GC2 - Something New is Coming

[bubba22]

Do review for sure.

Blackfire you should pm js1010 http://forum.ottawagolf.com/showthread.php?t=57186 . He has a GC2 and raves about it.

[stevnkrn]

From what I was told by rep. for Foresight Sports was the GC2 unit had comparable stats to the doppler units in an outdoor testing.

Thanks for that information. Unfortunately I've heard a lot of accuracy claims from pretty much every simulator company. I'm a "well seasoned" Mechanical Engineer so it takes some compelling data for me to become a believer. If the GC2 really does what is claimed it would take a 10 minute video to prove it to everyone. It is easier to do with the GC2 because it can be used outdoors. Seems pretty straight forward to me. I wish it was this easy to compare real and projected data in my work life. I can only assume there is enough of a difference between the real and device displayed data that Foresight is reluctant to present it. Maybe it's already available and I just haven't found it. I really want to be a believer, but I need real data.

[stevnkrn]

Do review for sure.

Blackfire you should pm js1010 http://forum.ottawagolf.com/showthread.php?t=57186 . He has a GC2 and raves about it.

bubba22, thanks for pointing me to this thread on the GC2. I don't know how I missed it, but I did.

[bubba22]

Well I think for indoor/outdoor simulation, you probably are not going to get much better than the GC2. For pure outdoor analysis on the range I suspect the Dopler based systems are better. Pure indoor simulation then the fixed camera based like the Sportscoach, HD Golf, Golfatron, About golf are probably the best however they carry a very hefty price tag. It would be nice to validate most simulators however that may never happen for a variety of reasons. I do agree however that the GC2 could easily put out a video showing the ball flight in real time and resulting data to compare. Maybe they do have something?

[bubba22]

No problem stevnkrn.

[ZMax]

If I spent that kind of money on a golf simulator, it better cook me dinner because I won't have a wife anymore.


On a serious note, the GC2 will measure ball path +-1 deg. With the cameras looking from the side, how does it do it accurately? Super duper software?

[stevnkrn]

If I spent that kind of money on a golf simulator, it better cook me dinner because I won't have a wife anymore.


On a serious note, the GC2 will measure ball path +-1 deg. With the cameras looking from the side, how does it do it accurately? Super duper software?

ZMax, you're right. The GC2 costs a LOT of money. If I pop for the GC2, or any new simulator I want to make sure it has the accuracy to justify the cost. There are many simulators that are very good and significantly less expensive. As I mentioned previously I've had a P3Pro for years. I can and have had fun with it. For this kind of money the only thing any simulator can offer me is realism.

I don't know the exact technology Foresight uses but I believe there are several technologies that could measure distance from the device at enough points along the flight path to calculate a ball path angle. Incidentally, 1 degree at 250 yards is a little over four yards of tolerance range. At 100 yards that equates to about 5 feet. If it's true I personally could live with that.

[blackfire]

ZMax, you're right. The GC2 costs a LOT of money. If I pop for the GC2, or any new simulator I want to make sure it has the accuracy to justify the cost. There are many simulators that are very good and significantly less expensive. As I mentioned previously I've had a P3Pro for years. I can and have had fun with it. For this kind of money the only thing any simulator can offer me is realism.

I don't know the exact technology Foresight uses but I believe there are several technologies that could measure distance from the device at enough points along the flight path to calculate a ball path angle. Incidentally, 1 degree at 250 yards is a little over four yards of tolerance range. At 100 yards that equates to about 5 feet. If it's true I personally could live with that.

Exactly I personally could also live with that.

all the SIM(pro7, GGS and protee are mesuring side angle at +/- 1 degree) the difference is that GC2 is measuring spin instead of calculating it witch is a lot better.

to measure side angle the system measures the size of the ball if closer the ball get bigger and vice versa. same thing as VECTOR PRO but with a lot more photo so more accurate side angle and ball spin.

[bubba22]

I think we are all in agreement that the GC2 is a good machine. Again, the cost is really the issue for most.

[blackfire]

Yes your right but for me I prefer wait a bit more as I aleready have a P3Pro and go straight for GC2 then go for GGS, pro7 or protee and not be satisfied.

As GC2 is the only one really accurately measuring pall path and spin for my self it's the only way to have a accurate ball flight calculation and simulation.

until then I am learning on my swing with my P3Pro but not playing on the courses as I don't trust the ball flight calculation

[js1010]

Lots of GC2 talk - here is some more info for those contemplating.

Overall I am very happy with it. Other than the lack of Clubhead data, currently and the left / right thing – this unit is really great – it simple and just works, and very rarely does it not recognize a shot - What I mean by this is if it didn’t get enough images to be able to do its thing it will tell you – “I didn’t see the shot”. I believe the unit can take up to 10 or so images during impact and then uses all of them in deriving its launch numbers. I believe there is a minimum number of images that it needs to take otherwise it will tell you it didn’t see the shot. I would say this happens 1 in every few hundred shots - other than that it catches every imaginable shot. The other thing about the GC2 is it produces it numbers fast - no waiting. You hit a shot and the ball takes off on the screen - realism of the sim is really good.

I agree with bubba that outdoors you can’t beat trackman as it tracks the ball almost the whole way while any camera based system would have to do a calculation for distance. This calculation is using certain variables to do so.

Temperature, Humidity, Altitude, wind would affect how far a ball flies in real life – so I don’t think a calculation is going to be as spot on as trackman outdoors. I was talking to them about letting us input (temp, altitude, etc) information so that their algorithm would use the numbers of our specific environment in to the distance and offline calculation, or even better a sensor that read in all this info and used it dynamically.

Indoors, however – I think the GC2 is probably up there with the best of them because they all have to calculate distances so it’s a matter of how good the measured numbers are.

My thought process when choosing the GC2 vs sensor based units was I figured that measured launch numbers and a distance calculation was better than a sensor unit trying to determine the launch numbers from the Club Path, where on the club face the ball hit (groove high or low – heel or toe), angle of attack. To me trying to figure out what the spin rates are based on this and then try to compute a distance just can’t be as accurate. - but in the end – I don’t know what the difference is as I have not been able to play around with other Simulators - so I don’t know for sure if it’s worth the extra money. I know that I am very happy with the flight I get now – I am a decent golfer and have hit thousands of shots since I got it.

The only issue with Foresight integration with the software currently is that the distance calculation differs if you are using the unit itself or with the Red Chain Software.

When the Gc2 is used outdoors or on its own it uses its own algorithm for calculation of distance. When plugged in to the Red Chain software it just feeds the measured launch numbers to the software which then it does the distance and offline calculation. The distance numbers when hitting drivers with the Red Chain software is not that good – distances are a short. Foresight know of this and they have told me that Red Chain is using an older algorithm to calculate distance that is not talking into account the lower spin drivers and balls used these days.

They are supposed to release an update this month that will use their algorithm for everything – so they will feed Red Chain all the numbers and they will just render the flight. They have also said that this update will include tweaks to the algorithm based on robot and trackman testing. Maybe this is where these new accuracy numbers are coming from. I still doubt < 1 yard from 100. I would be happy with <3 from 100 and <6 from 300.

Really excited to get this update to see what they have done.

[blackfire]

Tanks js1010,

I fully agree with you and think exacty the same about GC2.

I've had a GGS sensor pad and I now have a P3Pro and the p3pro is more accurate to mesure club data for me as it as tappe but still not happy for a lot's of reasons

1- no ball data
2- I hate tapping my club I'm ending playing only a few of my clubs
3- hard surface to hit form
4- 11 feet garage not giving me enough space to play bolt left and right golfer with a fix system.
5- the surface been so hard I tend to swing differently then I am in real play.
6- can't realy have fun playing when you can't rely on the ball flight

All that together I'm going for the GC2 with realistic turf mat and will add courses and club cam later on.

plannign to buy my GC2 in august hope so(money)

thanks again for your review

[ZMax]

The only issue with Foresight integration with the software currently is that the distance calculation differs if you are using the unit itself or with the Red Chain Software.

When the Gc2 is used outdoors or on its own it uses its own algorithm for calculation of distance. When plugged in to the Red Chain software it just feeds the measured launch numbers to the software which then it does the distance and offline calculation. The distance numbers when hitting drivers with the Red Chain software is not that good – distances are a short. Foresight know of this and they have told me that Red Chain is using an older algorithm to calculate distance that is not talking into account the lower spin drivers and balls used these days.

They are supposed to release an update this month that will use their algorithm for everything – so they will feed Red Chain all the numbers and they will just render the flight. They have also said that this update will include tweaks to the algorithm based on robot and trackman testing. Maybe this is where these new accuracy numbers are coming from. I still doubt < 1 yard from 100. I would be happy with <3 from 100 and <6 from 300.

Really excited to get this update to see what they have done.

Well, I see that the P3pro isn't the only folks with GSA integration issues.

[bubba22]

As RDH always says, the accurracy of any sim depends upon how well it can capture ball and club data as well as what it does with that data (algorythms etc). For distance at least most GSA/Custom Play/Red Chain products have a distance boost.

[js1010]

Yes, I do have boost in my version of the software as well - but this doesn't really work correctly because the iron distances are pretty good just drivers are a bit short so adjusting this up would screw up the irons.

What I have been doing if I am practicing my driver and want to get accurate numbers - I will turn on the audio for the GC2 and it will speak out all the numbers after each shot.

I am confident they will get this going per my last conversation with them. They are planning to release this update for the show as well. Difficulty for them has been trying to implement this in a way to not give up their algorithm is what I was told.

Outside of this algorithm integration issue I don't see any others, really - my other requests to them have been general updates to the REd Chain software to improve game play. Ie: Showing me more distances to harzards, bunkers, front, center, back distances on approach shots, etc. THey have been slow to react on these kind of software feature requests as I think they have all there engineers in lock down working on the club head data stuff.

we shall see in a few weeks..

[bubba22]

Nothing is perfect. Hopefully they will make some changes.

[pboon]

Yes your right but for me I prefer wait a bit more as I aleready have a P3Pro and go straight for GC2 then go for GGS, pro7 or protee and not be satisfied.

As GC2 is the only one really accurately measuring pall path and spin for my self it's the only way to have a accurate ball flight calculation and simulation.

until then I am learning on my swing with my P3Pro but not playing on the courses as I don't trust the ball flight calculation

I do not know how GC2 uses their ball data into course software, but I would assume the ball response in my opinion seems to be the driving factor in reproducing real golfing. Club path is more for educational application. I just don't see how using club information gives you accuracy over ball info for a course simulation perspective.

[js1010]

Not sure I get what all the issues with P3PRo integration are with GSA- basically P3Pro just need to pass their launch data to Red Chain and let them do their thing. Red Chain obviously has many different hardware systems integrated already – find it hard to believe they are technical issues at this point.

[js1010]

To calculate flight you need

Ball Speed
Launch Angle
Azimuth (Horizontal Ball Bath)
Back Spin
Side Spin

Along with the environmental variables – Temp, Humidity,Altitude, WInd etc.

The above are what GC2 currently passes to the Red Chain Software - I would assume the sensor based units derive that same parameters using their own calculations based on Club Face and Path and pass those on to Red chain. I guess it is possible that the sensor units pass the club path, and face angle and maybe Red Chain has its own algorithm to produce flight based on this kind of data as well – this I don’t know.

[ZMax]

Not sure I get what all the issues with P3PRo integration are with GSA- basically P3Pro just need to pass their launch data to Red Chain and let them do their thing. Red Chain obviously has many different hardware systems integrated already – find it hard to believe they are technical issues at this point.

Exactly, P3pro says it's a technical issue, while Martin at GGS/GSA says it's not.

[pboon]

To calculate flight you need

Ball Speed
Launch Angle
Azimuth (Horizontal Ball Bath)
Back Spin
Side Spin

Along with the environmental variables – Temp, Humidity,Altitude, WInd etc.

The above are what GC2 currently passes to the Red Chain Software - I would assume the sensor based units derive that same parameters using their own calculations based on Club Face and Path and pass those on to Red chain. I guess it is possible that the sensor units pass the club path, and face angle and maybe Red Chain has its own algorithm to produce flight based on this kind of data as well – this I don’t know.

The ball information captured by GC2 and passes to RCS to make calculations does makes sense. Other simulators using club data to interpret ball information using algorithms maybe pretty good representation but I would assume raw data from what a ball is doing would be even more accurate.

For example a sandwedge, someone using sq. grooves versus U versus no grooves(remember the tigershark triplecrown wedge using dimple grooves?) , then you get someone using pro v1, topflight xl or balata, you end up requiring more data that must be inputted to create an algorithm have to have better data. I see GC2 and these doppler units overcoming that barrier. However with the GC2 unit, at least you can use it indoors at get an accurate representation (from what they claim based on flightscope and trackman outdoor testing) what your may be doing outdoors minus environmental factors. That's of course if you have a sim that allows you to stop real balls.

Forgot to add, how do you club information also account for MOI/smash factor because there are real life differences using Titanium driver versus Carbon fiber vs a Taylormade TP Burner? I just say measure ball data instead of interpreting club algorithms and you'll have a realistic sim...

[bubba22]

I agree pboon. i think that the sims with pure club data may not be as accurate. The sensor based sims with ball and club data (GSA/ProTee/Golftek) do account for the ball direction, speed and launch while spin is estimated. I agree that camera info from the GC2 is awesome but given the jump in price, the question is can one afford it. I think the GC2 is a real accurate unit however if you speak with the folks at HD golf or About Golf they would tell you that the GC2 is not as accurate as their units and will give you the technical reasons behind that, whether its true or not. Again their units are 40 grand and probably shouldn't be compared with the GC2. At the end of the day one should be happy with the accuracy of whatever sim they have and really as important as accuracy is the consistency and reproducability of the sim measurements and eventual simulation. If you are happy with the dd then stay with it.

[blackfire]

I may not be right but what I know it that Golftek as done some test with a robot so you can rely on what accuracy they're saying they are.

GGS and protee as not done testing in any way with robot or any other external or private compagny. so you can't realy know if they're just talking or not.

Yes sportscoatch, about golf and HD will be more accurate. they are fixed and calibrated when the GC2 is movable and if your not perfectly square with the unit then you get bad side angle result. Plus they're camera as one at the ceiling witch make them more accurate on the side angle and side angle is extremely important as 1 degree gives almos 3 yards at 150 yards.

But for me and my playing level 9 feet at 150 yards is accurate enough. But for a pro or for a 0 handicap who can control is ball within 1 yards then you goe a go with fix cam if you whant real accurate ball flight calculation.

and still there's humidity, wind, atmospheric presure hard or soke fairway and bla bla bla.

[blackfire]

and an other thing is that we must never forget that at least 50% of the game is chipping, pitching and putting

[rdh]

To calculate flight you need

Ball Speed
Launch Angle
Azimuth (Horizontal Ball Bath)
Back Spin
Side Spin

Along with the environmental variables – Temp, Humidity,Altitude, WInd etc.

The above are what GC2 currently passes to the Red Chain Software - I would assume the sensor based units derive that same parameters using their own calculations based on Club Face and Path and pass those on to Red chain. I guess it is possible that the sensor units pass the club path, and face angle and maybe Red Chain has its own algorithm to produce flight based on this kind of data as well – this I don’t know.

In response to this... Yes, for my integration to GSA Golf I just feed in the club data and ball data (speed, azimuth, launch angle) and the red chain software calculates the ball flight from that.

[bubba22]

I do not disagree. My point is that the decision to buy a simulator is a personal one based on desire and cost. The accuracy whether or not there is robotic testing will really never be known. I think that the GC2 would be my choice but much too expensive. If the ProTee gives me the accuracy as well as launch then I am sold. I personally want something just for home as my home course has several Flightscope that can be used at the range. Having said that I do think that the people that can make that jump to afford the GC2 should do so because I think you are getting a great product.

[bubba22]

I agree Blackfire. I am not convinced that any sim will really improve my chipping and putting. In fact in my basement I have an aarea that I can chip (with simulated fairway and rough) as well as putt. That practice is much more realistic than the sim. Now for ball striking and game simulation, you can't beat the simulators.

[pboon]

I may not be right but what I know it that Golftek as done some test with a robot so you can rely on what accuracy they're saying they are.

GGS and protee as not done testing in any way with robot or any other external or private compagny. so you can't realy know if they're just talking or not.

Yes sportscoatch, about golf and HD will be more accurate. they are fixed and calibrated when the GC2 is movable and if your not perfectly square with the unit then you get bad side angle result. Plus they're camera as one at the ceiling witch make them more accurate on the side angle and side angle is extremely important as 1 degree gives almos 3 yards at 150 yards.

But for me and my playing level 9 feet at 150 yards is accurate enough. But for a pro or for a 0 handicap who can control is ball within 1 yards then you goe a go with fix cam if you whant real accurate ball flight calculation.

and still there's humidity, wind, atmospheric presure hard or soke fairway and bla bla bla.

That's interesting. I wonder how you calibrate to make sure your square? Maybe GC2 should come with a projected laser plumline or target, just like you see with workshop tools such as we see with miter saws. Then again if you add this option, it might be hard to pick the line up outdoors. Plus a GC2 could be annoying to have at a range if you plan to hit balls on real turf and your ripping a divot every time. Probably best to be on artificial turf. Shoot, might as well hit indoors if your gonna do that.

I rather not spend the 40K and just bolt a GC2 down to concrete and mark some lines on a mat.

[blackfire]

I agree with you also,

Protee is probably the choice I would've made if my budget would've been around 5000$ and I realy think that it's accurate.

But like we've been talking, I can afford the GC2 I just have to be alitle bit more patiente as I will have to wait 3 or 4 months more just for the unit and an other 3 to 4 months for software and 15 courses and an other year for the club cam add on and an other 20 courses.

I'm welling to wait more but again some people would never be able to get that mutch money and then yes protee is a very good choice as well.

[pboon]

and an other thing is that we must never forget that at least 50% of the game is chipping, pitching and putting

damn...I forgot about that part of golf. Its probably why I can never score/scramble low. Oh well, I'll just try to force myself to make all approach shots within gimmie range. That's the whole point of getting using a sim right?

Just throw in an full size indoor chipping and putting facility for another 10K an we are about done. I just need a jackhammer so I can put some holes into the concrete to make some cups.