GGS/GSA Simulator

[mmlincon]

You can use the mat to trigger the club cam, but you will get reflections off the sensor slots if you have the acrylic top. I tried this and since you have to mark your clubs and the reflections were a pain I pretty much gave up with it. If you want to use a club cam I think you're better off with the single sensor setup.

To use the sand/rough panels I think you need the camera and trigger array since you won't be hitting from the mat. If you have enough space between the mat and ball sensor then it might work. Is that ball sensor something like the MX tracks at GGS?

[mmlincon]

Oh, I forgot to mention the spin. Hitting from different surfaces didn't seem to impact the spin at all. It seemed to be calculated by the club(loft) and club head speed.

Another thing. With ProX/GGS systems you should check the loft on the wedges. The defaults were different than what I play. I think this will have more of an effect on spin with my setup since I have the V cam, but if you don't have that I'm sure there is more of an effect.

[ZMax]

You can use the mat to trigger the club cam, but you will get reflections off the sensor slots if you have the acrylic top. I tried this and since you have to mark your clubs and the reflections were a pain I pretty much gave up with it. If you want to use a club cam I think you're better off with the single sensor setup.

To use the sand/rough panels I think you need the camera and trigger array since you won't be hitting from the mat. If you have enough space between the mat and ball sensor then it might work. Is that ball sensor something like the MX tracks at GGS?

No, it's an old NT ball track I think. Martin made these 5 years ago.

Here's where I'm still confused.


Sensor array trigger
When using the sensor array trigger, the ball - instead of the club - activates the trigger no matter where you have hit the shot from.
You are thus not confined to hitting balls just from the sensor mat. Putting just requires you to place the ball anywhere behind the sensor array.

If the ball is activating the trigger array, how does the club cam capture the club face at impact? I think you have to trigger the club cam before impact, by using the sensor mat or single sensor. But then, how would it work with sand/rough panels?

Or is the club cam not used when hitting from other surfaces? Club face estimated from ball flight?

[ZMax]

I just found the answer at the GGS sit. This is from the camera page. System 5 is the all camera system.

System 5. Ccam + Hcam + Vcam + Bcam: Quad cameras - club and ball tracking with ball spin

Data captured: Ball speed, path and launch angle, Club-face angle at impact to ball, club path and speed, ball spin and spin axis tilt
Comes complete with sensor trigger array & FiberBuilt trigger hitting mat
This configuration is for the most demanding of players.

[bubba22]

So for that setup with 4 cams you have to hit from a set spot? As well you have to mark the club and the ball?

[ZMax]

So for that setup with 4 cams you have to hit from a set spot? As well you have to mark the club and the ball?

Looks like it.

Sort of defeats the purpose of having an all camera setup, but it'll make for a very accurate system.

[ovl]

my you are interessted in the pricing of GSA System!

[mmlincon]

Zmax
"Or is the club cam not used when hitting from other surfaces? Club face estimated from ball flight? " This is exactly what happens when hitting from a spot other than the sensor mat

[ZMax]

Zmax
"Or is the club cam not used when hitting from other surfaces? Club face estimated from ball flight? " This is exactly what happens when hitting from a spot other than the sensor mat

Have you tried this? I guess if your spin camera is accurate and consistent, you can get away with not using a club cam.

[mmlincon]

Yes, I don't have to hit shots from the sensor mat. I often hit short chip shots from the area in front of the mat which seems to improve the accuracy. ie. if I have the toe down and heel up on the club - this just messes with the mat.

No spin cam at this point - waiting on a new ball sensor from Martin. I think it determines everything based on ball speed/launch and direction when not hitting from the mat.

[ZMax]

Yes, I don't have to hit shots from the sensor mat. I often hit short chip shots from the area in front of the mat which seems to improve the accuracy. ie. if I have the toe down and heel up on the club - this just messes with the mat.

No spin cam at this point - waiting on a new ball sensor from Martin. I think it determines everything based on ball speed/launch and direction when not hitting from the mat.

I see. So, for normal shots, you would need a spin cam to determine side spin since you won't have club data when hitting outside the sensor mat?

I'm ordering GSA and ProX today.

Even with your LA camera, are you still having a hard time keeping the ball from rolling too much when coming out of a bunker? And is the ball flight high enough?

I've been looking through clubspecs and GSA interterface settings and I think there might be a way to get the ball to stop quickly on the green. Are you available to try some things?

[mmlincon]

Most shots that are not hit from sensor mat are probably going to be pretty soft unless you have a "sand" mat. I think everything is guestimated based on ball speed/launch and direction. I pretty much hit everything from the mat unless it's a short chip or a putt of course. For full shots I would think you would need either the mat or a club cam to get any realistic data.

I can get shots to stop pretty well and yes they launch high enough. My limit is about 50 degrees with my setup. Much higher than that and I start hitting the ceiling and the angle gets missed in the camera view. Since I don't have a sand mat I can't really use a sand technique to launch a nice high soft shot though.

I'd be happy to try some settings, but I don't know if I'll get to it for a few days.

[ZMax]

I can get shots to stop pretty well and yes they launch high enough. My limit is about 50 degrees with my setup. Much higher than that and I start hitting the ceiling and the angle gets missed in the camera view. Since I don't have a sand mat I can't really use a sand technique to launch a nice high soft shot though.

I'd be happy to try some settings, but I don't know if I'll get to it for a few days.

That's OK. I'll just wait until I get GSA.

Thanks for answering all my questions.

[ZMax]

mmlincon,

Where are you? Kinda miss you around here.

I'm patiently waiting for the UPS guy to drop of my GSA courses. In a few hours...

I guess I could be working on my ball sensor while I wait.

[mmlincon]

I've just been busy working on my swing which seems horrid of late for whatever reason.


On another note. I was looking over the ProX site and it does look like there is a V cam solution where you don't need the ball track. You just place the cam closer to the mat and set a longer shutter time. This won't really give you direction, but that can be estimated from the club face angle. Haven't tried this, but it should work. With that setup you'd just need the mat and one camera.

[ZMax]

I've just been busy working on my swing which seems horrid of late for whatever reason.


On another note. I was looking over the ProX site and it does look like there is a V cam solution where you don't need the ball track. You just place the cam closer to the mat and set a longer shutter time. This won't really give you direction, but that can be estimated from the club face angle. Haven't tried this, but it should work. With that setup you'd just need the mat and one camera.

Sorry to hear about your swing. Hope you get it back together.

I think the mat trigger with the V cam and my ball sensor(if I get it working), should give me a pretty good simulator.

[bubba22]

I think so as well.

[ZMax]

Installing GSA at the moment. I've already played with the GSA demo and the latest Prox. Both programs detected the Protee/PX2 with no problems.

[bubba22]

ZMax let us know how it plays asap.

[ZMax]

Alright, I played a few holes at Sax Gotha. The graphics are just as good as on the P3pro, as they should be. The brightness and contrast adjustments are nice. Put some pop back into the image. P3pro did not have these I don't think.

The GSA interface runs behind the GSA window and only pops out with shot analysis and club information after the ball stops. It is pinned to the taskbar and can be brought up easily for making adjustments.

Adjustments for club head speed, ball carry, ball flight calculation method, putt distance, and more.

Ball flight looks good but seems to have to much side spin rate. My readings that should have been draws were looking like hooks. I see a place to adjust this and will try in a little bit.

I hit a branch once but a couple of times, it just went through. Although, one time I hit a 4 iron through the trees and it only went 134 yards.

Didn't really see any penalties while in the rough or sand. I went into a green side bunker on purpose to see how the ball would come out. Using a 56 deg wedge, the ball came out high like it should, unlike in the P3pro/GSA. So, all that I'll have to do now for the bunker play is to reduce the ball carry or ball velocity for the SW and I'll be able to swing like I'm really in a bunker and it'll come out high and land softly. And this will only affect the bunker club.

It's early but I'm pretty happy at the moment. Martin did tell me that the terrain penalty adjustments will come.

Any questions?

[rdh]

That sounds great ZMax - glad to hear you're up and running with this!

The one thing that interested me there was the comment that you have adjustments for ball carry and ball flight calculation method. I used Martin's integration DLL myself, and it only fed in the normal readings (club angle / path / speed, ball path / speed / launch angle) to GSA Golf, and then left it to the software to calculate the ball flight. If you have adjustments to specifically affect the carry or how the ball flight is calculated, that's very interesting. I'd be curious to know more about how those work. Martin must be doing his own ball spin calculations and feeding those into the red chain software...I believe P3Pro was doing the same thing.

[ZMax]

That sounds great ZMax - glad to hear you're up and running with this!

The one thing that interested me there was the comment that you have adjustments for ball carry and ball flight calculation method. I used Martin's integration DLL myself, and it only fed in the normal readings (club angle / path / speed, ball path / speed / launch angle) to GSA Golf, and then left it to the software to calculate the ball flight. If you have adjustments to specifically affect the carry or how the ball flight is calculated, that's very interesting. I'd be curious to know more about how those work. Martin must be doing his own ball spin calculations and feeding those into the red chain software...I believe P3Pro was doing the same thing.

Yes, P3pro was doing the same thing, which allowed me to improved their ball flight.

Ball flight parameters are basically club head speed, club path/club face ratio, and spin rate. ProX has a few more factors that would allow you to really go nuts with the ball flight.

GSA interface allows you to adjust ball flight for just driver and woods and leave the other clubs at default or adjust ball flight for all.

The key component is club path/club face ratio. The new ball flight rules suggests a ratio of 85 club face to 15 club path. I use 80 and 20. I compare the GSA results with a ball trajectory program. Then I would adjust spin factors to match the ball trajectory program.

The ability to make this adjustment was one of the reasons why I went with this setup.

Also, I forgot to mention that the GSA interface reports my club face and path in 100ths of a deg.

[ZMax]

Also, there isn't anything in the GSA interface that says "ball flight". It's the combination of all the adjustments that I mention previously that will change how the ball behaves in GSA.

[SDL]

ZMax,

Good to see that the new equipment and software are doing "most' of what you want them to do.

Have fun!

SDL

[bubba22]

Fantastic ZMax. I like what I am hearing already and this is early news. Keep up the testing and reporting as you are educating all of us.

[bubba22]

By the way ZMax how are your clubhead speed readings? How do they compare with the P3pro?

[ZMax]

Thanks guys.

Bubba22,

My club head readings are around 85-86. My normal is low 90s. Maybe I just a need few days to loosen up. I haven't really been down in the basement much since I returned my P3pro courses. But at least it was a lot higher than the P3proswing. It's nice that the adjustment is there if I need it.

[bubba22]

Awesome ZMax. I am very happy for you.

[ZMax]

Update:

Bunker play adjustments worked and is looking good. I think I can even taper the reduction in carry distance starting at a particular ball speed. That might allow me to use the bunker club as a chipping club also. We'll see.

Spin rate/curve factor changes are not having any affect for some reason. In club specs, you can change this for every club. This is a key component of ball flight. If this can't be changed, it's a show stopper for me, because the default side spin is too much. I might not be doing it right. I've already fired off an email to Martin.

[rdh]

I found that shots generally hooked/sliced more than I expected in GSA Golf as well. Since I built my own integration program, I built a tweak in for that to turn on "Reduced Shot Variance" for clubs to cut down the side spin by 15%. I don't actually adjust the spin since I'm not controlling that - i actually reduce the club angle and path that I feed to GSA Golf so the club face-relative-to-path angle is reduced and thus spin is reduced. I find with the 15% reduction it plays very accurately. I still struggle to hit fairways (like my real game!) but balls don't hook/slice drastically.