GGS/GSA Simulator

[mmlincon]

Hi All,

I'm so excited I just found this forum and have been reading through the older posts. A lot of you have been looking for someone who is using the GGS simulator and I am one. A little history first. I had a p3proswing and it was ok, but the lack of vertical launch was a big problem for me. I limped along with it for a while and was excited when the GSA course became available and purchased them right away. The problem with them was they had a limited hitting distance when using the p3proswing so it was unrealistic. P3 kept saying they were working on it, but never found a solution and offered a buy back program which I took. After a ton of research I went with the GGS system primarily because of the modular nature of the system which would allow me to grow over time. Much easier to get the wife's buy in with small add ons here and there.

So begins my saga with GGS. At the time I purchased the system you could buy a circuit board bundle which included the sensor mat board and the two XD ball tracks. This was all IR based and I went with just the ProX courses. I had to build the casings for the boards which wasn't too difficult. All in all this setup worked pretty good, but the lack of vertical launch was still an issue. So, this year I purchased the vertical launch camera and this has made the system very realistic. I actually feel like I'm playing golf. It was working so good I finally dropped the coin for the GSA courses and it's been wonderful. I did purchase another camera for use with either (club, spin or horizontal ) monitors and have been playing with them to determine which would work best. I'd really like to add spin, but the theory is suspect and the info available is lacking.

So my thoughts on GGS simulators. They can be very good. It is something that requires a lot of tinkering to get working well. If you want something that is turn key then this is probably not the system for you. The comments I've read about Martin and GGS in general have been spot on. Sometimes you get a quick response and sometimes you don't. Most issues Martin will respond quickly and feature requests can go unanswered. For example, with my setup I have to offset the tee location to the right of center because of space issue in my garage where I have this setup. I've requested the option to "move" the center in the GSA system but don't get a response. My P3Pro system had this option, so I don't know why this system can't have it too.

I'm sure I could go on and on here and I'm sure many of you will have questions and I will do what I can to answer them.

[bubba22]

Please mmlincon go on as much as you can. This is the exact feedback we all want. I totally agree with you on the need for launch. Tell us again exactly what your setup is? Can you post some pics? How happy are you with the accuracy? How difficult was it to setup? Your response is perfect for those who are looking to upgrade.

[mmlincon]

Current setup:

PX2 Club track pad ( I built the case for this, but it's basically the same thing )
XD 192 dual ball track ( since adding the camera I disable bank two )
- The dual bank used to calculate the ball speed, but camera does a better job
Vertical Launch Camera ( measures angle and ball speed )
Second Camera ( playing with this now - not sure where it's gonna end up )
Software: Pretty much switched over to the GSA courses/setup now

As far a accuracy is concerned the GGS system are highly configurable. I have found the defaults to be pretty darn close. I've had to bump up max club and ball speed settings. I'm a 5 handicap and hit the ball pretty far and have hit some limits with the defaults. I don't have something else measuring the ball flight so I have to go by my "usual" distances and I'd say it's very accurate. There is the occasional miss hit where I question the projected ball flight, but if you're hitting the ball well it's darn good. I think this maybe attributed to the IR sensors which Martin has recently pointed out on his site.

I'd really like the club track camera except for having to put marks on my clubs, I want to avoid that at all costs. I also had issues with the PX2 and reflected light when trying the camera for club tracking. I think Martin has a single sensor pad that you use when using the club track which would deal with that though.

I've purchases a lot of the equipment "OEM" to keep the costs down. This really has turned into a bit of a hobby as well as a simulator. I wouldn't call the setup overly difficult, but you have to deal with finicky lighting on the IR and camera settings. It definitely helps to be somewhat technical. Once you get everything dialed in and working life is good. I got to the point where I was "well, what now" which is why I ordered another camera. Gives me something to play with on it. - besides golf This is NOT a plug and play simulator though, there is some tuning involved. From my research I would say the aboutGolf simulators are the best ones out there now, but who has +50K they can drop on one. You are paying for a lot of the setup which you do yourself with the GGS systems.

One of the reasons I held off on the GSA courses, prior to the vertical monitor, was the rediculous ball roll on the greens. I'm used to the ball stopping pretty much where it lands. After adding the launch camera the behavior of the ball on the green was much more accurate. I've even had balls suck back on me...very cool! So, a vertical monitor is a MUST for realism.

If I was going to get a system like this now I would go with a H and V camera and either the club IR pad or club camera (I don't want to mark my clubs, so I would probably go with IR ). It looks like Martin will be adding line-width camera for triggering the cameras. That would be cool and eliminate the need for the IR camera trigger.

I'll grab some pics and get them uploaded soon.

[ZMax]

The problem with them was they had a limited hitting distance when using the p3proswing so it was unrealistic. P3 kept saying they were working on it, but never found a solution and offered a buy back program which I took.

Please post in my this thread http://forum.ottawagolf.com/showthread.php?t=57918 about your P3pro problem.

Thanks

[rdh]

It's great to finally get some details on the GGS system components and how they are working - it sounds like overall it's been a positive experience for you. Thanks for taking the time to post! I need to do the same for my Golftek Pro 7...still on my "to do" list (which seems to grow each day rather than shrinking...).

Just so you know (as a fellow GSA Golf user) I am waiting for Dean and the guys at Red Chain to add some tweaks to the software that I think will help make it even better. I posted some details on one of the items in the thread at: http://forum.ottawagolf.com/showthread.php?t=57557. A short list of the changes is as follows though:

1. Setting to say how far your ball is from the screen so that (for putting) GSA Golf depicts the hole and pin realistically. i.e. if you're 7 feet from the screen physically and have an 8 foot putt, the pin would show right at the bottom of the screen. This should enable putting to be done on more of an actual feel basis (i.e. in this case, physically die the putt just at the screen and it should trickle on to the hole).

2. "Bobble" effect. Red Chain has already added this to the PC golf game version of the software (World Golf 2011). It basically shows the ball bouncing a bit as it rolls on the ground, so it looks far more realistic. Right now it rolls perfectly smoothly and looks funny (like it's rolling on a sheet of ice really).

3. This has also been added to the PC golf game version... The ability to (for each player) set the default club to use for chipping. Right now I have to almost always switch to SW as the system always defaults to PW.

4. An option to adjust the camera "tilt" vertically. This is just a cosmetic thing. I find the GSA Golf cameras are a bit "downward" focused at the ground, whereas other software (like 3DD) has the horizon a bit lower (i.e. looking upward a little more). Elevation changes are a bit more dramatic with the view tilted up more, so I'd like to be able to control the "tilt" to see how different settings look. (not sure if this one will happen or not)

[mmlincon]

I did see your post in the other thread....

Re: 1. I know what you mean, but after playing it a bit I can see why it was done the way it was. At least with the current options. It's more like the way you would "plan" the shot in real life which is nice but does take a bit away from a natural feel. You have to carry that image in your minds eye and play the shot and not really use the visual display at that point. I agree, this would be a nice feature. I know that GGS has that option in their ProX software. ProX has the feature where you can map the ball flight impact point on the screen, so the ball continues from the impact point. This doesn't really bother me with the GSA software though, it's so fast.

3. This is something that adding the vertical launch resolved for me. I don't pay attention to the software club selection any more. It's all calculated based on launch angle, so if it says SW and I chip a 7 it will go like a 7. I'm thinking mine might have this option in the player profile - I'll have to check.

It's difficult to tell what is in red chains hands and what is in the hardware vendors hands. One thing I would really like to see is the green grade moving dots like in TigerWoods or HotShots golf. With the green grid it may look flat and the ball will break 6 inches. Having that additional info would make putting a lot more realistic. If you have a way to suggest that to the red chain group I'd love to get that on their list. I tried posting to the requested features forum over there and didn't really get the feeling anyone was looking at it. ( my post was regarding moving the ball center on screen ) I'm probably in the minority with this issue, so I won't hold my breath

[rdh]

On #3... I have the vertical launch, but no spin camera. So, the exact same shot (same ball speed, launch angle, etc.) with different clubs selected will behave differently because the software uses the selected club to calculate spin. It's a huge plus for anyone that has a system that recognizes spin rather than calculating it...you don't need to specify the club you're using any more.

You may have an option in the GGS interface to GSA golf to specify your chipping club - I know Martin has built a lot into his interface. It's currently not in GSA golf itself, but should be soon.

[rdh]

I was thinking about #1 a bit more after your comments, and now I'm rethinking it. If the camera moves like I've suggested, you won't have any way to see the break grid between your ball and the hole. It would make it impossible to know whether to play for a break. Hmm. I guess it would need a further tweak to give some way to quickly "scan out" the view to see the grid and then move back in.

[mmlincon]

#3 That is a very interesting point about the ball spin. I will have to test that out some more by changing clubs. I haven't noticed a big difference on long shots, but it would explain some behaviour I noticed on shorter shots. Guess I should focus on getting the the ball spin camera working which is what I wanted anyway. I'm just not sure the method Martin is using is very accurate, but he sure knows a hell of a lot more than I do.

#1 Yeah, to have the full view of the putt and break I can't think of a way to display it any different with out having to switch back and forth which could be a pain.

[rdh]

I wrote my own integration software to GSA golf, so I was able to confirm the different behaviour by going into practice mode and hitting the same shot with different clubs. i.e. I ran a "test" function in my integration program that let me key in the shot parameters (club speed/path, ball speed/path, launch angle) and have them feed into GSA golf. The exact same parameters fed in on the exact same shot (since practice mode lets you keep hitting from one spot) produce different results...with no wind of course.

[bubba22]

mmlincon is your second camera gonna detect spin? I would think that would be needed to play without having to select the club being used. I would also not be keen on marking the club if you have an all camera system. The ir camera trigger may be an option for that.

[bubba22]

The other question, were you not happy with the club, ball ir tracker and 1 camera for launch? Why the second camera unless you want spin.

[mmlincon]

Actually, I am happy with the club and ball ir with the vertical launch camera. Ideally I'd like to get the spin camera working, which is the main reason I got it. My initial testing with it has not been encouraging, but I haven't reached out to Martin for more details on the setup, so I could be doing it wrong. It didn't even occur to me that the spin was being estimated on the selected club and really the only place I noticed something off was on shorter shots. When hitting longer shots GSA is usually only 2-3 clubs off, so that may not make a huge difference until you start getting into the short club range. I have new incentive to get that going, so I will see what I can get accomplished this week. If I can get the spin cam working I'd have all the critical aspects measured for the most realistic feel.

I've uploaded a couple pics of my setup - I took these with my phone, so they aren't great but you should get the idea.

[bubba22]

Nice setup. I noticed you are using marked balls. Do you need to mark the balls for all camera ball functions? Can you mark your own balls or do you have to buy from Martin?

[mmlincon]

The marked balls are only for the spin cam. They are the same ones Martin is selling, but I bought a whole box from a range distributor. Rumor has it that srixon is going to stop producing them to increase demand so I grabbed them while I could. Much cheaper going with the box.

You can mark you own, but the issue is ink transfer on the screen and clubs. The srixon ball are really nice actually. I'm happy with them even if the spin cam doesn't work out

[mmlincon]

Hey rhn, I just got an update to GSA from Martin. It includes the option to set the preferred chipping club and has the new bobble feature. He's also added a bunch of voice output. Like "open 1 degree" etc. I would assume these changes should show up for the other GSA systems soon.

Oh and btw, you are correct about the club spin, so selecting the club is required for proper spin behavior...bummer. Just need to get this spin cam going.....

[rdh]

I got the update myself on Friday, but didn't install it until today. I had friends over saturday night to play and wanted to wait after that in case there were any issues with the update. I haven't played with it yet really, but did check out the bobble and the new green grid colour - those look great. The chipping club is a great change too. I'm not sure how the new voice output works...hopefully it can be disabled as I'm not really interested in additional speech blurbs coming out...

[ZMax]

Does Martin Do updates for P3pro/GSA also?

On the GGS/GSA, do the GW and LW have correct loft angles?

Thanks

[rdrunner]

Great to see new features being added to GSA software. However as a P3pro user I don't expect to see these updates being passed on to us anytime soon even though I would be willing to pay a reasonable update fee.
I have owned a P3Pro for five years and love the product but sense that so much more value could be added if the company was more involved in communicating with its loyal customers.

Does anyone know what future products or enhancements the company is working on, if any? Would be great if someone from the company would get involved with this forum so various ideas could be exchanged. This would benefit the company and all of us.

[rdh]

I do have to say I'm very impressed with how quick Martin has typically been to pass on GSA software updates to his user community. In this case I heard from Red Chain that they'd released the update to Martin late last week, and within a day he had gotten it posted for download. I was pretty thrilled with how rapid it was, really.

[bubba22]

I doubt that these changes will be available to us P3pro users although I hope I am wrong. A few of us are in the process of modifying some characteristics of the GSA courses so stay tuned.

[rdrunner]

Rdh/bubba

You raise some interesting issues. If GSA is updated by Martin is this something that could be shared among P3Pro users both technically and legally?

[rdh]

Technically I don't think it's possible. P3Pro has their own branded version of the software with their hardware dongle.

[syhlif32]

I have been trying to figure out how the camera based system works. I assume you will have to do some calibration on the camera durring setup to make it work?

Also how fast is the responce of your system. I here mean the delay from you hit the ball to you see the ball projected on the screen?

I could see myself go with a system like yours but might just wait and see if his reflectiv unit works out.

Bjarne

[mmlincon]

I heard back from Martin on the spin camera setup and apparently I need a ball sensor which he is still working on. So, that's on hold for a bit. I may set the second camera up and test out the horizontal view to see if I get increased accuracy. I don't expect to, but it's something I can do with the camera while I'm waiting on the ball sensors.

The camera setup does require calibration and it basically records a streak of the ball and based on the length of the steak it calculates ball speed and determines the launch angle from the tee position and where the ball triggers the camera. You have to calibrate the system to deal with lens curvature but it's not difficult. My install location is rather confined, so the curvature is more pronounced than it would be in locations that have more room.

The updates to GSA do happen very quickly. This update has a few nice features. It would be nice to have an option to turn off the new voice reports though. It's nice when practicing but I don't really want to hear it when I'm playing. It seems like it need a little work too. My kid hits a shot 10 ft and it says "nice shot!", well it was in the fairway! Another new feature is the multi-trace in practice mode.

As far as clubs are concerned; there is club definitions, so you can tune those to match your specific set if you want to take the time to do so.

[ZMax]

mmlincon,

The more I read about GGS the more I like it. The OEM route looks like a great way to save money.

What was the cost for you with just the IR sensor pad and V launch cam?

Thanks.

[mmlincon]

A lot has changed since I got my setup, I don't see the bundle I got listed anymore. I started with the sensor pad and the dual XD ball tracks and I think it was around 3300 for just the boards and ProX software.

I'd say you are looking at around 3500-4000 for the pad, camera trigger/horizontal array and the vertical camera. This is OEM, so you'd have to build the enclosures for the sensor boards. You basically need the camera trigger at this point, but it is used to determine the direction of the shot as well. I see there is a line width camera which would eliminate the need for the camera sensors, but then you need a horizontal camera too. I'm not sure if that is available yet though. If you would like the GSA courses you are looking at another 1500. The proX courses aren't too bad and work well with the system. Might be a good way to start and you can add GSA later. You do get one free GSA course, but it's a bit out dated so you don't get all the bells and whistles that are in the new version.

[ZMax]

Thanks for responding mmlincon,


what does the XD ball track give you that the software can't calculate from swing path and club face at impact? Same question with the H-ball cam. Is it the accuracy of 1 degree?

I'm looking at the OEM page and I see the circuit board for $1000 with Prox and 1 GSA. They also have the pre-milled grass panels for $400. I didn't see a price for the pre-cut PVC but that shouldn't be too much($100?). That looks like a substantial saving compared to buying the retail version of $2400.

I would have to add a V-ball cam and trigger. I didn't see a price for the V-ball cam. Any idea on the price?

$1500 for GSA is not bad considering you 65+ courses.

A Protee with 65 courses and no V-ball cam is around $4000 I believe.

[mmlincon]

You need either the XD ball track or the camera trigger array to trigger the camera to collect the vertical launch and ball speed. The H path isn't absolutely needed, but since you have the trigger the camera you might as well have the measured direction. Any measurement is better than estimated in my opinion.
So, this works via IR and the ball shadow passes over the array and triggers the camera. Accuracy of 1 degree?; well yes and no. The problem is the cone of light. The higher the ball is ( closer to the light ) the bigger the shadow. So you would lose some accuracy. The software deals with this a bit because you set how far the light is from the sensor and with that it can compensate for the growing shadow. Using an H-Cam would deal with this and could eliminate the need for the camera trigger array but you'd still need a way to trigger the cameras. That is where the new line camera comes into play. I could see a huge benefit to this if you could eliminate some over head lighting, but the cameras still needs the ball iluminated so I don't think that could be avoided.

I ordered all the plexi-glass and had them cut it for me. I think it was more than $100, but you maybe able to find someone local which should keep the costs down. As for the grass panels they are fiberbuilt panels and they run around 55. Milling them is a pain, but doable. There is a huge cost savings there and you can order an extra one in case you make a mistake. I have 3 panels now anyway; two for the sensor and one for the through swing.

The price for the cameras have been all over the place (from 1000-4000). Looks like the OEMs are 1400 right now and you would need the lens which is like 200 I think. The camera model I have is the chameleon from ptgrey. I just don't know if they will work if they don't come from GGS. I do know that all camera models must be the same though (if you have more than one).

[ZMax]

About the interface, do you have the ability to adjust various data to alter ball flight, club sets(loft, distance), club head speed, etc...

What about adjustments in the GSA environment? i.e. ball bounce velocity, backspin, etc..

Thanks again for you input.