woods. Sorry if you fail to see that, that you consider him to "only be a nice player", but that perspective ALSO lacks in scope.

[HoganWoods]

That's not what I said. I said that in my lifetime, Arnold Palmer has not been relevant as a player. I would very much doubt that anyone my age would have been drawn to the game because of Arnold Palmer. For my generation, it's Tiger Woods. Sorry if you fail to see that, that you consider him to "only be a nice player", but that perspective ALSO lacks in scope.

I agree with this statement. No one is wrong here. Arnold was the man, but now some of you need to realize that Tiger Woods has now taken over and has pushed the sport to what was back then considered unreachable proportions. Arnold did the same thing in his day as well. I think that all these Tiger threads, and these rules threads, they are mostly older generation guys, sticklers for the rules and etiquette, vs us newer generation guys with a different perspective. Kinda going off topic but... I think we need to agree to disagree.

[Break68]

I find it interesting that I have been called sad, incredibly naive, juvenile and a hater. Someone even brought up my kids and how I might interact with them, my kids are doing great by the way, thank you for asking. It seems to me people are attacking me and my posts, but yet I have only stated my feelings on Tiger Woods and the amount of respect in my opinion he has or hasn't earned.

I have not attacked anyone or anyone's posts. People should keep things in perspective.

For the record: I do not hate Tiger Woods.

I wish you all a great day!

[SkinDawg]

Worst thread I've seen in ages.

[Chambokl]

I suppose you are right, it was a lazy response...

Here goes then...

I started watching and playing golf because of Tiger Woods, straight up. Now even if he left tomorrow I would still play and watch because I love it. He has brought fans to a sport that wasn't as popular. If you deny this you are either crazy or living under a rock. I am pretty sure, all you old guys aside, there are lots more who started following this sport when Tiger exploded on the scene, just like me. Now obviously I can't prove this, this is why I stated above that it's my opinion. I don't have facts and numbers if that's what you are looking for. But neither do any of you arguying the opposite. (except for mpare post#19, which was a nice read but doesn't fully prove anything)

mpare: I agree about Arny, I love Arnold Palmer, he is the man!

Tiger means to golf as much as Michael means to the NBA. The sport was there before them but it has grown exponentially since they came on the scene. The funny thing is that the players are saying that Tiger should get more respect because THEY know what he means to the sport and to them...

By the way I am one of the old guy but I realize what Tiger and Jordan have done for their sport... The same as what Gretzky has done for hockey in the US... followed by Lemieux, Crosby, Ovy, etc...

For me one way to measure the impact of a player on his sport is by the number of magazine cover (SI, ESPN, etc...) they have...

[BC MIST]

Just my point of view. Ask any person on the planet to name a golfer and you'll get Tiger Woods 90 percent of the time. I wonder if you asked the same question 30-40 years ago if you'd even get any response at all. He's brought the game up a few notches...again in my opinion.

The question I ask you though is: if he hasn't done as much as anyone for the game, name me others who have done more.

Perhaps the question to ask first is, "How has the game itself changed, since Tiger came on the scene 15 years ago?" If you can come up with answers to that, then you may be able to find something to attribute to Tiger.

In that time equipment has changed, the ball has changed, golf course maintenance has changed, some golf instruction has changed, overall participation in golf has changed/declined, and even some of the rules have changed. None of the above are attributable to Tiger. There must be something that he has done, over and above play, to advance the game.

John Feinstein puts things in perspective in the February 7 issue of Golf World. "Anyone who has observed Woods the last year will tell he is the same person he has always been: selfish, driven, secretive and untrusting." One out of four ain't bad.

[SGH]

Perhaps the question to ask first is, "How has the game itself changed, since Tiger came on the scene 15 years ago?" If you can come up with answers to that, then you may be able to find something to attribute to Tiger.

In that time equipment has changed, the ball has changed, golf course maintenance has changed, some golf instruction has changed, overall participation in golf has changed/declined, and even some of the rules have changed. None of the above are attributable to Tiger. There must be something that he has done, over and above play, to advance the game.

John Feinstein puts things in perspective in the February 7 issue of Golf World. "Anyone who has observed Woods the last year will tell he is the same person he has always been: selfish, driven, secretive and untrusting." One out of four ain't bad.

That's fine - no one is arguing that he's not selfish, secretive or untrusting. That's not what's being discussed here. You're letting your dislike for the guy get in the way of the discussion.

Participation is easier to measure that interest; however, participation is subject to too many variables (economy, affordability, etc.). Therefore, the stats posted earlier regarding particiaption in golf pre- and post-Tiger are not shocking, but aren't convincing. Overall, are more people interested in the sport because of Tiger? Absolutely, otherwise corporations couldn't justify the appearance fees he's given. Does interest drive viewership, and consequently revenue? How could it not? How is this not contributing positively to the sport? What am I missing?

[SkinDawg]

How has the game itself changed, since Tiger came on the scene 15 years ago?"

Does anyone remember Kaymer saying that tiger woods changed the actual game of golf? Changed the rules? Changed how they developped courses?

You have started your own conversation that has nothing to do with the initial comment at this point.

[nokids]

How many golfers under 40 really know, understand, and appreciate what Arnold Palmer brought to the game?

Everyone forgets the biggest contribution he made to the under 40 crowd, he brought us Arnold Palmer Tournament Golf on Sega Genesis.

[SkinDawg]

I am still wondering why you can't just accept that Tiger has made a difference. Nobody cares what Arny did right now, because it is not what the thread was about, was it? There have been many monumental contributions to the game of golf.

[Colby]

Tiger's impact has been twofold. A lot of new players/fans are involved in the game because of watching Tiger. The second part of his influence has been on the purses of individual tournaments on the tour as well as increased appearance fees.

The increase in tournament purses has done much to line the pockets of the other professional golfers, which none of them will object to. What it has done to profesisonal golf is create multiple tiers of PGA Tour tournaments. Tournaments that Tiger was involved with became an almost "A" flight of tournaments. They were able to keep their big sponsors, keep the purses up and attract the better players. The tournaments that Tiger did not participate became a "B" flight of tournaments. Sponsors were hard to keep because of the sponsorship money that was required, the big names never came out and some of these tournaments are no longer around to the loss of millions of dollars in charities in those markets.

[leftylucas]

Everyone forgets the biggest contribution he made to the under 40 crowd, he brought us Arnold Palmer Tournament Golf on Sega Genesis.

Loved it, let Pablo bring the fun back to the discussion.

[mpare]

My reference to Arnold Palmer was not an attempt to compare his influence with Tiger's today. Rather I was trying to compare their relative influences on the game during their respective periods of dominance. With that in mind, I stand by my contention that the growth in the number of people playing golf in the decade of the 60s under Palmer's influence was substantially greater than the increase seen under Tiger's watch. Those numbers don't lie. As for the argument that Arnie's influence was inconsequential and that the post-WWII economic boom explains it all, I beg to differ. The economic boom was important, but for those of us who lived through the period there is little doubt about Arnie's (and Ike's) contributions. Keep in mind as well that the economy was pretty flush for quite a while during Tiger's period without seeing a comparable jump in individuals taking up the game.

One final point. I have never claimed that Tiger has not contributed to young people taking up the game. It would be naive of me and counter-factual to make that claim. At the same time, the numbers that I have seen suggest that his influence has not been as great or as lasting as many would suggest.

[mpare]

Your standards must be very high.

Worst thread I've seen in ages.

[Chambokl]

Perhaps the question to ask first is, "How has the game itself changed, since Tiger came on the scene 15 years ago?" If you can come up with answers to that, then you may be able to find something to attribute to Tiger.

The game change a lot... I will just give you 1 term... Tiger proofing.... I will not explain because you know exactly what it means!

Just google the word...

[nokids]

Loved it, let Pablo bring the fun back to the discussion.

I blame all those funny cartoon faces on the right side of the screen. I start writing something serious and they make me laugh.

[Eagle_Hunter]

I love the, " golf was here before Tiger and it will be fine when he's gone attitude" haha. Not one person has argued that, however, this sport would not be half as popular with the newer generation without Tiger. Incidentals or not, he has still made a huge impact (positive impact)

Tiger doesn't have to open his wallet every time and give donations to change the game of golf, he already changed a generation on how they view golf. A sport, which the average person, especially athletes never thought of it. 4 years ago all my friends laughed when I was watching golf or playing, now they are trying to learn and don't see it as " chasing a ball around ".

Growing up as an athlete playing on many teams, I can tell you first hand athletes of my generation did not think of golf as a sport whatsoever. And yes, if you ask someone around my age to name a golfer, you won't hear palmer or nicklaus unless they have been playing for a few years. My point, Tiger is the name you will hear which makes anything Nicklaus or Palmer did irrelevant to the newer to golf -younger generation.

[BC MIST]

The game change a lot... I will just give you 1 term... Tiger proofing.... I will not explain because you know exactly what it means!

I do, but the term applies to professional Tour golf, not to the golf that you and I play. Remember Kaymer's contention: ...we should be very thankful for what he's done for golf.The "we" refers to the pros and I guess he forgot "Tour" in front of golf. That would make his statement correct.

By lengthening (Tiger proofing) the courses on which Tour events are played, there is an increased probability that only the longest drivers will win, rather than those with a more balanced game and who are more skilled at hitting fairways and greens. The average golf fan may gush at a 300 yard, Tiger woods drive, but there are some of us who admire a fully swung, 40 yard, Mickelson flop shot over a bunker to a tight pin, as this shot requires more skill and guts than a bombed drive.

While the golf ball is NOT part of a player's equipment, the truth is that Tour courses were lengthened because the modern golf ball goes so much farther than its predecessors, for everyone, making 6800 to 7000 yard TOUR courses, pitch and putters. It is only coincidental that Tiger came along during this time, hence the term Tiger proofing, but it could have been anyone else during this time. Maybe even "Chambokl proofing."

From comments here, it seems many still see GOLF as only a game only played by professionals and I concede that Tiger's play has changed that aspect for sure. However, the game of golf that we ALL play remains untouched by Tiger. In recent years would you not agree that the equipment manufacturers and agronomists have done most of the changing of the game?

[Colby]

And in 25-30 years, there will be someone else that the next generation is talking about and this same arguement will take place, except that Tiger will take the place of Arnie and Jack. The same way they replaced Sam Snead, Walter Hagen, Ben Hogen, etc. There will always be a great player in every generation (Johnny Miller considers himself that) that causes that generation to stand up and take notice.

I love the, " golf was here before Tiger and it will be fine when he's gone attitude" haha. Not one person has argued that, however, this sport would not be half as popular with the newer generation without Tiger. Incidentals or not, he has still made a huge impact (positive impact)

Tiger doesn't have to open his wallet every time and give donations to change the game of golf, he already changed a generation on how they view golf. A sport, which the average person, especially athletes never thought of it. 4 years ago all my friends laughed when I was watching golf or playing, now they are trying to learn and don't see it as " chasing a ball around ".

Growing up as an athlete playing on many teams, I can tell you first hand athletes of my generation did not think of golf as a sport whatsoever. And yes, if you ask someone around my age to name a golfer, you won't hear palmer or nicklaus unless they have been playing for a few years. My point, Tiger is the name you will hear which makes anything Nicklaus or Palmer did irrelevant to the newer to golf -younger generation.

[fundonny]

Gordie to Gretz.
Russell to Jordan.
Jack/Arnie to Tiger.

The 'next' level. Next generation, there will be another.

[Chambokl]

Gordie to Gretz.
Russell to Jordan.
Jack/Arnie to Tiger.

The 'next' level. Next generation, there will be another.

Not really Donnie... In hockey if you ask oldtimer like me.. Gordie will not be the guy... Maurice Richard or is it Bobby Orr or is it Bobby Hull... there was not 1 player... but in the 80's it was Gretzky even though there was some other really good player he was Great!

In Basketball, the NBA was a fringe sport, Russel, Wilt, The Doc, etc... but when Jordan came in the league the TV rating went through the roof, basketball became the IN sport...

Tiger brought a whole new group of people to the sport. Black people were not even allowed on a lot of golf course...

[Chambokl]

By lengthening (Tiger proofing) the courses on which Tour events are played, there is an increased probability that only the longest drivers will win, rather than those with a more balanced game and who are more skilled at hitting fairways and greens. The average golf fan may gush at a 300 yard, Tiger woods drive, but there are some of us who admire a fully swung, 40 yard, Mickelson flop shot over a bunker to a tight pin, as this shot requires more skill and guts than a bombed drive.

We can discuss this all day and we will still be at the same place but it is still interesting. Technology made a big difference in golf. But before Tiger the way to play was to hit down the middle and make a nice approach and hopefully make the putt for birdie. When Tiger came in it was rip at the ball and see how far it goes... in the rough no big deal I am so close it is just a little wedge...

It made the game a lot more fun for the majority. Sorry for the purist but distance is where it is... all fun. Home run in baseball and long drive in golf... It is all about distance... and when you get older you realize that if you want to score you better start to think out there.

Remember the commercial: Chicks dig home run...

[Kilroy]

Black people were not even allowed on a lot of golf course...

Very few were still segregated in 1996. That change was pre-Tiger. Augusta National had it's first black member in 1991.

Why is it people seem so anxious to credit Tiger with everything good in golf?

BTW, just as a point of interest, Tiger is only 1/4 African American.
His father Earl was 1/2 African American, 1/4 Chinese and 1/4 Native American. His mother Kultida is 1/2 Thai, 1/4 Chinese and 1/4 Dutch. That makes Tiger Woods 1/4 African American, 1/4 Thai, 1/4 Chinese, 1/8 Native American and 1/8 Dutch. Although simply Tiger describes himself as Cablinasian.

[fundonny]

To see what Woods has brought to golf, wait another ten years when you see the kids he inspired to take up the game start playing on tour. Also, what we can't see is the inner city kids that received a chance to play thanks to his foundations. Self-serving or not, it's the result that counts not the means. He's a jack* but he's done good things.

[Break68]

Why is it people seem so anxious to credit Tiger with everything good in golf?

This is all I have been trying to say!