GGS/GSA Simulator

[Dave W]

I cant remember what he told me on the ADX i would be guessing so here's the guess 2700.00 maybe. It works off the shadow of the ball.

You would need a ball track per camera to trigger them.

[bubba22]

So what does the adx measure? Club and ball and launch or just club? It is all a little confusing.

[ZMax]

So what does the adx measure? Club and ball and launch or just club? It is all a little confusing.

ADX sensor mat

System captures club path, face angle, club speed, ball path, ball launch angle and ball speed.

[Dave W]

it measures club in the beginning and ir sensors shoot up and wait for the ball to shadow and it measures speed and la. I think he said it calculates off of formula like p3. I didn't go over the ADX to much. I will call him back and go over everything Monday.

[bubba22]

The last I spoke with Martin he said the ADX would only measure the club and that you could add on to it. I suppose he has changes to now have it measure it all club, ball and launch. If accurate this puts it in the same class as the Pro7. It would be nice to get the specific of this and whether it will come to life.

[ZMax]

He said that he was trying to get it ready for some kind of golf show this month.

I still think a PX2 + LA cam is the best way to go.

[Dave W]

Its not as accurate as the camera from what he said. Ok its coming back a little. He said it depends on the lighting because the shadow will be on an angle and give you a little different reading. I assume this is why he told me the ball must be placed in the exact same spot for calculating.

[bubba22]

Probably right Zmax. Just looking at the cost of either ADX, PX1 and LA or ProTee and LA. I think the accuracy of either will be acceptable, question is the cost.

[bubba22]

I think I will touch basis with Martin this week. I think the ADX will probably have a angled sensors for LA like the Pro7. I will also enquire about the ProTee.

[Dave W]

Just off the phone with Martin.

Vx1 Vx2 ADX not in production as of yet. 4 weeks. They have 2 options of measurement #1 using the shadow method #2 using the IR reflection off the bottom of the ball. He did this for those that want to eliminate the overhead light and not use cameras.

The OEM board or PX1 same thing measures the club angles, speed, impact etc. but it also has a (here you go bubba ) built in trigger for the camera. He says the only problems with cameras is the adjustment and the sensitivity to light changes.

The ball track boards are triggers and sensors that track ball movement to signal cameras and devices. good for putting. System is 5' long.

Dave

[bubba22]

Thanks Dave. Very good work getting the info.

[bubba22]

ZMax the one thing that puzzles me about the camera's for the GSA golf sim is how low a fps rate they have. Not doubting that they are not effective for club, ball, launch or spin but the camera does not possess a very high frame rate. 18 fps to be exact and only slightly higher with a lower resolution.Thinking that you need a high fps rate fore accurate analysis, how does Martin get it done with these numbers? Just a question, not doubting.

[mmlincon]

The camera takes only 1 frame. Depending on the shutter speed, which is greatly dependent on the lighting, the single frame will have a streak which can be used to determine launch and direction. Same principal applies to the club cam I believe. The ball spin is different and a camera with a faster fps would be ideal in my opinion. I believe what happens with the ball spin the is the camera takes a shot of the ball before you hit it ( this will be the original position ) and then a ball trigger in front of the tee will trigger the camera and "freeze" the ball. Based on the change in rotation/spin the axis and spin rate can be calculated. This requires a much faster shutter speed then you would use for the V cam.

[ZMax]

Thanks for the explanation mmlincon.

I don't care for spin because I don't want lines on my balls that might transfer to the screen.

[bubba22]

I see. Why can one not use a good webcam for the LA, Ball direction/speed as well as club data. The ps3eye cam has a higher fps and is much cheaper. Just trying to understand the need for the camera expense.

[Dave W]

Just off the phone with Martin.

Vx1 Vx2 ADX not in production as of yet. 4 weeks. Dave

Forgot the price for the ADX is somewhere in the 3 thousand range. No set price yet.

[ZMax]

mmlincon,

you might have already mention this but I forgot, how do greenside bunker shots look in GSA, with and without LA camera. In P3pro/GSA, they look like chip shots, very unrealistic.

[mmlincon]

agreed, seems like normal chip shots. Haven't noticed much penalty when in the sand or rough. Can't have everything I guess. Sand is always going to be an issue with simulators anyway. I guess the best solution is to get one of the fiberbuilt "sand" surfaces, but I think they are the same as the rough, only white.

[bubba22]

mmlincon are your bunker shots from GSA like chip shots as well? RDH how are your bunker shots? RDH did you modify your bunker shots with your integration program?

[mmlincon]

Technically I'd call it more of a pitch shot, but fairway, sand or rough they react the same from what I can tell. Now I've have some severely up sloped fairway bunker shots that have gone a short distance, but I think that was the slope more than the sand. I think with the GSA software you are better off controlling your hitting surface as apposed to making a change in the software. I know in the ProX software you can assign a penalty to the surface, but that's not real realistic either. If there is a way to do it in the GSA software I haven't found it.

[ZMax]

Technically I'd call it more of a pitch shot, but fairway, sand or rough they react the same from what I can tell. Now I've have some severely up sloped fairway bunker shots that have gone a short distance, but I think that was the slope more than the sand. I think with the GSA software you are better off controlling your hitting surface as apposed to making a change in the software. I know in the ProX software you can assign a penalty to the surface, but that's not real realistic either. If there is a way to do it in the GSA software I haven't found it.

The penalty for different surfaces might come in the next update.

In ProX, using a LW out of the sand looks good and the penalty can be adjusted. Why is this not in GSA?

mmlincon, have you tried using a LW from the sand? Does the ball launch higher compared to a SW? Does the look of the launch not matchup with what is reported by your LA camera(GSA interface)?

Also, can you adjust the trajectory in GSA like you can in ProX?

[bubba22]

Good questions ZMax.

[mmlincon]

Yes, the launch angle makes a difference depending on the club loft. So, a LW will go a bit higher and land softly, but there tends to be more roll than I would expect. The software could be reducing the spin on the ball when in the sand/rough. I will have to pay attention to that the next time I play.

The trajectory options are a lot more limited in the GSA control panel as compared to the ProX interface. As far as I know you don't have the trajectory window I think you are talking about. I'll look into it some more tomorrow.

The control panel has grown a lot since I started with it, so it maybe just a matter of time before these controls get added to it. I don't know how may parameters the GSA software will accept but the more tweaking we can do the better.

[bubba22]

I agree

[ZMax]

Yes, the launch angle makes a difference depending on the club loft. So, a LW will go a bit higher and land softly, but there tends to be more roll than I would expect. The software could be reducing the spin on the ball when in the sand/rough. I will have to pay attention to that the next time I play.

The trajectory options are a lot more limited in the GSA control panel as compared to the ProX interface. As far as I know you don't have the trajectory window I think you are talking about. I'll look into it some more tomorrow.

The control panel has grown a lot since I started with it, so it maybe just a matter of time before these controls get added to it. I don't know how may parameters the GSA software will accept but the more tweaking we can do the better.

Ok, despite the lack of a trajectory window, I think I have a work around that I can use. Obviously can't test this theory until I get GSA.

Also, if you can do me a favor mmlincon, turn off all your cameras and just use the sensor mat. Compare a 60LW with a 56LW from a bunker and let me know how the balls behaves. height, bounce, roll, etc... Try this as close to a typical lip as possible.

Thanks.

[rdh]

Sand shots generally work pretty well for me with my Pro 7 and GSA, but only because I built logic into my integration for it. I implemented a ball speed penalty (percentage) for various surfaces (rough, sand, etc.) and also (because my device has a 40 degree launch angle limit) I added logic to estimate higher launch angles. So, if I'm in the sand I take a sand wedge and open it up and swing moderately hard (not a full sand blast, but close). The ball exceeds the max. launch angle for my device, then my logic kicks in and takes the typical launch angle for a sand wedge and adds a factor for the club being very open (basically adds a degree per degree that the face is open relative to the path) and also the penalty % gets applied, so the ball flight distance and trajectory (high, soft-landing shot) are pretty good. It's certainly not perfect, but it's good.

I agree that any sand shot on a simulator can't be viewed as "realistic" when you're hitting off of green turf just like other shots. That's why the camera-based systems have sand panels to hit out of that are intended to physically mimmick the effect on the ball that sand has (truly cause the ball to come out slower). That's about as close as it gets.

[bubba22]

the sand shots with the camera based sims with the sand turf are nice but not perfect. Nothing can simulate real sand however having that option would be really cool. Very nice that you can modify your interface rdh. Makes for better realism for sure.

[mmlincon]

Ok, did a little testing out of the sand/rough/fairway today.

First the sand. I picked the front left bunker on the Blue Monster with about a 15 yard sand shot. The results were pretty darn close with the camera on/off, when using a straight faced club. Opening up the face is when the V cam starts to shine. I have about a 50 degree limit with my setup, but I could certainly launch the ball on a higher trajectory when the camera was on. With the V cam off I would still launch a shot higher by opening the face, but I would say the V cam was closer. The mat must be taking the open face into account. Keep in mind I have the ball track which still measures direction. I had strange behavior turning it off in software - the mat behaves differently for whatever reason. I don't know what would happen if you only had the mat - I'd almost expect the shot to launch out to the right.

I hit a number of same length shots from the rough/fairway and there was no difference in distance or shot behavior. At this point I'd say there is no penalty for being in the rough. Actually, I'd say there is no difference in the sand either. Best to get a surface that simulates these surfaces and let the simulator detect the change in ball flight as rhn says.

After these test I'm considering adding one of the rough or sand panels. Does anyone know if there is a texture difference between the rough or sand?

[ZMax]

Ok, did a little testing out of the sand/rough/fairway today.

First the sand. I picked the front left bunker on the Blue Monster with about a 15 yard sand shot. The results were pretty darn close with the camera on/off, when using a straight faced club. Opening up the face is when the V cam starts to shine. I have about a 50 degree limit with my setup, but I could certainly launch the ball on a higher trajectory when the camera was on. With the V cam off I would still launch a shot higher by opening the face, but I would say the V cam was closer. The mat must be taking the open face into account. Keep in mind I have the ball track which still measures direction.

Thank you very much for testing that out. It's great to know that the ball sensor will help until I get the LA camera setup.

Quick question. I understand how the LA and H-ball cameras get triggered, but how doe the club camera get triggered? From your mat? What if you're using sand/rough panels?

[bubba22]

This is another reason that I am switching from the P3pro/dd is because of the ball sensor. I think it does add to the accuracy and allow for better estimation of direction, launch, speed, distance and spin. the launch and spin cams are just a real bonus.