Wedge Shaft Vs. Iron Shaft

[quinner]

I was recently fit at a Callaway Fitting Centre (At their corporate headquarters actually) and the guy said that I would be better off matching the shaft in my wedges with the shaft in my irons. I am just curious if this is true or is it one of those long standing arguments and it will depend on the player and their preferred feel.

[downhillslider]

Yes !!

[quinner]

It's true, or just a preferred feel thing. I assume it's true...just not sure about your emphatic YES!

[Chieflongtee]

No

Actually it is feel thing. Some wedge shafts have the flex of an 8 iron. Some say they make them softer since they are not using full shots with wedges.
Some want them stiffer to lower ball flight and some punch their wedges to get that penetrating ball flight with 2 hops and a complete stop.

Did the cally guy say why you should do such a swap?

[downhillslider]

Think about it. As good a golfer that you are,are you going to take the advice of some guy because he has a bunch of fancy gagetry to give you an opinion, or, are you going to trust your own feel instincts.

Fitting for wedges is a different box of chocolates.

I said Yes because it is up to you to make the desicion and not rely on other golfer's opinions.

Let us in on why he made this recomendation.

Cheers

[The Saint]

There is good argument here. I have never tinkered with wedge shafts that much. I usually play my wedges with the shafts they came with, usually True Temper wedge flex. If I want a lower tragectory I will play a less lofted wedge.

[downhillslider]

I was recently fit at a Callaway Fitting Centre (At their corporate headquarters actually) and the guy said that I would be better off matching the shaft in my wedges with the shaft in my irons. I am just curious if this is true or is it one of those long standing arguments and it will depend on the player and their preferred feel.

We would really like to know what prompted guy to reccomend this for you.

[BC MIST]

Some say they make them softer since they are not using full shots with wedges.
Some want them stiffer ....to lower ball flight and some punch their wedges to get that penetrating ball flight with 2 hops and a complete stop.

And some want all irons to have the same butt stiffness because their transition tempo is the same with all clubs.

[quinner]

It started because I asked him about wedge shafts (Spinner, etc) and if they were just hype / marketing ploys, and he had said that depending on what you are looking for from your wedges that they could possibly benefit, however I should consider putting the same type of shaft that's in my irons in my wedge shaft. I can't remember if he elaborated as to why or not, but at the time it some what made sense to me. My wedges are just extensions from my irons so why should they have different shafts than the rest of my irons?

The guy works with the Callaway shop guys, plays in Mini tour events and works in this fitting place all day every day, I would assume he would have some sort knowledge around this thing. So I thought I would ask here and see what other people had to say.

[Chieflongtee]

And some want all irons to have the same butt stiffness because their transition tempo is the same with all clubs.

How can you get the same transition tempo when you're swinging at different swing speeds and different distances from the ball and different club weights and lengths? Pretty sure the transition tempo from a driver on a wide open fairway is different than the transition from a wedge at 90 yards from the green.

[leftylucas]

I do not claim to have the same knowledge as those who I repsect here and are clubfitters on this thread but I would prefer to have a shaft with tremendous feel for a wedge. Simply because they are the set of specialized irons which one uses the most variety of shots for different distances etc so why not have specialized shafts that will respond to specialized shots? Maltby recommends much heavier SWs for wedges so having a better feeling shaft seems a logical next step.

[Break68]

I swing both ways on this one.

I just bought new Callaway X-22 SW and LW, and both have the same shaft as my irons, True Temper Uniflex, and I like the feel of them with that shaft.
BUT, my Callaway 50 Degree X-Tour wedge has a True Temper Dynamic Gold S300 shaft in it and I like the feel of that too.
So I don't really know what to recommend.

They both feel good to me. It's a feel thing and I am feel golfer.

[BC MIST]

How can you get the same transition tempo when you're swinging at different swing speeds and different distances from the ball and different club weights and lengths? Pretty sure the transition tempo from a driver on a wide open fairway is different than the transition from a wedge at 90 yards from the green.

Perhaps it is, however, my perceived effort with ALL clubs is the same in that I don't try to swing any harder with my driver than I do with full wedge. At some point my club shaft stops going back and then obviously starts coming down. Why should that start down speed be different with a driver over the full wedge? Yes, the shorter clubs have heavier head weights and different lengths, but those factors are used to determine the constant frequency of the butt section. Using SFM clubs for 25 years or so doesn't seem to have negatively affected my ball striking very much.

Interestingly, an exchange of emails with Tom Wishon regarding the performance of a SFM versus a sloped set got the response that whatever the golfer perceives to be right, IS. I suggested to him that a flexible golfer who increases the wrist hinge significantly at the transition might be better off with a sloped set, whereas one who stops at the top, with no or little additional lag created, would be better off with a constant set. He agreed.

[BC MIST]

They both feel good to me. It's a feel thing and I am feel golfer.

According to Wishon, the #1 and #2 contributions of the shaft to the club are feel and total weight.

[quinner]

I feel as though this next question might be a little premature we the amount of information that I am reading above, but if I were to have specialized shafts in my GW, SW, and LW; I assume that my PW should have the same shaft as my other wedges as it would be used in similar situations. I rarely hit a full PW as is the same with my other wedges.

[downhillslider]

According to Wishon, the #1 and #2 contributions of the shaft to the club are feel and total weight.

Agreed. The weight of the shaft is an "A" contributor to feel of the club.

"A" beeing a major contributor

"B" beeing not as significant.

[Kona Golf]

First I agree with feel (for all clubs for that matter)

Second - Why would you play the shortest club in your bag (ex putter) with the stiffest shaft?

I generally build 9 PW & Wedges the same cpm and softest profile if I use TFT. again its a feeeeel thing!

[Chieflongtee]

Second - Why would you play the shortest club in your bag (ex putter) with the stiffest shaft?

If a player hits the ball really high he may benefit from a stiffer wedge shaft to bring ball flight down.

Agreed. The weight of the shaft is an "A" contributor to feel of the club.

"A" beeing a major contributor

"B" beeing not as significant.

No right or wrong here but imho total weight is just as important. Take a look at the following video from Roy Nix AGCP director. Roy has been fitting for weight for years.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfhOH..._order&list=UL

Interestingly, an exchange of emails with Tom Wishon regarding the performance of a SFM versus a sloped set got the response that whatever the golfer perceives to be right, IS. I suggested to him that a flexible golfer who increases the wrist hinge significantly at the transition might be better off with a sloped set, whereas one who stops at the top, with no or little additional lag created, would be better off with a constant set. He agreed.

Nothing wrong with single frequency matching if it works for you. The wedges and short irons will feel soft. I have always wondered why the woods were not matched to the irons. Of course a 300 cpm driver might feel very boardy. Tom Wishon was also a believer of equal length irons but they never caught on for obvious reasons.

[BC MIST]

Nothing wrong with single frequency matching if it works for you. The wedges and short irons will feel soft. I have always wondered why the woods were not matched to the irons. Of course a 300 cpm driver might feel very boardy. Tom Wishon was also a believer of equal length irons but they never caught on for obvious reasons.

When a golfer hits a perfect golf shot he often states, "Did that ever feel good!" To what was he really referring? Was it the SOUND of the club/ball contact? Was it the sensation of a perfectly TIMED golf swing? Was it the physical sensation of the ball hitting metal transferred up the shaft through the grip to your hands? Was it the lagging club shaft becoming straight exactly at impact? "Feel" in this context, IMO, is relatively meaningless as the only really thing that really counts is performance. A horrible feeling club (usually with a shaft too stiff) but the projects the straight is better than a great feeling club (usually too flexible) that does not.

Yes, the SFM clubs have worked for me, but why would they not work for most others too? Conventional wisdom? Nostalgia? Tradition? Probably. What is the scientific basis for most golfers playing with clubs that are classically mismatched, that is, butt frequencies 4 cpm's apart? (Consistently inconsistent) Would a repeating swing, whether good, bad or indifferent, not be better with clubs that are actually matched by frequency? Are any sets of clubs sold at GT assembled this way? Not a one.

FWIW: It IS interesting when a golfer says that he is a "feel" player. "Feel," in this context does not exist in neuroscience.

[Chieflongtee]

When a golfer hits a perfect golf shot he often states, "Did that ever feel good!" To what was he really referring? Was it the SOUND of the club/ball contact? Was it the sensation of a perfectly TIMED golf swing? Was it the physical sensation of the ball hitting metal transferred up the shaft through the grip to your hands? Was it the lagging club shaft becoming straight exactly at impact? "Feel" in this context, IMO, is relatively meaningless as the only really thing that really counts is performance. A horrible feeling club (usually with a shaft too stiff) but the projects the straight is better than a great feeling club (usually too flexible) that does not.

Yes, the SFM clubs have worked for me, but why would they not work for most others too? Conventional wisdom? Nostalgia? Tradition? Probably. What is the scientific basis for most golfers playing with clubs that are classically mismatched, that is, butt frequencies 4 cpm's apart? (Consistently inconsistent) Would a repeating swing, whether good, bad or indifferent, not be better with clubs that are actually matched by frequency? Are any sets of clubs sold at GT assembled this way? Not a one.

FWIW: It IS interesting when a golfer says that he is a "feel" player. "Feel," in this context does not exist in neuroscience.

While I agree that a ball hit on the sweet spot or near the sweet spot is a great sensation(see I did not write feel) the fact remains that SFM clubs will hit the ball higher than their counterpart and the shafts will flex more.. It does not mean it is good or bad but they will as by matching clubs that way you are leaving more tip section and less butt section. It depends on the golfer and what he likes .A good friend of mine and an excellent golfer is a believer of throwing everything up in the air for a soft landing. Others prefer a different ball flight. To each his own as the objective is to get the ball in the hole in the fewest number of strokesYou have not answered my question though regarding your driver and fw woods. Why are you not matching the frequency of your woods to that of your irons?

[BC MIST]

While I agree that a ball hit on the sweet spot or near the sweet spot is a great sensation(see I did not write feel) the fact remains that SFM clubs will hit the ball higher than their counterpart and the shafts will flex more.. It does not mean it is good or bad but they will as by matching clubs that way you are leaving more tip section and less butt section. It depends on the golfer and what he likes .A good friend of mine and an excellent golfer is a believer of throwing everything up in the air for a soft landing. Others prefer a different ball flight. To each his own as the objective is to get the ball in the hole in the fewest number of strokesYou have not answered my question though regarding your driver and fw woods. Why are you not matching the frequency of your woods to that of your irons?

(1) I am now using OEM woods.

(2) There is an explanation as to why the woods do not match the irons but I don't remember what it is. Being tested by Eric decades ago, I recall my recommendations were 295 irons and 265 for the woods, when drivers were 43". He did explain the reason for the difference, but...

(3) I cannot imagine a shaft being manufactured where, with a 200 g head weight and 46" of length, a frequency of 295 to 320 can be achieved.

(4) Perhaps a stiff tip, soft butt iron shaft would be better for SFM clubs, to compensate for any increase in trajectory for the shorter clubs, with other shafts.

[Chieflongtee]

(1) I am now using OEM woods.

Let me guess. Adams speedline fast 10?

(2) There is an explanation as to why the woods do not match the irons but I don't remember what it is. Being tested by Eric decades ago, I recall my recommendations were 295 irons and 265 for the woods, when drivers were 43". He did explain the reason for the difference, but...

I am assuming that it would be hard to get the ball airborne at 295 with 10* loft. In this particular case it looks like a sloped set. As you know there was more to SFM sets than just single frequency as SS clubs were also butt weighted so EC must also have been a believer in counterweighting and or some sort of MOI matching and/or weight/balance point matching. That being said 295 at 36 falls under a L flex on a sloped set so I am guessing that it fits a swinger better than a hitter.

(3) I cannot imagine a shaft being manufactured where, with a 200 g head weight and 46" of length, a frequency of 295 to 320 can be achieved.

It would probably be close to itting anything with a rebar.

(4) Perhaps a stiff tip, soft butt iron shaft would be better for SFM clubs, to compensate for any increase in trajectory for the shorter clubs, with other shafts.

Some .370 graphite shafts require no tip trimming therfore the set will end up as a
SFM without the golfer knowing about it.

Take a look at this weird tip trimming chart.
http://skfiberc.startlogic.com/tri-tec.html

Irons 1,2,3,6 and 9 butt trim only. Irons 4,7 and PW tip .5". Irons 5,8 and GW thru LW tip 1"

Just to say that nothing is etched in stone and that you can mix and match to your heart's content.

Enjoy your winter

[BC MIST]

so EC must also have been a believer in counterweighting and or some sort of MOI matching and/or weight/balance point matching.

My 2010 set of irons I assembled the EC way. Heavier to pick out of the bag and waggle but "lighter" to swing. More work involved to assemble.

Strange trim chart chart.

The Adams driver IS in the bag simply because it goes farther than anything I have assembled for myself or tried at demo days. A lot of guys at the club have purchased this club for the same reason.

Will do. Thanks and you too.

[Break68]

This will stir the pot a bit:

Here is the Winner's Bag: Robert Karlsson at the Dubai World Championship and the shafts he used to win. They are the same in his irons and wedges. Interesting.

IRONS: Titleist Forged 710 MB (3-PW) with True Temper Dynamic Gold SL shafts

WEDGES: Titleist Vokey Design Spin Milled (56°), TVD (60°) with with True Temper Dynamic Gold SL shafts