Harrington

[spackler]

This time Harrington. Good thing the tv viewer was able to protect the field from this blatant attempt at cheating.

http://www.golf.com/golf/tours_news/...043790,00.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=J9Bh-ZVAz48

[HoganWoods]

i know i'll probably get swarmed by some of you rules happy old timers, but isn't it a bit weird the way Padraig was disqualified?

Lets start with a quote:

“I was well aware of the fact that I touched it,” he said. “So I checked that the Titleist logo to align the ball was still in the same position pointing toward the target and was quite comfortable that the ball had not moved. "

That being said, if Padraig himself knows of the rule and doesn't think his ball moved, and he was right there with the best view obviously, is it fair to penalize him when you have to look at the replay with a zoomed TV feed to see it? Real time rules decisions aren't made in HD replays, players are out there making decisions based on what THEY can see. It wasn't a question of not knowing the rule either. I don't know, this seems ridiculous. And I know he said all the right things to the media afterwards but if he truly doesn't believe the ball moved when he was sitting over it and had to see a replay to confirm he was wrong, he can't possibly agree with this decision either.

[Kilroy]

His agreement is not required.

[HoganWoods]

It doesn't bother you that he was standing 1 foot above the ball and didn't see it move? What is he suppose to do? Remark every single ball if he has any doubt at all that it moved? His score wasn't padded in anyway by this "breach" and yet he's DQd? The rules need to be changed if officials will use replays to DQ players, or we should be relying on golfers and referees on the course to make the appropriate judging call.

[nokids]

This is getting ridiculous. Imagine if fans could call the NHL, NBA and NFL whenever a ref miss a call.

[Break68]

I will have to watch the youtube video on this one before I make a judgment, youtube and everything else is blocked here at work.

[Kilroy]

It doesn't bother you that he was standing 1 foot above the ball and didn't see it move?

Not really. Just because he didn't see it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Had he seen it he would have re-positioned it and played on without penalty. Obviously this violation happened as a result of him not being aware of what happened. Sad but that's golf.

He was not DQ'd for not replacing the ball, but for not scoring the penalty. That ONLY happens when the player is unaware of a violation.

We will now see a debate on calling in infractions as usual. The bottom line is that it IS allowed and these infractions can't be ignored for the integrity of the game and the field.

[HoganWoods]

I agree with you completely Kilroy in the sense that it's a penalty. There is no doubt. What I don't agree is the way the penalties are being called with video replay. We have trusted the golfers to know the rules and apply them to the best of their abilities for so long, now we have to nit pick with video replay and hand out DQs because obviously by the time it's seen the scorecards are signed.

[infinity13]

I remember someone on this forum stating somehting along the lines that golf is not a game of fair, but it is equitable. I completely agree with this statement.

What I am wondering is how equitable is it for different players to be exposed to different amounts of camera time, leading to their unnoticed rules violations to be picked up by spectators around the world. I agree that everyone should be held to the rules and when a violation is committed the appropriate penalty applies, however I would hazard to guess that there are rules violations commited unknowingly by others that are not caught on camera, and therefore those violations don't exist. Not to say that those not on camera cheat, but if paddy in the same situation was not on camera, nothing would have came of it as he assessed in the split second he had that the ball came back to its original position, therfore no rules were violated.

I am not sure if my point is coming across, but i think reading this will give you the just of what I am trying to say.

[Swerve]

I try to stay out of these rules discussions, but I will make one comment about this one: how could he not see his ball move? After watching the YouTube video I was surprised how obvious it was that, even in full speed, his ball definitely moved? Being a professional, I also can't believe he didn't error on the side of caution and replace the ball.

Remind me again, if he had replaced the ball to the original spot, does he take a penalty for accidentally hitting it? I don't think so? So there is no reason not to be better safe than sorry and just re-mark the ball properly.

[HoganWoods]

If the player can't see the ball move while sitting right there it doesn't matter if its obvious to us on replay. We've all lined up putts and some times things can be deceiving. He can't help the fact that he didn't see it. The only other possible explanation is that he's lying, which I doubt.

[nokids]

What I am wondering is how equitable is it for different players to be exposed to different amounts of camera time, leading to their unnoticed rules violations to be picked up by spectators around the world.

I think it evens out in the end. Big time players have the disadvantage of cameras following them around. But they also have some advantages, like Tiger's army of groupies willing to move giant rocks for him.

[Break68]

http://www.golf.com/golf/tours_news/...043807,00.html

Here is a long article explaining the whole thing, insane if you ask me. Rules are rules.

[spackler]

Add the penalty to his score, add a stroke or two for signing an incorrect scorecard as a deterrent against cheating, and be done with it. This is stupid.

[Kilroy]

add a stroke or two for signing an incorrect scorecard.

That would be pretty huge to change that. Signing a scorecard with a lower score than played must render the round invalid don't you think?

[Shivas Irons]

What I am wondering is how equitable is it for different players to be exposed to different amounts of camera time, leading to their unnoticed rules violations to be picked up by spectators around the world.

Good point.

Regardless of what the rules state, IMO the punishment in this case far exceeds the 'crime'

[Kiwi]

Here we go again... http://www.thegolfchannel.com/tour-i...ce-ball-41138/

I agree with those posting comments, attached to this article, that the rules "calls" should be made on the course inside the ropes. I think the comment that the uneven, therefore unfair, tv coverage works against some of the players... IMHO

[nokids]

Merged in 3, 2, 1, ...........

[atomic]

He broke a rule, didn't take the correct penalty, signed the wrong scorecard and was dq'ed.

Harrington should have known better. His comments make it sound like he knew that he did something wrong at the time, but hoped it wouldn't be noticed. Players know that their every move is being scrutinized in HD. They should act accordingly.

I don't think that this is any different from the NHL going to Toronto to "the war room" for video replays.

[spackler]

Merged in 3, 2, 1, ...........

Blast off!

[spackler]

That would be pretty huge to change that. Signing a scorecard with a lower score than played must render the round invalid don't you think?

No, not when it is inadvertent.

[HoganWoods]

He broke a rule, didn't take the correct penalty, signed the wrong scorecard and was dq'ed.

Harrington should have known better. His comments make it sound like he knew that he did something wrong at the time, but hoped it wouldn't be noticed. Players know that their every move is being scrutinized in HD. They should act accordingly.

I don't think that this is any different from the NHL going to Toronto to "the war room" for video replays.

He should of known better? You must be right, lets slot him in for some laser eye surgery. You know the kind right? The new Slow Motion High definition enabled laser eye correction kind. That should resolve the problem, we should fix him right up.

[quinner]

He broke a rule, didn't take the correct penalty, signed the wrong scorecard and was dq'ed.

Harrington should have known better. His comments make it sound like he knew that he did something wrong at the time, but hoped it wouldn't be noticed. Players know that their every move is being scrutinized in HD. They should act accordingly.

I don't think that this is any different from the NHL going to Toronto to "the war room" for video replays.

First off he didn't think that the ball had moved so he clearly wasn't trying to cheat the game. To accuse someone for trying to cheat, particularly a well respected professional player is a ballsy statement. As quoted earlier, he said he knew he had touched it, but didn't realize that it had moved as he even checked it.

Going to a replay at the very moment their is a question about a call in hockey, has absolutely no similarities to this incident. To be remotely close they would have had to review the penalty when it had happened to right after the round before he signed his scorecard. Please do not compare this to a replay review in any other pro sports because there is absolutely no relation. Golfers are in charge of "reffing" themselves; every other sport has a third party making judgment calls.

I don't like it, but it's the way it is.

[Break68]

I finally got to watch the video. Insanity, the rules official said it rolled forward 3 dimples and rolled back 1.5 dimples, come on. I read that part on golf.com. This is making a mockery of the game.
I hope Padraig enjoyed the long flight and the 3 days of practice he now has.
Stupid rule in this case.

[BC MIST]

It is a rule in golf that before any penalty is added to a player's score, that information from all available sources be considered to ensure fair application of the rules. This includes any TV coverage.

Padrig knew that the ball moved. He indicated that it moved forward "3 dimples" and moved back less than that. IF he was unsure, he could have played out the hole with that ball and then invoked 3-3 and played a second ball from where he felt the original spot was, wishing to score with it, if the ball was proven later NOT to move. Even if the spots from which both balls were played were wrong, (20-7, 2 stroke penalty) he would have known.The worst penalty he would have been assessed was 2 strokes and probably only 1, and he would have also known that before he signed his card. As Padrig is known to have a good knowledge of the rules, he should have done the obvious.

It must also be understood that Rule 18-2a applies to ALL situations in golf, where the ball is moved by the player, whether advertently or inadvertently, whether moved "3 dimples" or 3 feet, or done by Padrig or Matilda. The idea that we should be allowed a subjective call of "no harm - no foul, no penalty," opens the game up to some taking significant advantage.

Any comparison between golf and NHL, NBA et al, is totally meaningless. In team sports there is a necessity to call fouls/penalties immediately, for painfully obvious reasons, whereas in golf, the player has until he signs his card to get it right. What some here fail to understand is that there is a "code of honour" in golf that says, play by the rules, call penalties on yourself, and ensure that others do the same. There is also a rule that says, "It is the responsibility of the players to know the rules." IF the players actually did this, this and other discussions would not take place. The way in which the rules of golf are applied, will NOT work for hockey, and the way in which the rules of hockey are applied, will never work for golf.

[Big Johnny69]

It is a rule in golf that before any penalty is added to a player's score, that information from all available sources be considered to ensure fair application of the rules. This includes any TV coverage.

Padrig knew that the ball moved. He indicated that it moved forward "3 dimples" and moved back less than that. IF he was unsure, he could have played out the hole with that ball and then invoked 3-3 and played a second ball from where he felt the original spot was, wishing to score with it, if the ball was proven later NOT to move. Even if the spots from which both balls were played were wrong, (20-7, 2 stroke penalty) he would have known.The worst penalty he would have been assessed was 2 strokes and probably only 1, and he would have also known that before he signed his card. As Padrig is known to have a good knowledge of the rules, he should have done the obvious.

It must also be understood that Rule 18-2a applies to ALL situations in golf, where the ball is moved by the player, whether advertently or inadvertently, whether moved "3 dimples" or 3 feet, or done by Padrig or Matilda. The idea that we should be allowed a subjective call of "no harm - no foul, no penalty," opens the game up to some taking significant advantage.

Any comparison between golf and NHL, NBA et al, is totally meaningless. In team sports there is a necessity to call fouls/penalties immediately, for painfully obvious reasons, whereas in golf, the player has until he signs his card to get it right. What some here fail to understand is that there is a "code of honour" in golf that says, play by the rules, call penalties on yourself, and ensure that others do the same. There is also a rule that says, "It is the responsibility of the players to know the rules." IF the players actually did this, this and other discussions would not take place. The way in which the rules of golf are applied, will NOT work for hockey, and the way in which the rules of hockey are applied, will never work for golf.

I believe there is a strong comparison between golf and any other professional sport. And the way rules are applied in hockey, football, etc would work in golf if they actually supplied rules officials to call infractions on players at the time they occurred, if the player happens to be unaware of what they did.

This way there would never be a need for Johnny-Know-It-All sitting on his couch at home to call in something on tv he believes to be a rules infraction.

This is all I am going to say on this.

[goochy]

This is getting ridiculous. Imagine if fans could call the NHL, NBA and NFL whenever a ref miss a call.

Pointless comparison mate...those sports (along with a host of others) do absolutely nothing to uphold the integrity of the rules...In fact, many involved in those sports go out of their way to circumvent the rules and get away with whatever they can. They are also of a completely different nature to golf. Most sports (like those you name) are fast moving and continuous. Golf, by its very nature of being slow, stop start and with a score not tallied till the end lends itself much more to scrutiny.

Personally, while I often feel sympathy for the players involved I have absolutely no problem with spectators, fellow players, TV viewers etc calling in infractions. It makes no difference to the facts...a rule was broken or it wasn't.

[Kilroy]

Personally, while I often feel sympathy for the players involved I have absolutely no problem with spectators, fellow players, TV viewers etc calling in infractions. It makes no difference to the facts...a rule was broken or it wasn't.

Well said.

[Big Johnny69]

Pointless comparison mate...those sports (along with a host of others) do absolutely nothing to uphold the integrity of the rules...In fact, many involved in those sports go out of their way to circumvent the rules and get away with whatever they can. They are also of a completely different nature to golf. Most sports (like those you name) are fast moving and continuous. Golf, by its very nature of being slow, stop start and with a score not tallied till the end lends itself much more to scrutiny.

Personally, while I often feel sympathy for the players involved I have absolutely no problem with spectators, fellow players, TV viewers etc calling in infractions. It makes no difference to the facts...a rule was broken or it wasn't.

Again, you can compare golf to other sports if you let fans/spectators call infractions. And are you trying to tell me there aren't some golfers out there checking over their shoulder before they try to circumvent a rule??? Regardless of the "nature" of the game, this is these guy's livelyhood, they are professionals and in no way should Joe Public have any influence on the outcome of any tournament. Put a RO/Referee with every group who has the ability to call infractions and make a player aware of it so we don't have these ridiculous post-round disqualifications.

BTW, all professional athletes are supposed to know the rules to which sport they are playing, but they still have referees......something to think about.

**I know I said I was done, but I just had to**

[Chambokl]

What some here fail to understand is that there is a "code of honour" in golf that says, play by the rules, call penalties on yourself, and ensure that others do the same. There is also a rule that says, "It is the responsibility of the players to know the rules."

But you are missing the point... Harrington did know the rule... he made an assesment and said there was no penalty on the play. The "Code of Honour" that you mention says: "I made an inform decision and this is my verdict".... why don't we respect his decision, we think the ball has move way too much for our liking... for Padraig it was OK....